798 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

I heard this before. It is not far fetched. The rogue status is more like what you tell morally concious person X when he finds out about it. There is a term for it in the alphabet soup, it is plausible deniability. Possiblely some people that know the truth do not like it but well, it is not like they can do anything about it. Except to smear its name. There might be rivalry, Anderson having Kai or Ash investigate Horizan was honest, and certainly there is a small internal power conflict where some people are trying to expel them.

As for TIM and Cerberus' view on their "rogue" status, they probably like it too. It gives them a little more freedom to do what they want since they don't have to worry about 'bad press' towards the System Alliance in general.

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

"The Council and the Alliance don't want to admit the threat is real." 

It's strongly suggested throughout the game that they know about it. Why the denial? To the old Council (if it's still around) you're untrustworthy. To the Alliance - read the OP. And TIM is manipulative SOB.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Also, EDI tells you in no uncertain terms that Cerberus was able to build the Normandy SR-2 because the operatives and sympathizers in the Alliance convinced the Alliance to co-develop the original Normandy with the Turians in order to study turian ship building techniques. This pretty much destroys your only item of proof if EDI is to be believed, which there is no real reason she can't be.

Can't see how. First, EDI says herself, even after unshackling, that she doesn't have full files on Cerberus. Why would she? She can be captured and interrogated, just like Shepard, or any other agent. Secondly, AFAIK  the exact wording was "Cerberus encouraged the Alliance". Like, you know, "CIA encouraged the US government".

The trick is, you, as Shepard, are not supposed to know the truth and have solid proof of it. Because the day Admiral Hackett tells you "TIM's my old pal", you'll be trasfered to an HQ position and can forget about shooting things. Maybe ME3 will start with such a twist and be a strategy game?

Of course, there could be some incriminating evidence at the Shadow Broker's, but this is one of the most guarded Alliance secrets, so here you are again, only with titbits. The titbit about Hackett was quite telling in its laconic essense.

Maybe that was exactly what Rear Admiral Kahoku got too: "Request denied. Hackett."

I still disagree that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, another reason being Ashley investigating them on Horizon, but your Hackett point is interesting as it could mean one of two things. 

Either he is in TIM's pocket, or he really trusts Shepard.

Given the fact that I resolved a potentially damning situation with a nuclear probe, an issue with an Alliance sponsored warlord, Biotic attacks on medical stations, biotic hostage crises, information gathering from downed probes, and a miriad of other things, I think the idea that he trusts shepard is better supported.

It doesn't mean it is more likely, but it is better supported.

[anmiro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's an outstanding theory, which I have no problems with. Do you have any proof?

There is as much proof for my theory as there is for yours. None. While it is entirely possible, it is only a theory.

[anmiro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And I think you've just said it yourself. You are unwilling to believe my theory, because you dislike TIM, and no amount of proof or evidence or both will ever make you believe it, until BioWare say it themselves (which I doubt they will).

This I completely agree with. Bioware will never give us the full picture. They prefer TIM to remain ambiguous.

[mosor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Either he is in TIM's pocket, or he really trusts Shepard.

Given the fact that I resolved a potentially damning situation with a nuclear probe, an issue with an Alliance sponsored warlord, Biotic attacks on medical stations, biotic hostage crises, information gathering from downed probes, and a miriad of other things, I think the idea that he trusts shepard is better supported.

It doesn't mean it is more likely, but it is better supported.

If he denies the request out of trusting Shepard, then he should be tried for dereliction of duty. Seriously, say your an American general, and you find out one of your trusted officers is running around with Al-Qaeda without any heads up or reasons, and you're gonna just let him carry on without asking questions? That's silly. Trust only goes so far.

[GuardianAngel470]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Either he is in TIM's pocket, or he really trusts Shepard.

Given the fact that I resolved a potentially damning situation with a nuclear probe, an issue with an Alliance sponsored warlord, Biotic attacks on medical stations, biotic hostage crises, information gathering from downed probes, and a miriad of other things, I think the idea that he trusts shepard is better supported.

It doesn't mean it is more likely, but it is better supported.

If he denies the request out of trusting Shepard, then he should be tried for dereliction of duty. Seriously, say your an American general, and you find out one of your trusted officers is running around with Al-Qaeda without any heads up or reasons, and you're gonna just let him carry on without asking questions? That's silly. Trust only goes so far.

Hey, I never said he shouldn't be. You're completely right, the right thing for Hackett to do is to have shepard arrested but hey, either of the two theories paint Hackett in a "Treasonous" light, so it doesn't really matter.

[GuardianAngel470]

anmiro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's an outstanding theory, which I have no problems with. Do you have any proof?

There is as much proof for my theory as there is for yours. None. While it is entirely possible, it is only a theory.

Which means neither is a theory but a hypothesis. 

Semantics, semantics...

*Runs away* 

[anmiro]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's an outstanding theory, which I have no problems with. Do you have any proof?

There is as much proof for my theory as there is for yours. None. While it is entirely possible, it is only a theory.

Which means neither is a theory but a hypothesis. 

Semantics, semantics...

*Runs away* 

 My point is proving that something is possible and that its true are two different things. 

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I still disagree that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, another reason being Ashley investigating them on Horizon, but your Hackett point is interesting as it could mean one of two things. 

The VS on Horizon was most likely Anderson's initiative. Kaidan had been Anderson's officer on the 1st Normandy, probably even before Shepard was transfered there. Ashley had been assigned to the 1st Normandy per Anderson's request in contrast with the previous Alliance routine of keeping General Williams' grand-daughter on garrison duty. So see for yourself, there must be a lot of personal loyalty involved. Given Anderson's files at the Shadow Broker's and actions in Retribution, it's clear that he hates the Alliance for what it is. Maybe he wants some kind of a "better future" for it, sans-Cerberus, which he may suspect as being not so "rogue" as the Alliance pretends to maintain. So he is fighting his "good fight", and this Horizon "investigation" does not prove that Cerberus is actually at odds with the Alliance. It only proves that Anderson and his people are at odds with Cerberus.

This could even reflect some infighting in the Alliance itself, or between major corporations (some of which may be not so happy that they have to make certain lavish contributions to only-god-know-who to have the same priviliges as their business competitors...) or even between some Earth nations. Or any mix of those. All politics, dirty politics.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Given the fact that I resolved a potentially damning situation with a nuclear probe, an issue with an Alliance sponsored warlord, Biotic attacks on medical stations, biotic hostage crises, information gathering from downed probes, and a miriad of other things, I think the idea that he trusts shepard is better supported.

It doesn't mean it is more likely, but it is better supported.

That's unsurprising, seeing how you play as Shepard, and not as TIM. However, Hackett's been around a lot longer than Shepard. And BTW where is all the difference between TIM and Hackett? Both use Shepard to clean some mess up. Someone's even joked recently about the possibility, that TIM is Admiral Hackett.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

If he denies the request out of trusting Shepard, then he should be tried for dereliction of duty. Seriously, say your an American general, and you find out one of your trusted officers is running around with Al-Qaeda without any heads up or reasons, and you're gonna just let him carry on without asking questions? That's silly. Trust only goes so far.

Hey, I never said he shouldn't be. You're completely right, the right thing for Hackett to do is to have shepard arrested but hey, either of the two theories paint Hackett in a "Treasonous" light, so it doesn't really matter.

My theory only paints Anderson in treasonous light (and that's what people very much dislike about it). It paints Hackett in the light of an very well informed man. He is actually the most powerful person in the Alliance Shepard gets ever to interact with (can be challenged by Udina, but seeing how Hackett is in the military, he'd have access to a lot more classified information at his level of hierarchy).
Your "theory" only handwaves the problem.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[StarcloudSWG]

The thing is, at the point that Alliance Intelligence is considering picking Shepard up, Shepard's been MIA for two years. Shepard is, technically, no longer a Commander in the Alliance military. So what they were proposing was to kidnap and interrogate a private citizen, and possibly a Spectre.



Further, Anderson learned what Shepard was up to, and doubtless told Hackett. Weighing the urgency of Shepard's mission to find out what happened to the missing colonies and stopping the abductions, vs. balancing out Alliance Intel's not nearly so urgent curiousity about what happened to Shepard, Hackett made the correct call from a command/strategic point of view.

[Sundance31us]

I don't know if someone mentioned this already...

In the Kasumi: Stealing Memory quest Keiji Okuda says that the information contained in his grey box could incriminate the Alliance. Although we're not allowed to see the information ourselves it does show that the Alliance is up to something unsavory.

[TurbanSoviet]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Either he is in TIM's pocket, or he really trusts Shepard.

Given the fact that I resolved a potentially damning situation with a nuclear probe, an issue with an Alliance sponsored warlord, Biotic attacks on medical stations, biotic hostage crises, information gathering from downed probes, and a miriad of other things, I think the idea that he trusts shepard is better supported.

It doesn't mean it is more likely, but it is better supported.

If he denies the request out of trusting Shepard, then he should be tried for dereliction of duty. Seriously, say your an American general, and you find out one of your trusted officers is running around with Al-Qaeda without any heads up or reasons, and you're gonna just let him carry on without asking questions? That's silly. Trust only goes so far.

Hey, I never said he shouldn't be. You're completely right, the right thing for Hackett to do is to have shepard arrested but hey, either of the two theories paint Hackett in a "Treasonous" light, so it doesn't really matter.

you have to realize that shepard is/was a spectre so he has to assume that shepard is doing good
e.x. sort of like when the cops have a undercover that starts to do drug but that person might have to do drugs or rob a store in order to get undercover into the group

[Terraneaux]

Zulu, you still have no evidence. Your rampant fanboyism for TIM is not enough to justify Cerberus being part of the alliance.

[Lumikki]

System Alliance and Cerberus

[Zulu_DFA]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The thing is, at the point that Alliance Intelligence is considering picking Shepard up, Shepard's been MIA for two years. Shepard is, technically, no longer a Commander in the Alliance military. So what they were proposing was to kidnap and interrogate a private citizen, and possibly a Spectre.

Hackett had Shepard's dog tags, which meant the "MIA" switched to "KIA". Then he learnt that Shepard was alive, and running with Cerberus. Feigning own death is not your typical retirement plan in the military. So Shepard is simply AWOL.

StarcloudSWG wrote...
Further, Anderson learned what Shepard was up to, and doubtless told Hackett.

Then Anderson decided to get drunk and watch some vids about how bad the Alliance was.

StarcloudSWG wrote...
Weighing the urgency of Shepard's mission to find out what happened to the missing colonies and stopping the abductions, vs. balancing out Alliance Intel's not nearly so urgent curiousity about what happened to Shepard, Hackett made the correct call from a command/strategic point of view.

No, he just needed someone to collect the remaining 20 dog tags from the Normandy crash site and put the darn monument there, to clear out his own red tape. Hence, "request denied".

Sundance31us wrote...

I don't know if someone mentioned this already...
In the Kasumi: Stealing Memory quest Keiji Okuda says that the information contained in his grey box could incriminate the Alliance. Although we're not allowed to see the information ourselves it does show that the Alliance is up to something unsavory.

Yes, this has been brought up.

The odd thing is that there was no option to send the graybox to Cerberus which TIM would be interested in, if he didn't know the secret. Neither TIM demanded to destroy the graybox as if he didn't mind if it remained a secret or not... So what was his angle in all this?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu, you still have no evidence. Your rampant fanboyism for TIM is not enough to justify Cerberus being part of the alliance.

Frankly, part of my rampant fanboyism for TIM wants him to go all George Washington -style on the Alliance's royal arses. That is: Rogue-Revolutionary-Hero. However, with all the info available, I can clearly see that it's Anderson who fits the role. At least in the "Rogue" part. So no, I'll stick with TIM and that means Empire.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Frankly, part of my rampant fanboyism for TIM wants him to go all George Washington -style on the Alliance's royal arses. That is: Rogue-Revolutionary-Hero. However, with all the info available, I can clearly see that it's Anderson who fits the role. At least in the "Rogue" part. So no, I'll stick with TIM and that means Empire.

That's cool.  Guess what, this is exactly why I said the writers' decision to make TIM out to be some kind of omnicompetent mastermind was a bad idea - people like you glom onto them and like them more than the user-defined main character.  

Your comparison of TIM to George Washington tells a lot about you, actually, equating a muderous corporate shill with the first president of our nation.

[Zulu_DFA]

Haven't I promptly said, that he does not exactly equate?

[mosor]

TurbanSoviet wrote...


you have to realize that shepard is/was a spectre so he has to assume that shepard is doing good
e.x. sort of like when the cops have a undercover that starts to do drug but that person might have to do drugs or rob a store in order to get undercover into the group

He's a spectre like Saren. Assuming Saren was doing good proved costly to the council. As for the cop example, undercover cops let their captains know they're doing a sting (More likely ordered by the captain).  They don't go off joining the mafia on their own, and hope thier police bosses will assume they're under cover.

Modifié par mosor, 15 octobre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Arijharn]

TIM isn't omnipotent, otherwise he'd be able to stop Pragia etc before they worry about TIM asking for the operational reports... again.

[lovgreno]

anmiro wrote...
 My point is proving that something is possible and that its true are two different things. 

My opinion exactly. Especialy in a story like Mass Effect where nothing is supposed to be easy or perfect. Trying to prove that one option or truth is the right one in this game is futile. Wich doesn't mean we shouldn't theorise about it just for the fun of course.

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...

Especialy in a story like Mass Effect where nothing is supposed to be easy or perfect.

It looks to me like I've tried to make my theory as elaborate and sophisticated as possible.

As opposed to the easy way of calling Cerberus "rogue" "terrorist" "xenophobes", which leaves a lot of... imperfectly explained questions.

[Inverness Moon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Haven't I promptly said, that he does not exactly equate?

Some people don't let things like facts stop their ranting.

[aDuck]

Just looking at ME1, and it looks like at that time, cerberus is definately linked with the alliance.

If you listen to Admiral Hackett when you are in-system to the "Dead Scientist" mission (Keppler Verge, Newton system), Hackett says that he cant tell sheperd what was going on because "the files are sealed". Pretty sure this means that they have Cerberus' data, but its off limits because of its top secret clearence.



Not so sure about ME2. Cerberus has been publicly acknowledged as a terrorist organisation, so maybe because of the events in Ascension, Cerberus has been cut off from the Alliance.

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...

Just looking at ME1, and it looks like at that time, cerberus is definately linked with the alliance.
If you listen to Admiral Hackett when you are in-system to the "Dead Scientist" mission (Keppler Verge, Newton system), Hackett says that he cant tell sheperd what was going on because "the files are sealed". Pretty sure this means that they have Cerberus' data, but its off limits because of its top secret clearence.

This is the best piece of "evidence" we have. But people would still deny it, rather calling Hackett a traitor, than shattering the Alliance's crystal reputation... Just as the Alliance itself would do in-game, if Hackett were ever exposed.

aDuck wrote...
Not so sure about ME2. Cerberus has been publicly acknowledged as a terrorist organisation, so maybe because of the events in Ascension, Cerberus has been cut off from the Alliance.

Even without Ascension, in ME2 the Alliance has got a lot more responsibility, than in ME1, being a Council member (and maybe even the leader) state. So they have to pump up the propaganda.

Howerer, if you listen carefully to the conversation between TIM and Miranda in the very beginning of the ME2 intro, you can get an impression that Shepard had been put forward (and therefore throught the all the ME1 events) on Cerberus' initiative! Meaning, of course, that Udina and Hackett are nothing but "Cerberus infiltrators", right?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:34 .

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Even without Ascension, in ME2 the Alliance has a lot more responsibility, than in ME2, being a Council member (and maybe even the leader) state. So they have to pump up the propaganda.

Howerer, if you listen carefully to the conversation between TIM and Miranda in the very beginning of the ME2 intro, you can get an impression that Shepard had been put forward (and therefore throught the all the ME1 events) on Cerberus' initiative! Meaning, of course, that Udina and Hackett are nothing but "Cerberus infiltrators", right?

Pretty sure you mean "in ME1 ... than in ME2"

I see that more as TIM is obsessed with information.  He probably had a few informats keeping tabs on Sheperd, as opposed to Udina or Hackett being "Cerberus infiltrators".  Udina, maybe (more or less because he is always squeezing in on the council), but Hackett seems more like he's Alliance to the core.  If he was part of Cerberus, he would probably have had access to the files for the Dead Scientists mission.

Anyway, I reckon TIM would have been interested in Sheperd from the biginning (first human Spectre), and it just got better for him when he found out about Sheperd conquering Saren and Sovereign (striking down a feared turian, and a giant artificially intelligent spaceship).  So he naturally saw him/her as an ideal person for the job.