798 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...

Pretty sure you mean "in ME1 ... than in ME2"

What?

aDuck wrote...
but Hackett seems more like he's Alliance to the core.  If he was part of Cerberus, he would probably have had access to the files for the Dead Scientists mission.

TIM is also an "Alliance to the core" type, only with "vision".

And Hackett did have access to the files. Shepard didn't. That's what they call "clearence".

aDuck wrote...
Anyway, I reckon TIM would have been interested in Sheperd from the biginning (first human Spectre), and it just got better for him when he found out about Sheperd conquering Saren and Sovereign (striking down a feared turian, and a giant artificially intelligent spaceship).  So he naturally saw him/her as an ideal person for the job.

This should be more likely, given the fact that TIM would not be interested in the Paragon Shepard without the ME1 background. But don't forget that the Default "Loo" Shepard is not a paragon.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Geowil]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PROOF:

The Normandy SR-1 was a state-of-the-art never-before-seen advanced prototype military spacecraft. There is no doubt that the stealth technology and the Tantalus drive core were top secret designs, which applied to all the materials and alloys used in the production. Thus, the Systems Alliance's had to send a mission to destroy the Normandy's debris on the crash site. Bomb the crash site itself out of existence by an anti-matter weapon, like those reportedly used for "containment" protocols on Noveria. Hire a merc band to carry it out, if sending an Alliance ship was impossible.

Yet, Admiral Hackett never gave the order. Neither immediately after the disaster, nor at any point later, although the site's coordinates were known to him. So why the criminal negligence on the job? Or did the Alliance Command have other plans for the crash site? That's quite possible. Rather than outright destroy the debris, the brass could have decided to wait and see, who might go after them. Who would be interested in the stealth technology so much as to send an expedition to the crash site? Maybe the Batarian "rogue state"? Or maybe the Turian allies?

So, who do you assign to carry out such a task? Right, your intelligence agency. But why was it Cerberus, that kept watch over who goes to Alchera and for what purpose? Why was TIM holding back, and didn't send his own men down there (although in the ME2 intro he expressed interest in not losing Shepard)?

The answer is: Admiral Hackett was relying on Cerberus to carry out the task that he had to have carried out as a matter of his Alliance fleet admiral's duties.

***

And after Shepard's near-corpse was eventually delivered to Cerberus, TIM ordered to send the Commander's dog tags to Admiral Hackett, to have the KIA status officially declared.

____________________________________________________________________________

See also: WHAT THIS KAHOKU'S "ROGUE" WORD WAS EVEN SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

I highly doubt that this is true, I can see many holes in your so called "proof" here.  I can see why you might think that the Alliance would want to destroy the Normandy wreckage, but the reasoning just doesn't pan out.

No one else knows exactly where the Normandy crashes except for the Alliance ( and except the Shadow Broker at first, he sells the information to Cerberus).

They obviously did not want to destroy the site as they send Shepard down there to plant a memorial statue and collect the dog tags.

The normandy's design is likely already stolen, likely by the Shadow Broker.  It would do little good to destroy the wreckage.  While the Alliance might not know that they may also have been preasured by the survivors and families of those that died to not destroy the wrekage.

You say that when EDI says that Cerberus suggests that the Alliance should build the Normandy, that that is proof that they are still part of the Alliance.  I don't see this as solid evidance, but as a supposition.  It is well established that Cerberus has moles in the Alliance, I think The Illusive Man even says this at some point.  Sure, at the time they might have been part of the Alliance, but I do not think they are anymore.

Go read through the Dossiers at the Shadow Broker's lair, he had a lot of information on Cerberus.  I can't remember it all off the top of my head, but it listed everything that Cerberus had its hands in, and the reason for why the Alliance kicked themout or they went rouge is likely in there.

Also, during ME1 Hackett gives you several missions where he tells you to go and destroy Cerberus outposts and calls them a Rouge branch of the Military, then you also have Kohaku.  His entire team was killed by Cerberus and later he was as well.  If Cerberus was indeed part of the Alliance what justification is there for those killings?

Also, if Cerberus is really Alliance, why does Admiral Anderson say that he can't help you while Shepard is with Cerberus.  Maybe it is to look good for the council or maybe he does not know.  More likely it is because they aren't connected anymore.

If you can bring solid, irrefutable proof that Cerberus is really still with the Alliance then I might beleive it, like some kind of lore or obscured text in the game or books that implies it directly.  Till then there is just too much evidance to the contrary.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What does this word "ROGUE" even mean???

rogue  (rg)n.

1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.

adj.

1. Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
2. Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
3.
Operating outside normal or desirable controls: "How could a single
rogue trader bring down an otherwise profitable and well-regarded
institution?" (Saul Hansell).

v. rogued, rogu·ing, rogues v.tr.

1. To defraud.

[b]2. To remove (diseased or abnormal specimens) from a group of plants of
the same variety. <-- I think this one appies most to Cerberus. 
In the form that is put forth in the game, some of the other definitions
also fit though.

v.intr.

To remove diseased or abnormal plants.

Modifié par Geowil, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Geowil]

wrong button

Modifié par Geowil, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Geowil wrote...

I highly doubt that this is true, I can see many holes in your so called "proof" here.  I can see why you might think that the Alliance would want to destroy the Normandy wreckage, but the reasoning just doesn't pan out.

No one else knows exactly where the Normandy crashes except for the Alliance ( and except the Shadow Broker at first, he sells the information to Cerberus).

They obviously did not want to destroy the site as they send Shepard down there to plant a memorial statue and collect the dog tags.

The normandy's design is likely already stolen, likely by the Shadow Broker. It would do little good to destroy the wreckage. While the Alliance might not know that they may also have been preasured by the survivors and families of those that died to not destroy the wrekage. 

You say that when EDI says that Cerberus suggests that the Alliance should build the Normandy, that that is proof that they are still part of the Alliance.  I don't see this as solid evidance, but as a supposition.  It is well established that Cerberus has moles in the Alliance, I think The Illusive Man even says this at some point.  Sure, at the time they might have been part of the Alliance, but I do not think they are anymore.

Go read through the Dossiers at the Shadow Broker's lair, he had a lot of information on Cerberus.  I can't remember it all off the top of my head, but it listed everything that Cerberus had its hands in, and the reason for why the Alliance kicked themout or they went rouge is likely in there.

Also, during ME1 Hackett gives you several missions where he tells you to go and destroy Cerberus outposts and calls them a Rouge branch of the Military, then you also have Kohaku.  His entire team was killed by Cerberus and later he was as well.  If Cerberus was indeed part of the Alliance what justification is there for those killings?

Also, if Cerberus is really Alliance, why does Admiral Anderson say that he can't help you while Shepard is with Cerberus.  Maybe it is to look good for the council or maybe he does not know.  More likely it is because they aren't connected anymore.

If you can bring solid, irrefutable proof that Cerberus is really still with the Alliance then I might beleive it, like some kind of lore or obscured text in the game or books that implies it directly.  Till then there is just too much evidance to the contrary.

Red = wrong
Orange = baseless supposition
Yellow = supposition

Geowil wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What does this word "ROGUE" even mean???

rogue  (rg)[i]n.
...
...

Thank you, I know that the word "rogue" has several synonymic (and not quite so) meanings. I was asking which one of them Kahoku had in mind. Because as I've shown by the example in my post, some people use it to describe a situation where the "unit" in question is by no means uncontrollable or at odds with higher elements in the chain of command.

[SagaciousTien]

Definitely plausible. Having Shepherd unknowingly clean house for Cerberus interests in ME1 makes me question how I felt about their experiments. Makes me question what I read of them in the novels. While I've always felt that their interests and their backers are those in the Alliance who can't officially be on their team, I always felt that there was an official line between the two. Your argument makes that line blurred.

[aDuck]

Interesting quote from Retribution (in the prologue where TIM is monologuing, for lack of a better term):



"...before he had founded Cerberus; before he had become the Illusive Man, the self proclaimer of humanity; before the Alliance and their alien allies on the Citadel Council had branded him and his followers terrorists.""

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

TIM is also an "Alliance to the core" type, only with "vision".

And Hackett did have access to the files. Shepard didn't. That's what they call "clearence".

Where does he have access to the files?  He says they're sealed.  Nothing says he cant tell Shepard because Shepard isnt allowed to.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...
Anyway, I reckon TIM would have been interested in Sheperd from the biginning (first human Spectre), and it just got better for him when he found out about Sheperd conquering Saren and Sovereign (striking down a feared turian, and a giant artificially intelligent spaceship).  So he naturally saw him/her as an ideal person for the job.

This should be more likely, given the fact that TIM would not be interested in the Paragon Shepard without the ME1 background. But don't forget that the Default "Loo" Shepard is not a paragon.

Not too sure that he wouldnt be interested in paragon Shepard.  He still has performed all of the tasks as renegade Shepard (without the grudge against aliens though).  TIM actually has no missions that have Shepard killing aliens because theyre aliens.  It is to save humans from the collectors, but why wouldnt paragon Shepard do that too?  Ultimately they achieve the same goals.
Summary, paragon Shep would still work for TIM because theyre saving humans and dont have to be racist

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

TIM is also an "Alliance to the core" type, only with "vision".

And Hackett did have access to the files. Shepard didn't. That's what they call "clearence".

Where does he have access to the files?  He says they're sealed.  Nothing says he cant tell Shepard because Shepard isnt allowed to.

Hackett  is the highest ranking Alliance man you meet (oh, wait...) in the game. If anyone, he would have access to the top secret files, and maybe something that's not even in the files.

Shepard has been only a mid ranking officer in the Alliance, up until he is issued his last order: become a Council spectre. At this point, his Alliance clearence (what little he's had of it) must be suspended, as he serves foreign interests.

aDuck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...
Anyway, I reckon TIM would have been interested in Sheperd from the biginning (first human Spectre), and it just got better for him when he found out about Sheperd conquering Saren and Sovereign (striking down a feared turian, and a giant artificially intelligent spaceship).  So he naturally saw him/her as an ideal person for the job.

This should be more likely, given the fact that TIM would not be interested in the Paragon Shepard without the ME1 background. But don't forget that the Default "Loo" Shepard is not a paragon.

Not too sure that he wouldnt be interested in paragon Shepard.  He still has performed all of the tasks as renegade Shepard (without the grudge against aliens though).

That's what I say. In ME2 TIM says that Shepard is "a symbol". At this point he is interested in Shepard regardless. But before ME1 the Paragon Shepard was just not "Cerberus material", hence TIM was not the one who put him on the Udina's list. Too bad. This version would work perfectly for the Renegade Shepard.

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Hackett  is the highest ranking Alliance man you meet (oh, wait...) in the game. If anyone, he would have access to the top secret files, and maybe something that's not even in the files.

Shepard has been only a mid ranking officer in the Alliance, up until he is issued his last order: become a Council spectre. At this point, his Alliance clearence (what little he's had of it) must be suspended, as he serves foreign interests.

Lots of speculation here.  Just because Hackett is an admiral, doesn't mean he has clearence for seeing Cerberus' files.  Ill repeat what he said: "the files are sealed".  To me, this looks like he doesnt have access to the files, considering he cant "open" them, as opposed to him knowing, and not being able to tell Shep.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
That's what I say. In ME2 TIM says that Shepard is "a symbol". At this point he is interested in Shepard regardless. But before ME1 the Paragon Shepard was just not "Cerberus material", hence TIM was not the one who put him on the Udina's list. Too bad. This version would work perfectly for the Renegade Shepard.

Not 100% where your going with this, but ill run with it.  Not entirely sure that TIM would be putting Sheperds name on the list (believe it if you want though ), and we didnt see any help from Cerberus through the entire game.  I wouldve thought if TIM had anything to do with the events of ME1, he wouldve introduced a few of his "followers" to Shep to show that they were doing good, as opposed to Shep seeing all the bad stuff (Kohoku and the Rachni/Thorians, the Dragons Teeth Cerberus put on the colonies, etc).

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...
Just because Hackett is an admiral, doesn't mean he has clearence for seeing Cerberus' files.  Ill repeat what he said: "the files are sealed".  To me, this looks like he doesnt have access to the files, considering he cant "open" them, as opposed to him knowing, and not being able to tell Shep.

I'm not sure that was Hackett's exact wording. But never mind, it's even worse if such a man as him can't have access to those files. Seriously, the commanding officer of the most powerful Human star fleet is kept in the dark about "terrorists" posing as Alliance researchers and killing about 50 marines and an unspecified number of civilians just a few years back? Huh. And some people dare say "Anderson would know". You, guys, should reach some consensus about who knows what in the Alliance.

But again, in the LotSB there are two independent indications of Hackett's possible connection to Cerberus: the "request denied" and the dog tags.

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm not sure that was Hackett's exact wording. But never mind, it's even worse if such a man as him can't have access to those files. Seriously, the commanding officer of the most powerful Human star fleet is kept in the dark about "terrorists" posing as Alliance researchers and killing about 50 marines and an unspecified number of civilians just a few years back? Huh. And some people dare say "Anderson would know". You, guys, should reach some consensus about who knows what in the Alliance.

But again, in the LotSB there are two independent indications of Hackett's possible connection to Cerberus: the "request denied" and the dog tags.

Well i did write the quote down as soon as i started the mission, and was the whole reason i got into this thread.
As for Hackett not knowing about the activities, I would only assume that it's because Cerberus activities were on a need to know basis, and Hackett didnt need to know.
The only plausable hypothesis i have for the dog tags is that they were given back to the Alliance, which confirmed to them that Shepard was dead.  When Hackett found out that he wasn't dead, he passed them on to Liara (an information broker and a former team member of Shepard) to pass them on.
And please dont generalise when people disagree with your ideas.  Of course everyones not going to have the same views as who knows what in the Alliance.  This is because we are humans.  "If there are 4 humans in a room, there will be 8 different opinions" or something like that.

[aDuck]

Going back to ME2, its pretty clear that Cerberus has indeed separated from the Alliance.

Miranda says these lines:

"We keep out ranks and structure similar to the Alliance; a lot of our recruits started there"

After asked who keeps Cerberus in check: "Nobody. We're privately funded, and our backers trust [TIM] to make the right decisions."



Just more lines to think about

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...

Well i did write the quote down as soon as i started the mission, and was the whole reason i got into this thread.
As for Hackett not knowing about the activities, I would only assume that it's because Cerberus activities were on a need to know basis, and Hackett didnt need to know.

And the only reason to keep it from Hackett could be that he was out of the loop. But if Cerberus was indeed rogue and uncontrollable, and TIM did not maintain contact with the Alliance's policy makers, then there would be no loop to keep Hackett out of.

aDuck wrote...
The only plausable hypothesis i have for the dog tags is that they were given back to the Alliance, which confirmed to them that Shepard was dead.  When Hackett found out that he wasn't dead, he passed them on to Liara (an information broker and a former team member of Shepard) to pass them on.

That's pretty much it. Rather harmless of its own. But what about the "request denied"? I have yet to see a plausible non-Cerberus explanation other than laughable "Hackett trusts Shepard too much".

aDuck wrote...

Going back to ME2, its pretty clear that Cerberus has indeed separated from the Alliance.
Miranda says these lines:

Miranda doesn't know the truth. She goes in the field, so she gets to know only what she needs for her current mission.

According to this theory only a few people in Cerberus know that they do dirty stuff on the Alliance's behalf. This includes TIM and people in the Cerberus Command, who never ever venture out on the ops themselves.

Likewise, in the Alliance only the top staff (or a small circle, if you will) knows about Cerberus' real essense.

To everybody else Cerberus is what it's been always reported to be - an extremist group, "avowed enemy" of the Alliance (although an obscure one, that hits the news quite rarely). This includes aliens, Alliance public, Alliance marines, Alliance rear admirals (who upon discovery of the Cerberus' origins immediately die "of natural causes"). And this also includes Cerberus' own field operatives and agents.

It's a "dirty secret", and dirty secrets remain such because everyone who uncovers them gets killed. The Alliance does have such secrets. Take the Kasumi's "stolen memories". They got not only her boyfriend killed, but also the man who killed him... And it wasn't an Alliance team that broke into Hock's vault. It was a rogue specte with an e-mail from Cerberus on his lap-top.

Maybe Cerberus was never on the Alliance papers, but it was blessed by the Alliance honchos and became an important element of the Alliance's political system which has been (and remains) to be relied on under many circumstances.

Call it a conspiracy or whatever. But it's not at all surprising, seeing how the Alliance is a sort of syndicate itself.

Anyway, how do you explain the total lack of seditionist or revolutionist tendencies in Cerberus, despite the ever present "we're better" underscore? Even in the Karpyshyn's novels?

aDuck wrote...
After asked who keeps Cerberus in check: "Nobody. We're privately funded, and our backers trust [TIM] to make the right decisions."

Can't you see a self-contradiction here? Nobody, except the backers who trust TIM, means TIM has to  maintain the trust, or they'll cease to back him.

But Miranda is known to be "never wrong". Like she was about Niket.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

aDuck wrote...

Going back to ME2, its pretty clear that Cerberus has indeed separated from the Alliance.
Miranda says these lines:
"We keep out ranks and structure similar to the Alliance; a lot of our recruits started there"
After asked who keeps Cerberus in check: "Nobody. We're privately funded, and our backers trust [TIM] to make the right decisions."

Just more lines to think about

While I don't agree with the extent of Zulu's theory, those two in and of themselves don't prove a lack of connection. The first would be a sign of connection if anything, and the second is just how no one (including the Alliance) holds the purse strings over Cerberus... which is almost exactly how the Council Spectres work. The Council deliberately withholds oversight under all but the most extreme cases, and leaves it to Spectres to finance themselves, ie leaving them beholden to no higher authority for anything but political justification.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hackett let the Council die.... bad Hackett.. bad...

[Saremei]

I am a believer myself. Regardless if Cerberus is backed by the majority of high ranking Alliance officials, they have significant ties to a large portion of the Alliance military industrial complex.



Lets also keep in mind that the alliance itself is not a government organization, but a military defense force. The governments on earth are still separate entities in mass effect. The Systems Alliance just formed out of necessity to defend humanity from any extraterrestrial threats.

[Dean_the_Young]

It is a government. It's just extremely limited in its role on Earth. Otherwise, it's The colonial authority.

[SagaciousTien]

Saremei wrote...

I am a believer myself. Regardless if Cerberus is backed by the majority of high ranking Alliance officials, they have significant ties to a large portion of the Alliance military industrial complex.

Lets also keep in mind that the alliance itself is not a government organization, but a military defense force. The governments on earth are still separate entities in mass effect. The Systems Alliance just formed out of necessity to defend humanity from any extraterrestrial threats.

I would state that The Systems Alliance is a government, as it does have an embassy on the Citidel. I would just hazard a guess that it has a very minor role in earth based policy, and more in humanity's policy and defence.

[SimonTheFrog]

The way all the bits and pieces fit together i strongly believe that Alliance and Cerberus coexist with strong mutual links. I wouldn't put too much thought about whether that means "rogue" or "black ops" or what because it kinda doesn't matter. Fact seems that the higher ups on alliance side rely on Cerberus doing its job and backing them up with funds and even science teams and Cerberus granting the alliance the fruits of it labor.

And because Cerberus does heartless sh!t that no PR devision could possibly spin into something good, that's all in hush-hush-mode.

I wonder though how Shepard can have contacts on the Citadel if (s)he is pretty openly part of Cerberus now. A lot of people seem to know that (even if its argued that the Cerberus-symbols on the Normandy2 are from a legal front company). And even if Anderson or other humans might no mind because they kinda guess that Cerberus is not so terrorist after all, the aliens should mind, because Cerberus is clearly anti-alien in its goals as in human dominance in the galaxy. So, for example i, as an alien, wouldn't want a Cerberus employee to be a Spectre. This should certainly have a political impact (or "implications" as Udina puts it). But there aren't any, or are there?.

Also, until now i always felt like Cerberus was just a villain in ME1 and suddenly became useful for the writers in ME2 because BioWare needed a "what-needs-to-be-done"-employer for Shepards new gritty "Dirty Dozens"-theme. And instead of pulling one out of the hat they just remembered Cerberus and repurposed it instead.

So, my question is: how carefully layout is this ME-universe after all? And IF Cerberus is "tolerated" or even supported by the alliance via unofficial channels, wouldn't it be much much better to let the player know that? Or at least drop more hints? I'm thinking of all the Paragons that are a) loyal to the alliance (because thats where Shepard became what (s)he is now) and remember all the stuff they had to kill in ME1 related to Cerberus crimes (waves of loose rachni and whatnot) and c) are not pro-human at the cost of good relations to the other species (especially with a common thread on the horizon (muahah double meaning). When stuff happens like the email from Toombs and some other Spectre giving me the "how dare you judge me"-speech i cringe and feel like sh!t. What game in it's right mind would want the player too feel like sh!t in its role?! They could easily avoid that if they would let the player know that the alliance knows about his new position with Cerberus and condones it, maybe an email from Hackett where he says that Shepard is still working for the alliance but corsair-style due to political reasons.

I mean, i understand why the alliance can't help the colonists, really, as the Terminus is beyond their territory and going there with a fleet would cause some sh!t-storm of other problems. That's why they need to help the colonies by sending in a covert ops team. Us. But why not tell the player? It would be so much better.

So, as long as BioWare doesn't give me reason to think otherwise, i rather believe that they just retconned the really rogue/villain Cerberus from ME1 into something half-decent for the stories (or rather setting) sake and didn't really care of Paragon players will feel like sh!t about it or not.

P.S.: this is a very very interesting thread! full of intelligent thinking and good lore knowledge. Thanks Zulu and participants!

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:23 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think Mass Effect 2 gave you a chance to see what working with Cerberus is like... and consequently just how much they could really be blamed for when Cerberus is mentioned elsewhere. It changed my perspective on them some. They're still not "good" but they're not as bad as they're made to seem (like Miranda says).

[anmiro]

I dont think Cerberus is a part of the Alliance anymore, but I do think they have enough Alliance officers and officials in their pocket that they might as well be. I suspect Udina is among them.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The update is a major win

[aDuck]

Sorry, didnt explain "Request denied". Hackett was incredibally thankful for the job that Shepard did, that when the request came in to take him into custody, he says no. I wouldve thought that Hackett wouldve been so greatful for Shepard's contribution to saving the Citidel, that Shepard gets pardoned (or clemency) for his current behavior.

[Geowil]

aDuck wrote...

Sorry, didnt explain "Request denied". Hackett was incredibally thankful for the job that Shepard did, that when the request came in to take him into custody, he says no. I wouldve thought that Hackett wouldve been so greatful for Shepard's contribution to saving the Citidel, that Shepard gets pardoned (or clemency) for his current behavior.

Yep, this is the most likely scenario in realtion to that mail either that or he beleives, as Anderson and the Council do, that sheapard is only temporarily working with Cerberus.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Geowil wrote...


1. No
one else knows exactly where the Normandy crashes except for the
Alliance ( and except the Shadow Broker at first, he sells the
information to Cerberus).

2. They
obviously did not want to destroy the site as they send Shepard down
there to plant a memorial statue and collect the dog tags.

3. The normandy's design is likely already stolen, likely by the Shadow Broker. It
would do little good to destroy the wreckage. While the Alliance might
not know that they may also have been preasured by the survivors and
families of those that died to not destroy the wrekage. 


4. Go read through the Dossiers at the Shadow Broker's
lair, he had a lot of information on Cerberus.  I can't remember it all
off the top of my head, but it listed everything that Cerberus had its hands in, and the reason for why the Alliance kicked themout or they went rouge is likely in there.

5. Also,
during ME1 Hackett gives you several missions where he tells you to go
and destroy Cerberus outposts and calls them a Rouge branch of the
Military, then you also have Kohaku.  His entire team was killed
by Cerberus and later he was as well.  If Cerberus was indeed part of
the Alliance what justification is there for those killings?

Red = wrong
Orange = baseless supposition
Yellow = supposition

Ok, I will add a bit more sustinance to my comments.

1. The Normandy had been sitting thre on that planet for two years before the Shadow Broker recovered Shepard's body at the request of the collectors.

So, now if someone else knew where it was then why was the wreckage never stolen?

Only the collectors knew exactly where it was and they gave the location to TSB.  Liara intercepted this data and stole Shepards body from TSB and gave it to Cerberus.


2.  How is this one a supposition?  You think that the memorial statue was a bomb?  Or that they destroyed it afterwords?  Where is your proof then?


3.  I do not think this is very baseless.  TSB has follwed Cerberus pretty closely.  While it is true that I don't have any facts to back it up I think it is at least plausible that he somehow gained access to the shematics.  The rest was speculation, but it seems plausible.


4. TSB was way too meticulous not to have every granual of information on Cerberus' movements.  Can't comment on the red section there, haven't yet checked the Cerberus entry again.


5. I will conede on that one a little.  Be does say something tot he effect that they are under the control of a renegade group, but I can not remember to well as I ony last played it a few months ago.

Modifié par Geowil, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

The way all the bits and pieces fit together i strongly believe that Alliance and Cerberus coexist with strong mutual links. I wouldn't put too much thought about whether that means "rogue" or "black ops" or what because it kinda doesn't matter. Fact seems that the higher ups on alliance side rely on Cerberus doing its job and backing them up with funds and even science teams and Cerberus granting the alliance the fruits of it labor.

Can't agree more. This is all that this thread is about in just four lines.

I'd only reiterate once more that the Alliance is not a typical "national" government we are used to.

And, as a note, in the ME2 Codex under the "Systems Alliance" entry - at least if the Old Council is killed - it is said that many in the galactic community see the Humans as a "rogue race".

SimonTheFrog wrote...
 the aliens should mind, because Cerberus is clearly anti-alien in its goals as in human dominance in the galaxy. So, for example i, as an alien, wouldn't want a Cerberus employee to be a Spectre.

Mordin says TIM's reputation is "problematic", but has no scruples about working with Cerberus. And he is one of the more familiar with Cerberus, than many others. So, it depends.

SimonTheFrog wrote...
This should certainly have a political impact (or "implications" as Udina puts it). But there aren't any, or are there?.

Probably, there are. Regardless "rogue" or not. For Shepard personally, it might not end well...

SimonTheFrog wrote...
Also, until now i always felt like Cerberus was just a villain in ME1 and suddenly became useful for the writers in ME2 because BioWare needed a "what-needs-to-be-done"-employer for Shepards new gritty "Dirty Dozens"-theme. And instead of pulling one out of the hat they just remembered Cerberus and repurposed it instead.

That's possible.

But let's not forget about Banes. And about the free-lancer on Feros and food shipments from there to the same cluster where the Normandy to got assembled.

ME trilogy is said to have been planned as such from the very beginning. So, although it's not like the writers have nothing to do anymore, I think that the major twists have been planned all along, including those of ME3.

SimonTheFrog wrote...
They could easily avoid that if they would let the player know that the alliance knows about his new position with Cerberus and condones it, maybe an email from Hackett where he says that Shepard is still working for the alliance but corsair-style due to political reasons.

It works like Tali's mask, actually. Remove it, and there will be a crowd of the disappointed and a crowd of those who have just lost interest.

In-game, it's too classified to be divulged to Shepard. He is ready to save the Galaxy anyway, so, he doesn't need to know. Also, who knows what the Paragon Shepard's reaction would be upon such news?

SimonTheFrog wrote...
P.S.: this is a very very interesting thread! full of intelligent thinking and good lore knowledge. Thanks Zulu and participants!

You are welcome.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
The update is a major win

You're welcome too!

Geowil wrote...
1. The Normandy had been sitting thre on that planet for two years before the Shadow Broker recovered Shepard's body at the request of the collectors.

So, now if someone else knew where it was then why was the wreckage never stolen?

Only the collectors knew exactly where it was and they gave the location to TSB.  Liara intercepted this data and stole Shepards body from TSB and gave it to Cerberus.

2.  How is this one a supposition?  You think that the memorial statue was a bomb?  Or that they destroyed it afterwords?  Where is your proof then?

3.  I do not think this is very baseless.  TSB has follwed Cerberus pretty closely.  While it is true that I don't have any facts to back it up I think it is at least plausible that he somehow gained access to the shematics.  The rest was speculation, but it seems plausible.

4. TSB was way too meticulous not to have every granual of information on Cerberus' movements.  Can't comment on the red section there, haven't yet checked the Cerberus entry again.

5. I will conede on that one a little.  Be does say something tot he effect that they are under the control of a renegade group, but I can not remember to well as I ony last played it a few months ago.

Let's see.

1. In fact, the Shadow Broker knew the crash site coordinates almost immeditely, and contracted the Blue Suns to get Shepard's body. Probably (supposition here) he knew it from the Blue Suns themselves who had likely been the ones to rescue the Normandy survivors from the life pods. And if TSB knows something, anyone in the Galaxy may learn it too, for a fee.

2. How a monument prevents bombing? Currently they want the monument. In an hour, they may want a crater.

3. TSB followed Cerberus so closely, that it got him killed in the end. Cerberus may be "inept", but TSB was "inepter".

4. In fact, TSB seems to have never learnt that Cerberus had ever been with the Alliance. I bet your Shepard forgot to mention that to TSB's agent in ME1.

5. Really, words "Hackett" and "Cerberus" occur together on only a single mission, where Hackett requests that you protect "Alliance scientists" who later turn out to be Cerberus scientists.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 octobre 2010 - 09:40 .