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[superimposed]

Except that the US Government aknowledges that the CIA is part of it's body?

[Mallissin]

Evidence? Nearly every member of Cerberus worked for the Alliance at some point (perhaps even TIM, who many believe is Banes). Even EDI was originally Alliance designed at Sidon!

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Sidon

Many of the major Alliance projects began as Cerberus projects, and maybe were integrated later, like Ascension and Teltin, the Normandy and Exogeni's Thorian research.

Modifié par Mallissin, 07 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[Terraneaux]

Mallissin wrote...

Evidence? Nearly every member of Cerberus worked for the Alliance at some point (perhaps even TIM, who many believe is Banes). Even EDI was originally Alliance designed at Sidon!

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Sidon

Many of the major Alliance projects began as Cerberus projects, and maybe were integrated later, like Ascension and Teltin, the Normandy and Exogeni's Thorian research.

Well, remember, Cerberus only officially went rogue during ME1.

[Zulu_DFA]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

Udina is TIM's best friend. And Shepard's.

What makes you say this?

Call it a hunch.

[Mallissin]

Terraneaux wrote...
Well, remember, Cerberus only officially went rogue during ME1.

Eh, maybe not during ME1 but not long before ME1, yes. Banes worked for the Alliance for a long time before disappearing only a awhile before ME1.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Banes

Saren discovers the Reaper in 2165, Anderson loses his chance at being the Human Spectre, probably causing the Alliance Military to invest more into Cerberus since attempts to join the Council has failed. ME1 takes place in 2183, 18 years later and plenty of time to build it out into the organization we see in ME1 and later ME2.

Modifié par Mallissin, 07 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[AntiChri5]

Mallissin wrote...

Evidence? Nearly every member of Cerberus worked for the Alliance at some point (perhaps even TIM, who many believe is Banes). Even EDI was originally Alliance designed at Sidon!

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Sidon

Many of the major Alliance projects began as Cerberus projects, and maybe were integrated later, like Ascension and Teltin, the Normandy and Exogeni's Thorian research.

EDI was built from reper tech, The ascension project is only related to Teltin because Cerberus infiltrated it to experiment on ONE subject.

I doubt the illusive man is Banes, because TIM has been TIM for quite a while.

[Koross]

It is crazy that this is quite plausible. Even more so when the OP is using Tim as his forum avatar.

[Mallissin]

AntiChri5 wrote...
EDI was built from reper tech, The ascension project is only related to Teltin because Cerberus infiltrated it to experiment on ONE subject.

I doubt the illusive man is Banes, because TIM has been TIM for quite a while.

EDI says she was built in part from research on the remains of Sovereign, yet Anderson never mentions they found anything worthwhile in the wreckage. You really think they could make a full blown AI from looking at dead Reaper parts in under two years? They used the previous Alliance research and expanded on it.

As far as Ascension and Teltin, it seems like any risky project the Alliance attempts is preceded by a Cerberus attempt. That was the point I was trying to make. Plausible deniability. Do the really risky stuff as a "terrorist organization" and then slip what's learned into the main project.

Banes could have been acting as TIM whiled working for the Alliance or TIM could be a position carried down since Cerberus' creation, kind of like Dread Pirate Roberts and Banes' death was his induction.

http://en.wikipedia...._Pirate_Roberts

Modifié par Mallissin, 07 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[applehug]

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

[AntiChri5]

Mallissin wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
EDI was built from reper tech, The ascension project is only related to Teltin because Cerberus infiltrated it to experiment on ONE subject.

I doubt the illusive man is Banes, because TIM has been TIM for quite a while.

EDI says she was built in part from research on the remains of Sovereign, yet Anderson never mentions they found anything worthwhile in the wreckage. You really think they could make a full blown AI from looking at dead Reaper parts in under two years? They used the previous Alliance research and expanded on it.

As far as Ascension and Teltin, it seems like any risky project the Alliance attempts is preceeded by a Cerberus attempt. That was the point I was trying to make. Plausible deniability. Do the really risky stuff as a "terrorist organization" and then slip what's learned into the main project.

Banes could have been acting as TIM whiled working for the Alliance or TIM could be a position carried down since Cerberus' creation, kind of like Dread Pirate Roberts and Banes' death was his induction.

http://en.wikipedia...._Pirate_Roberts

The Alliance doesnt have anything good from Sov because Cerberus and the Turians nabbed all the juicy bits. I do agree that Cerb operations do have a tendancy to become Alliance operations but that could still be explained by high ranking Alliance officials working for Cerb.

[AsheraII]

It's possible, but in that case it's still odd how it needs funds. And I still believe TIM is actually an alien, possibly a rogue Reaper.

[Jalem001]

Mallissin wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
EDI was built from reper tech, The ascension project is only related to Teltin because Cerberus infiltrated it to experiment on ONE subject.

I doubt the illusive man is Banes, because TIM has been TIM for quite a while.

EDI says she was built in part from research on the remains of Sovereign, yet Anderson never mentions they found anything worthwhile in the wreckage. You really think they could make a full blown AI from looking at dead Reaper parts in under two years? They used the previous Alliance research and expanded on it.

As far as Ascension and Teltin, it seems like any risky project the Alliance attempts is preceded by a Cerberus attempt. That was the point I was trying to make. Plausible deniability. Do the really risky stuff as a "terrorist organization" and then slip what's learned into the main project.

Banes could have been acting as TIM whiled working for the Alliance or TIM could be a position carried down since Cerberus' creation, kind of like Dread Pirate Roberts and Banes' death was his induction.

http://en.wikipedia...._Pirate_Roberts

Anderson was directly refering to evidence of the Reapers being...well Reapers.  There was valuable technology discovered from Sovreigns wreckage.  Garrus's weapon upgarde, for example, is the result of Sovreign's technology being reverse engineered.

[Mallissin]

AntiChri5 wrote...
The Alliance doesnt have anything good from Sov because Cerberus and the Turians nabbed all the juicy bits. I do agree that Cerb operations do have a tendancy to become Alliance operations but that could still be explained by high ranking Alliance officials working for Cerb.

But that's the point, if the Alliance doesn't find any Reaper technology, the other races have nothing to fear from the Alliance Military. While if Cerberus has it, they don't need to admit it to anyone, can research it in secret and the Alliance as plausible deniability. Meanwhile, if another race finds out Cerberus has it then the Alliance just raids Cerberus to take the technology and keeps researching the project either in an open way the other races trust or with them in parallel. In any case, it's a win-win scenario.

And who knows if Admiral Kohuko is really dead? We found a body (that wasn't even nibbled on or ate by the Rachni in the cage), but they found Banes' body too. Maybe we'll meet Kohuko again in ME3 as a part of Cerberus.

[Mallissin]

Jalem001 wrote...
Anderson was directly refering to evidence of the Reapers being...well Reapers.  There was valuable technology discovered from Sovreigns wreckage.  Garrus's weapon upgarde, for example, is the result of Sovreign's technology being reverse engineered.

That's the Turians. He makes no mention of the Alliance finding anything worthwhile.

[Zulu_DFA]

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because I said, the structure of the Alliance is modular. Divisions may operate autonomously from each other and reciev instructions directly from the real policymakers. The general policy lines are vague. "Information strictly on the need-to-know basis".

Kahoku may have been a prominent marine, but he wasn't even aware of Cerberus before he found himself deep in black ops sh*t. He took a guess that Cerberus had gone rogue and told you so. But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

Oh, and BTW, in the "Elevator News" Kahoku's death was reported as "of natural causes".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

ROFL! I even imagined Martin Sheen's voice reading this.

[Jax Sparrow]

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

Whether BioWare wishes to admit it yet or not is irrelevant to that there is some severe math errors to their planetary population numbers.

So yes, this idea is far fetched and has an extremely low probability, enough to suggest it is impossible.  

[applehug]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because I said, the structure of the Alliance is modular. Divisions may operate autonomously from each other and reciev instructions directly from the real policymakers. The general policy lines are vague. "Information strictly on the need-to-know basis".

Kahoku may have been a prominent marine, but he wasn't even aware of Cerberus before he found himself deep in black ops sh*t. He took a guess that Cerberus had gone rogue and told you so. But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

Oh, and BTW, in the "Elevator News" Kahoku's death was reported as "of natural causes".

I doubt the Alliance would sit idly by as one of it's marines was investigating it's black ops orginizations. If that was true why wouldn't they make any attempt to stop it? They have the power to assign to any place in the galaxy at any time at any moments notice.

And the elevator news story was just a way to make sure the public didn't know that a terroist group was creating super-soilders and had the capabilities to kidnap Alliance Marines.

[Zulu_DFA]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

Maybe a cover up. Or inter-agency rivalry.

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

Alliance isn't a "public" government. It's "corporate" government. TIM's "appointment" is a business decision by anonimous corporate executives.

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

We know nothing about how the Alliance's budget is formed, and how its spending is controlled and accounted. As I suggested, corporate money may be funneled directly to Cerberus. EDI practically states this flat in ME2.

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

Are you a black ops expert? Never mind. And never say "never".

Whether BioWare wishes to admit it yet or not is irrelevant to that there is some severe math errors to their planetary population numbers.

Between ME1 and ME2 - yes. I think all the discrepansies should be solved in favor of the ME1 canon.

So yes, this idea is far fetched and has an extremely low probability, enough to suggest it is impossible.  

You missed all the major points of my initial post. I'll repeat just one: The Systems Alliance is nothing like today's national governments.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 07:10 .

[Commander Shepard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

Udina is TIM's best friend. And Shepard's.

Udina would love Cerberus. Both Udina and Cerberus are all for advancing humanity at any cost

[KSerge]

I think there's some investigative fluff dialog that mentions (or maybe codex info) that when the Charon relay was first found, TIM proposed that there needed to be some kind of defense organization specifically aimed at keeping everything in Sol system protected from everything on the other side of the Charon relay. Thus, the name Cerberus (look up Charon in greek mythology, it'll make sense of it for you).



When alliance politics shot down the idea (in the wake of the first contact war, they weren't looking to alienate themselves from the rest of the sentient galaxy), TIM started up cerberus anyway, without the backing of the alliance. Through his many contacts and associations, he's developed cerberus into a black-ops division rivaling the STG and Spectres, but since it's not government sanctioned it is technically a "rogue" group. Though honestly, it is no more "rogue" than a mercenary company the way I understand it.



In any case, if Cerberus got away from that bad habit of "breaking the rules" to research potential defense solutions, they'd probably have been sanctioned by the government decades ago. I think TIM prefers the current layout, though, given the freedom of not operating with any government red tape. Double-edged sword being that the alliance, and the rest of citadel space, fears and distrusts them.

[Zulu_DFA]

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because I said, the structure of the Alliance is modular. Divisions may operate autonomously from each other and reciev instructions directly from the real policymakers. The general policy lines are vague. "Information strictly on the need-to-know basis".

Kahoku may have been a prominent marine, but he wasn't even aware of Cerberus before he found himself deep in black ops sh*t. He took a guess that Cerberus had gone rogue and told you so. But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

Oh, and BTW, in the "Elevator News" Kahoku's death was reported as "of natural causes".

I doubt the Alliance would sit idly by as one of it's marines was investigating it's black ops orginizations. If that was true why wouldn't they make any attempt to stop it? They have the power to assign to any place in the galaxy at any time at any moments notice.

And the elevator news story was just a way to make sure the public didn't know that a terroist group was creating super-soilders and had the capabilities to kidnap Alliance Marines.

But the fact is: they did sit idly. They did nothing about a missing unit. Kahoku went to the Council, but they dindn't help him. Then Kahoku asked a free-lancing spectre to help him. Why? I'll tell you. Because the "right" people knew all along. And Kahoku pried where he shouldn't.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 07:18 .

[Lord_Metal666]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

Maybe a cover up. Or inter-agency rivalry.

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

Alliance isn't a "public" government. It's "corporate" government. TIM's "appointment" is a business decision by anonimous corporate executives.

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

We know nothing about how the Alliance's budget is formed, and how its spending is controlled and accounted. As I suggested, corporate money may be funneled directly to Cerberus. EDI practically states this flat in ME2.

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

Are you a black ops expert? Never mind. And never say "never".

Whether BioWare wishes to admit it yet or not is irrelevant to that there is some severe math errors to their planetary population numbers.

Between ME1 and ME2 - yes. I think all the discrepansies should be solved in favor of the ME1 canon.

So yes, this idea is far fetched and has an extremely low probability, enough to suggest it is impossible.  

You missed all the major points of my initial post. I'll repeat just one: The Systems Alliance is nothing like today's national governments.

It's obvious that Cerberus being part of the Alliance goes against his pre-concieved  notions of what he wants to happen in the game, so of course he will choose not to believe that Cerberus is part of the Alliance.

[Mallissin]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

Whether BioWare wishes to admit it yet or not is irrelevant to that there is some severe math errors to their planetary population numbers.

So yes, this idea is far fetched and has an extremely low probability, enough to suggest it is impossible.  

1. A cover for sending a former teammate (who is Alliance) to a site they know you'll be visiting (because Cerberus is a part of the Alliance).
2. Everyone knows the CIA is a government agency. There were clandestine organizations assisting the United States in wars before the OSS or CIA existed yet I doubt you could find their names easily. Even the NSA was not acknowledged as existing for nearly twenty years and I doubt many know about Echelon.
3. It isn't necessarily disappearing out of a budget, but defense contractors could be hiding big projects by spreading the costs out amoung many projects. Defense contractors after all were mentioned as being the major source of Cerberus funding.
4. Huh? First of all, this is 180 years in the future. The cost of ressurecting Shepard was only the cost of a few cruisers. What good are a few cruisers against Reapers? Meanwhile only one man has been able to not only convince the Council to allow a human spectre, but also helped Humans get on the Council (one way or another) and defeated the first Reaper attack. Symbols can be very powerful and Shepard has the trust of many races, which if you noticed in ME2 was necessary to win.