798 réponses à ce sujet

[Voutsis1982]

The Alliance has this ruthless deep cover black ops division and it has this most successful special forces operative in history. What's so hard to get about the former being reinforced by the latter?

Oh, I get it. I just get more. The right group for the right job with the right tools. Cerberus ain't it. This mission is about engaging capital ships and large numbers of troops, and the Cerberus logo limits them in specifically those areas [and others]. They wouldn't get the job, they wouldn't get the assets. It's as simple as that.

Zulu, I understand why you'd be timid about going after the Girl Guides post, but if you're going to endlessly deflect, try to use an argument that makes more sense. This is Leprechaun thinking again, that Cerberus is somehow magical, the centre of the universe and the best option for everything. We all can see it's not, and you're yet to reply.

This is highly debatable, especially seeing the results of the operation.

Results? Wouldn't be much of a videogame if the moment you stepped aboard the crippled Collector ship a second vessel dropped out of FTL and blew the Normandy in half. Again. Wouldn't it be nice to have a bunch of corsairs for backup?

And if it's so debatable, maybe you should stop hiding from the enormous list of factual advantages any other front organization has over Cerberus and start debating them. The Girl Guides are spanking the crap out of the Illusive Man, and not in a good way.

The logic seems to have fully abandoned you here.

Dem's fight'n words! No wait, they're not. Fight'n words would be explaining why this:



which prevents the Normandy from meeting up with Alliance vessels for fuel, armaments, troops, nukes, specialized weapons and equipment, or corsair support, actually improves an operation where you're going up against powerful ships and large numbers of ground troops. I can't help but notice your failure to defend your argument.

that Hackett actually asked you to bail out Dr. Wayne's arse out of what appeared to be a serial killing spree,

Hackett sending a Spectre to Dr Wayne does not support Hackett being part of Cerberus.

So... ain't they curious whether Shepard is still loyal or not? Don't they want to check it out?

Silly question, already answered. "If Shepard is no longer loyal to the Alliance, he won’t come in. And if Shepard is still loyal to the Alliance, they’re better off leaving him where he is." And they already know Shepard's intentions. Liara has obviously been in communique with Hackett about how Shepard came into Cerberus hands, Shep talks to Anderson and the Virmire survivor about why Shepard is working with Cerberus. Alliance Intel doesn't seem to know. Maybe they aren't talking to their Black Ops division. Oops.

Best foothold the Alliance ever had in Cerberus was before Cerberus went "rogue". Only Cerberus never went "rogue", so Alliance's foothold in Cerberus is as good as ever. They call him TIM.

Wow. From "This is proof! There is no other explanation!", to "They call him TIM! They call him TIM dammit!" cover-your-eyes denial in one easy move. That was fast. This is one of the downsides of Leprechaun thinking, it leads to these awkward situations.

So where are these Alliance Girl Guides?

Not "Alliance Girl Guides". Just "Girl Guides". A corsair doesn't advertise Alliance affiliation. You wouldn't know one of their ships if you saw it. That's the point. Why did you need my help to figure that out?

Posted by Arijhan:
As to why the Corsair's weren't used instead of Cerberus? Maybe because the Corsair's don't exist anymore? What point is there in having a black ops organisation that has enough 'red tape to sink a cruiser'? Also it was known to have only ever been activated by the Alliance, Cerberus has the advantage of being 'rogue.' They can't be identified with being with the Alliance just like when someone apparently dies in service to the CIA they get a black star recorded as opposed to their names.

This is how you do it. You reply to the argument that makes Cerberus look like a third-rate mission option, because that's where the problem is. To answer you, Arijhan, red tape is red tape regardless of what organization it is applied to. If the Alliance can run a tape-free operation called Cerberus, they can run a tape-free operation called anything else. There's nothing magical about Cerberus.

Only Jacob ever references the Corsair program, and he was in it, so we have no indication it was well-known. We are told that deniability was its specific purpose.

But if push came to shove, this is how it would play: Cerberus would field the Normandy without a Cerberus logo on it, and without telling Shepard they're Cerberus. Suddenly you get all of a corsair's strengths as mentioned in the Cookie post. If Cerberus were an Alliance Black Op, there is every reason to play it this way. They don't.

But for a criminal organization, they have a very good reason to want that logo branded on Shepard's back.

Modifié par Voutsis1982, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:21 .

[Oblarg]

You're reading too deeply into this. Cerberus is too incoherent between the two games as is (going from an unambiguously evil group to a not-so-evil one you have to work for in the second). If BioWare had planned it out this well the transition wouldn't have been so damn jarring and unforeseeable.

[Zulu_DFA]

Voutsis1982 wrote...

why this:



which prevents the Normandy from meeting up with Alliance vessels for fuel, armaments, troops, nukes, specialized weapons and equipment, or corsair support, actually improves an operation where you're going up against powerful ships and large numbers of ground troops.

*This* does not prevent the Normandy from anything of that. It also does not prevent the Normandy from docking at the Citadel. For all we know it may be one of the front companies' logo, Cord-Hislop most probably.

And Cerberus does not only improve the operation. Cerberus runs the operation ("rogue" or not).

Voutsis1982 wrote...
This is Leprechaun thinking again, that Cerberus is somehow magical, the centre of the universe and the best option for everything.

 
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "Leprechaun thinking", but thinking that Shepard is somehow magical, center of the universe, and the best option for anything, so that the Alliance in order to have a hope of surviving the Reaper invasion must let him run loose and with terrorists and do whatever he wants, is silly.

Oddly enough, TIM says this silly thing to Shepard ("I brought you back, the rest of show is yours..."), but the story doesn't actually support that he means it. Instead, TIM treats Shepard like a chess master treats his queen piece.

Voutsis1982 wrote...

So... ain't they curious whether Shepard is still loyal or not? Don't they want to check it out?

Silly question, already answered. "If Shepard is no longer loyal to the Alliance, he won’t come in. And if Shepard is still loyal to the Alliance, they’re better off leaving him where he is."

So the Alliance want to keep themselves in the dark, and go "Oh, on the oft chance Shepard is still loyal to us, he may come up with some fruitful ideas of his own as to how to solve the Cerberus problem, which we actually don't want to solve at all [see Retribution]. We should just relax. We're all in a computer game and not real, afterall." In this case, unlike TIM, they actually assume Shepard is a god.

But for most of the time Shepard is just an engine of destruction and nothing more. He can mill around and think that it's "his" show all he wants, but it's not. If Shepard dies in ME2, it's his own personal sexual problem. TIM will find another champion to save himself, Humanity and the Galaxy from the Reapers, as is made clear in the TIM-Joker conversation. There just won't be a BioWare game about this scenario.
 
Also, the trash about Cerberus ineptness you may want to take to another thread. This thread assumes that Cerberus is no more inept than any other organization in ME universe.

Also, multiplying essenses without necessity does not help a discussion. Therefore, if you want to stick to the "Girl Guides" and "Leprechaun thinking" kinds of argument (the latter also being a case of ad hominem, I guess), do so without further expectation to be responded.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:20 .

[SmokeyPSD]

The problem I have with this theory is that it doesn't quite jive with philosophically who Cerberus are, human supremacists to the core, at any cost. They aren't just a no red tape black op organization. They are more than that. They have a deep seated ideology. The Alliance may benefit indirectly or sometimes even directly in the case of the Normandy but Cerberus in my opinion is most surely not tethered to it.

Modifié par SmokeyPSD, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus assassinated a Pope in order to make a possibility of a strategic alliance with the Salarians against the Turians more viable.

TIM instructs Shepard to recruit Mordin Solus, a Salarian known as "Human sympathizer", at least to the Omega slums' residents.

Now, how is that "Human-supremacist to the core"? It's just power politics, nothing more.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Googlesaurus]

Voutsis1982 wrote...

First, this is nonsense. The Alliance is not a charity. Blacks ops exist to provide a better way to achieve an objective, not to be a third-rate mission platform that needs a handout. This is the Leprechaun thinking I talked about, where the word “Cerberus!” is used as a substitute for actually making sense. Secondly, passing over what is obviously the more effective and better option for humanity and instead doing the better option for Cerberus is not an argument that they’re an Alliance group. It’s the other kind of argument.

Thirdly, this is an obvious deflection from the main point – Cerberus is a poor if not terrible choice for this operation, with the Alliance having access to ops with more freedom, more firepower, and getting them a more loyal soldier in Shepard. If Cerberus were an Alliance black ops group they would have never have been involved.

What do you mean by "the more effective and better option for humanity"?

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I dissagree with you on many things Zulu, but on this I agree.

[Voutsis1982]

*This* does not prevent the Normandy from anything of that. It also does not prevent the Normandy from docking at the Citadel. For all we know it may be one of the front companies' logo, Cord-Hislop most probably.

In order of appearance, they aren't doing these things, Shepard's war hero status and connection with Anderson allows them passage [in Citadel space working for Cerberus is treason and a capital offence], and do you believe they would expose a front company in this way? I'm working for Cerberus, but don't pay attention to the Cord-Hislop logo on my ship or my uniform?

I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "Leprechaun thinking",

It means a tendency to use Cerberus as a patch to cover gaping holes in logic, built from an assumption that Cerberus is special - that being criminal, ruthless, conspiracy fodder, etc, is a substitute for things making sense. Usually this means simple and common-sense explanations that work far better are overlooked.

Example: Hackett works for Cerberus because he sent Shepard to protect a Cerberus scientist. It's a conspiracy.
Minus Leprechaun thinking: It is better for Cerberus to scoop Dr Wayne up with their own people rather than involve Shepard. Shepard is a Spectre, and makes reports directly to the Citadel Council. Involving Shepard could expose this Cerberus operation to scrutiny from the Council, the Spectres and the STG. Shepard is the only human being alive at that point who was this kind of liability. Additionally, Hackett informs Shepard that Dr Wayne could be responsible for the deaths of marines on Akuze. In default run throughs, those marines are Shepard's buddies and they are fellow soldiers in all run-throughs. Hackett's actions are exactly the opposite of what a Cerberus mole would do.

I don't say "stupid thinking", because I don't believe it's stupid. It's human nature to seek a simpler explanation. But in these cases they are not better explanations. "Leprechaun thinking" is a warning against the lazy tendencies of one's own mind.

So the Alliance want to keep themselves in the dark

Hackett and Anderson know. Last time I checked they were sort of connected to the Alliance in ME2. Already answered in an above post.

Also, the trash about Cerberus ineptness you may want to take to another thread. This thread assumes that Cerberus is no more inept than any other organization in ME universe.

I believe that a black ops branch of the Alliance would use the best tool for the job. That is the entire basis of my argument. I also believe that one frigate with non-existent military support is Cerberus doing what they can with what they've got, since they are "A small organization with limited people and finite resources." Neither of these positions involve ineptness.

You, on the other hand, are arguing that both Cerberus and the Alliance are inept enough to deliberately limit their own operational range, access to troops, firepower, equipment, ship support, everything, in order to get... nothing, really. In fact, you just suggested that Cerberus would expose one of their front companies as connected to them. You may want to take your trash about Cerberus ineptness to another thread. This thread assumes that shooting yourself in the foot is not an effective rhetorical tactic.

Also, multiplying essenses without necessity does not help a discussion. Therefore, if you want to stick to the "Girl Guides" and "Leprechaun thinking" kinds of argument (the latter also being a case of ad hominem, I guess), do so without further expectation to be responded.

I would talk about how sore you are in defeat but to be fair, I am completely insufferable in victory. I suppose I'll have to make do with with the Girl Guides argument remaining unrebutted.

Modifié par Voutsis1982, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:48 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Voutsis1982 wrote...

Shepard's war hero status and connection with Anderson allows them passage

 
Oh, yeah, Shepard's "awesome". I forgot.

Voutsis1982 wrote...
[in Citadel space working for Cerberus is treason and a capital offence]

Is it?

Voutsis1982 wrote...
and do you believe they would expose a front company in this way?

If Bin Laden is seen riding a Mersedes, does it mean Mersedes is an Al Qaida's front?

Voutsis1982 wrote...
I'm working for Cerberus, but don't pay attention to the Cord-Hislop logo on my ship or my uniform?

Executor Pallin: You are Cerberus!

Cord-Hislop CEO: What? I'm sorry, come again?

P: Shepard wears your uniform and flies your ship, and he is Cerberus!!!

C-H: Excuse me, but last I heard, Shepard used to be one of your spectre thugs, so when he came to us to buy a ship we were happy to provide him with a discount on condition that he and his crew would be wearing our logo, for marketing purposes, you know how it goes. Wanna see the contract?.. And before you ask the next stupid question, Executor, we don't know and don't care where Shepard got the money, we are just working here! And we don't have time to listen to your conspiracy theories when we must be preparing a lawsuit against you for this preposterous trade libel!!!

Voutsis1982 wrote...
Example: Hackett works for Cerberus because he sent Shepard to protect a Cerberus scientist. It's a conspiracy.
Minus Leprechaun thinking: It is better for Cerberus to scoop Dr Wayne up with their own people rather than involve Shepard. Shepard is a Spectre, and makes reports directly to the Citadel Council. Involving Shepard could expose this Cerberus operation to scrutiny from the Council, the Spectres and the STG. Shepard is the only human being alive at that point who was this kind of liability. Additionally, Hackett informs Shepard that Dr Wayne could be responsible for the deaths of marines on Akuze. In default run throughs, those marines are Shepard's buddies and they are fellow soldiers in all run-throughs. Hackett's actions are exactly the opposite of what a Cerberus mole would do.

Nice analysis. Only it's not very thorough.

1. Hackett doesn't send you there. He calls you when you are already in that star system.

2. What "sends" you there, is an intercepted message (presumably from Cerberus), that is meant to warn Dr. Wayne about the possible danger he is in.

3. At the moment Dr. Wayne is part of an Exo-Geni science team in a multilateral effort to study and codify fauna on the planet Ontarom, because it is going to collide with its moon in a few thousand years or something. Exo-Geni is definitely "infiltrated" by Cerberus to a degree, but it doesn't look like Dr. Wayne is on "active Cerberus duty" any more. For all we know, he could have been contracted for just one project (Akuze), then assisted with getting the Exo-Geni contract. Perhaps he remains an "informant", a "contact" in Exo-Geni, but Cerberus must have thousands of such people all over the Galaxy. So Cerberus has no reason to be over-protective of him.

4. By my theory, Hackett is not a "mole". He is just high enough in the world to know what Cerberus really is. And he is perfectly OK with it. Because face it, if you aren't OK with such things, you can't get that high in the world.

5. Shepard, as the First Human Spectre has to draw Cerberus' attention and a possibility for his recruitment has to be assessed. After he gets "killed" in ME2 intro he gets recruited regardless, but back during ME1 the whole Dr. Wayne / Toombs story could be just a test for Shepard and his attitude.

6. It's definitely not a "conclusive proof" that Hackett is TIM's buddy or a Cerberus mole. It's just a "possible indication" of it. But it's not the only one.

Voutsis1982 wrote...
Hackett and Anderson know. Last time I checked they were sort of connected to the Alliance in ME2. Already answered in an above post.

How do they know? Anderson even admits to withhold information from Shepard based on his Cerberus affiliation.

Voutsis1982 wrote...
You, on the other hand, are arguing that both Cerberus and the Alliance are inept enough to deliberately limit their own operational range, access to troops, firepower, equipment, ship support, everything, in order to get... nothing, really.

Can you read? I'm arguing exactly the opposite. A am arguing that Cerberus is an Alliance's tool to widen its operational range beyond the legal restrictions of the Citadel Council (and the Alliance's own law for that matter).

As to Shepard's mission im ME2, it's recon and intelligence, not a full scale campaign. TIM says himself after Horizon (or maybe before), that once the situation requires it he will call in the the cavalry. Only the plot of ME2 never required calling in the cavalry, as the Collectors turned out to be not very numerous, strong or tactically cunning.

Voutsis1982 wrote...
I would talk about how sore you are in defeat but to be fair, I am completely insufferable in victory.

You are completely conceited in your ignorance.

My theory cannot be defeated at this point. You have to wait till the Evolution graphic novel comes out. If it turns out that TIM has created Cerberus of his own pocket money, without even informal involvement by any Alliance military or civil officials, then yes. It will mean that Kahoku has been mistaken about Cerberus' origins and my theory is crap.

But if it turns out that TIM has been blessed and assisted in his undertakings by the Alliance in some way, then my theory will become indefeatable. You know, because any new "evidence" of Cerberus being "rogue" will be just another "cover-up". That's not a thing to be proud of, just a feature of any conspiracy theory.

Voutsis1982 wrote...
I suppose I'll have to make do with with the Girl Guides argument remaining unrebutted.

Suppose what? You're right for the first time here! Congratulations!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 octobre 2010 - 10:41 .

[SmokeyPSD]

I hadn't heard that from the Illusive man on the Salarian and Turian interaction. I would need more information to comment on that directly but I can't see why Cerberus would get involved in politics completely removed from humanity. Something else is at work there perhaps for humanity.

[Voutsis1982]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Voutsis1982 wrote...
[in Citadel space working for Cerberus is treason and a capital offence]

Is it?

I wish I had to work harder to rebut you.

If Bin Laden is seen riding a Mersedes, does it mean Mersedes is an Al Qaida's front?

God, I wish I had to work harder. I point at Praza or Jack, but I can just point at spelling.

5. Shepard, as the First Human Spectre has to draw Cerberus' attention and a possibility for his recruitment has to be assessed [snip] the whole Dr. Wayne / Toombs story could be just a test for Shepard and his attitude.

Ignoring the point, that Hackett actually asked you to bail out Dr. Wayne's arse out of what appeared to be a serial killing spree,

I suppose showing how you're clumsily jumping from rock to rock, your explanations changing from post to post as they get pulled apart, might help. Still, testing Shepard's reaction to the murder of Alliance Marines without providing justification really serves many valuable, interesting purposes.

How do they know?

If only there someone who knew about Shepard being in Cerberus hands, someone who felt terriby guilty about it, someone who was gathering information on the Cerberus crew prior to Lair of the Shadow Broker to the point that they will know who Shepard is banging, someone who has an incentive to tell Shepard's superiors where the commander is in order to alleviate the damage she has done. Someone who talks to Hackett. Someone who I already named in a previous post.

Can you read? I'm arguing exactly the opposite. A am arguing that Cerberus is an Alliance's tool to widen its operational range beyond the legal restrictions of the Citadel Council (and the Alliance's own law for that matter).

Can you comprehend? That doesn't widen the Alliance's capabilities when they already have the Corsairs. Naming their mission platform Cerberus and hampering their ability to get direct material support from the Alliance while limiting the territories in which they can freely operate narrows their capabilities. That is what I have grasped, and everyone apart from you understands already. Again you rely on the ridiculous notion that only Cerberus can do these things when there are clearly far better options.

You have only one counter to this argument - that Cerberus is inept to the point that they would a dramatically less effective option. You can't do that, so you pretend that the Normandy isn't recognized as Cerberus because the symbol might be a company logo.

My theory cannot be defeated at this point.

It's already gone. I've demonstrated quite thoroughly that in a Cerberus-is-Alliance world, Cerberus would be unnecessary addition to the Alliance's bag of tricks, that they have far superior mission platforms based on operational range, access to firepower, ship support, the bloody lot, and still enjoy deniability and law breaking power. Your Cerberus-Alliance theory is a bad joke, and the only way to support it is to claim that Cerberus is an inept organization. You've had days to counter and you've failed.

All you've done is clumsily attempt to reframe the argument, expose how much of your self-esteem is buried in this terrible idea, and reveal how little you have thought out how such an operation would actually work.

And then you did this.

Also, multiplying essenses without necessity does not help a discussion. Therefore, if you want to stick to the "Girl Guides" and "Leprechaun thinking" kinds of argument (the latter also being a case of ad hominem, I guess), do so without further expectation to be responded.

If you had screamed from the rooftops "I can't argue against this, I'm going to take my ball and go home" you couldn't have made yourself clearer. That is why I am conceited. You've justified me.

You have to wait till the Evolution graphic novel comes out.

I can't wait.

"So we wanted to go back and show a little snippet of time and show what the Illusive Man was doing, say, 30 years in the past. During this time Cerberus was still very “pro-human,” and so was the Illusive Man."

I really can't wait.

Modifié par Voutsis1982, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:18 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...
[in Citadel space working for Cerberus is treason and a capital offence][/quote]
Is it?[/quote]

I wish I had to work harder to rebut you.
[/quote]
What's stopping you? Expressing a wish to work harder to rebut my point does not rebut my point at all, so you have plenty of opportunity to carry out your wish instead of just expressing it.


[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...
[quote]If Bin Laden is seen riding a Mersedes, does it mean Mersedes is an Al Qaida's front?
[/quote]

God, I wish I had to work harder. I could talk about Praza or Jack, but I can just point at spelling.
[/quote]
What's stopping you? Expressing a wish to work harder to rebut my point does not rebut my point at all, so you have plenty of opportunity to carry out your wish instead of just expressing it.

Praza and Jack what? They didn't say anything about the logo, so it can be something else. Maybe Cerberus doesn't smell too good, literally. Why haven't that been slapped yet on them too?



[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...

[quote]5. Shepard, as the First Human Spectre has to draw Cerberus' attention and a possibility for his recruitment has to be assessed [snip] the whole Dr. Wayne / Toombs story could be just a test for Shepard and his attitude.[/quote]
[quote]Ignoring the point, that Hackett actually asked you to bail out Dr. Wayne's arse out of what appeared to be a serial killing spree,[/quote]I suppose showing how you're clumsily jumping from rock to rock, your explanations changing from post to post as they get pulled apart, might help.
[/quote]
I suppose, you're telling me you see some contradiction or inconsistency here? Check your visor.


[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...


[quote]How do they know?[/quote]If only there someone who knew about Shepard being in Cerberus hands, someone who felt terriby guilty about it, someone who was gathering information on the Cerberus crew prior to Lair of the Shadow Broker to the point that they will know who Shepard is banging, someone who has an incentive to tell Shepard's superiors where the commander is in order to alleviate the damage she has done. Someone who talks to Hackett. Someone who I already named in a previous post.
[/quote]
No. TIM let them know. He admitted as much during the Horizon debriefing. He also used the "one you already mentioned" to do the "damage".


[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...


[quote]Can you read? I'm arguing exactly the opposite. A am arguing that Cerberus is an Alliance's tool to widen its operational range beyond the legal restrictions of the Citadel Council (and the Alliance's own law for that matter).[/quote]Can you comprehend? That doesn't widen the Alliance's capabilities when they already have the Corsairs. Naming their mission platform Cerberus and hampering their ability to get direct material support from the Alliance while limiting the territories in which they can freely operate narrows their capabilities. That is what I have grasped, and everyone apart from you understands already. Again you rely on the ridiculous notion that only Cerberus can do these things when there are clearly far better options. That leprechaun is at your ear, stopping you from thinking things through.
[/quote]
Corsairs are less efficient than Cerberus. Jacob Taylor tells you that's the reason he of his own will quit the Corsairs and joined Cerberus. Corsairs also don't sound like they can perform "evil experiments" or political assassinations.

It's both funny and telling that the organization that is invented by the writers and mentioned only once in the game with the sole purpose to underscore Cerberus' efficiency is considered by you a "better option".

And the outcome of the Shepard's mission (success) proves that Cerberus has been efficient enough to run it.


[quote]Voutsis1982 wrote...


[quote]My theory cannot be defeated at this point.[/quote]It's already gone. I've demonstrated quite thoroughly that in a Cerberus-is-Alliance world, Cerberus would be unnecessary addition to the Alliance's bag of tricks, that they have far superior mission platforms based on operational range, access to firepower, ship support, the bloody lot, and still enjoy deniability and law breaking power. Your Cerberus-Alliance theory is a bad joke. You've had days to counter and you've failed.
[/quote]
All right, you aren't sold, move on, why don't you?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[sean_nufc]

This is an interesting idea, and quite plausible. In fact, the plot over the two games actually makes more sense to me according to this theory.

The alliance and cerberus stakeholders must be the same human individuals / corporations with therefore the same pro-human (although not neccasarily anti-alien) aims. Using cerberus means the alliance has plausible deniability in the event of any leaks surrounding potential PR disasters for them such as biotic
experiments on children like subject zero.

Im a paragon player over both games but I don't get why my Shep would want to leave cerberus to go back to the alliance. Remember that many of cerberus so called shady operations were started before they ''went 'rogue'' during ME1 so really The Alliance were responsible for them.  I learned in ME1 that the Alliance is not guided buy morals or ethics, so even if they were now two completely seperate entities, why would rejoining the alliance be a 'paragon' choice?

Great thread, thanks to the OP and other contributors!

Modifié par sean_nufc, 30 octobre 2010 - 04:37 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Your Shep took the oath for the alliance when (s)he enlisted. For a paragon that ought to mean something. I'm not saying that this is the end of any discussion, but it's not something that Shepard takes lightly

But why is it either alliance or cerberus, what about the council? Being spectre and all... I wanna have my Shep fight with and for the other alien races. Galactic community and all...

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:54 .

[SmokeyPSD]

Completely off topic. This is a discussion on the relation between the Alliance and Cerberus. How deep is the link.



Much more interesting than the normal rabble rabble of paragons vs renegade.

[sean_nufc]

My feeling from hints taken from dialogue over the games is that the illusive man is also a high ranking alliance policy maker.

Did anybody else notice in the shadow brokers lair that one of the survailence vids is of Anderson talking to a man in a Cerberus uniform on the citadel? Maybe this is another significant hint?

Modifié par sean_nufc, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Zulu_DFA]

sean_nufc wrote...

Did anybody else notice in the shadow brokers lair that one of the survailence vids is of Anderson talking to a man in a Cerberus uniform on the citadel? Maybe this is another significant hint?

http://social.biowar...5134461#5134849

It's also speculated, that many of the Cerberus-related information in the SB's database has been intentionally leaked by Cerberus' counter-intellingence section via double agents etc.

I also personally suspect that Liara T'soni may have maintained closer ties to Cerberus (since she passed over Shepard's body to them in Redemption) than she lets on to Shepard.

Finally, thanks for joining me in my "leprechaun thinking", mac. Welcome aboard, so to speak. Tin foil hats are not required inside the club.

[Autoclave]

very often i see this counter argument about Hades Dogs mission. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because there are always factions within factions. If you were Cerberus and some of your divisions messed up, you could send your own troops to clean up, or even authorize Aliance to do the clean-up.

Same situations within Alliance. You think somebody within Alliance would not authorize killing somebody else from the Alliance? No big deal. Battle for power will always exist.

Alliance and Cerberus at least unofficially have all the reason to be allies. Besides, no authority would admit that their own black-ops division is doing all mess in the galaxy. Nobody in his right mind would recognize it. That's why it's very fit for the Alliance to come up with the "cerberus gone rogue" story.

Modifié par Autoclave, 31 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[tywinsregards]

Why isnt this thread still going?? Evry one should be reading this stuff and keeping this in mind, great thread!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Waiting for TIM's comic to give new material, I guess.

[Fixers0]

I actually have a similar theory and in my opinon is better then the current one,

It could indeed be that at high level there is still contact with Cerberus and the Alliance, jet even Admiral Kahoku, A high ranking officer seem to knew nothing about Cerberus being part of the Alliance , now it could be that, that some of the Higest ranking politicans and Officers (Fleet admiral Hackett) are corrupt and have remainded in contact with cerberus through several deals.

Now a Sub-plot in Mass effect 3 Can have Shepard and company investigate suspicious activite's of another admiral, as shepard cannot just accuse a High ranking Admiral of conspiracy he needs to work with quitly and with contacts to uncover the link between the Alliance and Cerberus then he goes to Anderson with evidence, now he may either be corrupt or not, if he is he will try to stop Shepard's plan but in that scenaro Virmire Survior and Udina will help Shepard to ''Clean the Álliance'' without to much media attention. If Anderson isn't corrupt Udina will be the one who tries to stop shepard's plan.

Either way The Alliance get's cleaned of pro-cerberus personel and a new lead is established under strict supervision of many independant sides.

Modifié par Fixers0, 25 novembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

All right, here is something new. Not really new, of course, and it was mentioned elsewhere, but still. A further proof that Adm. Hackett's famous "Request denied" resolution was not so much about his having faith in Shepard, as it was about his standard procedure of keeping heat off Cerberus' arse.

One case of that is the "UNC: Dead Scientists" quest. Shepard is asked by Hackett to look into the killings of the "Alliance scientists" whom Cpl. Toombs reveals later to be former Cerberus contractors. Note, that Hackett contacts Shepard only when the latter is already in the star system, while initially the quest is triggered by hacking a terminal on Noveria and intercepting a message warning Dr. Wayne that he is in trouble.

But there is a similar quest that is largely overlooked in this regard. Let's start from afar. Take a look at the Cerberus dossier in the Shadow Broker's base. It clearly indicates that starting up operations that look like ordinary criminal enterpises and rackets is not beyond Cerberus. This makes sense, because additional funds and resources never go to waste, no matter how well you are funded by sponsors and legitimate front companies. And also it helps to sometimes disguise really important inteligence operations as mere criminal activity. All kinds of miscreants ready to be hired for whatever pays well are also made available. This should pretty much close the question as to why would Amistan Banes order some Krogan thug to blackmail Dr. Michelle over some such petty stuff as a few medical supplies.

Coming closer now. "UNC: Espionage probe" starts as "Investigate food shipments", when you hack a terminal on Feros. Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and Exo-Geni is known to be heavily infiltrated by Cerberus, and the Feros colony was definitely housing a Cerberus agent. My money is on that What's His Name Freelancer Guy, but this is not important here. What is important is that the food shipments went to the Voyager Cluster, where Shepard could later get a chance to take out Cerberus outposts in 2 different star systems if you followed Kahoku's line of quests. And in ME2 EDI tells you that the second Normandy was assembled in this star cluster!

But the food shipments went to another system. And guess what, when Shepard arrives in that star system, Adm. Hackett contacts him with some weird story about a spy probe coming on-line where it isn't supposed to come on-line. Then a band of mercs (lead by a human-hating pirate, but also a kind of guy who Cerberus could sell surplus weapons to -- see LotSB) ambushes Shepard on the ground, and Shepard has even to take a stroll on the planet's surface without having access to the Mako for a while (and the Mako gets somehow replaced to another side of the mountain ridge in the meantime)...

The questions yet to be answered are these: why would Cerberus arrange food shipments to a pirate gang, that happens to own an Alliance's spy probe (which is actually a nuclear bomb), and what does Hackett have to do with it?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 février 2011 - 08:29 .

[Arijharn]

BUMP to Necro thread part 2!



To make this somewhat relevant though; why would Hackett ask a Spectre to help when he could just co-opt a regular Alliance cruiser to destroy the area? Because pirates/slavers are pirate/slavers. Cause the cave system to collapse on the soldiers or whatever.

[ReiSilver]

One thing I'd advise Zulu is to update the first post with the 'proof' that he may have found elsewhere in this thread as the PROOF of the first post is nothing but guess work.

If this thread is going to be Necro'd it would be convenient to have all the main points gathered in one area.

So far the games have stated that Cerberus used to work for the Alliance but went rogue some time before ME1, the Alliance publicly disavows them and the books indicate that Cerberus is kept up to date on Alliance operations through sympathisers and moles

[Telemachus78]

I don't know if someone already said this (cause I didn't want to read 21 pages of posts) but I always thought this was the info that Kenji stole that got him killed.