798 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

There is actually some corroboration: the ME1 Cerberus codex (written without insider knowledge) notes that six months before the game, Cerberus did a sudden change of policy/priorities, and notes how counter-terrorist experts believe it indicates a change of leadership. It fits correctly with Kohaku's report.

[krimesh]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
(...)

(Because all the case for Cerberus being rogue ultimately boils down to: "Kahoku said so".)

This right here is my favorite line in the entire thread because it's very true and I can't believe I never thought of it that way before.

Uh, how about the fact that the Alliance works with the Council, while Cerberus is a declared enemy of the council? You can't be both at the same time. Of course one could say that the Alliance is simply fooling the council. But that is just speculation. There is certainly no proof that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. There is room for a theory, though. On the other hand the Alliance is heavily infiltrated by Cerberus, like a corrupt government. At what point does a corrupt government turn into the criminal? I know of no clearly defined answer to this question. Without giving this answer, there can be no proof for the theory.

Modifié par krimesh, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
(...)

(Because all the case for Cerberus being rogue ultimately boils down to: "Kahoku said so".)

This right here is my favorite line in the entire thread because it's very true and I can't believe I never thought of it that way before.

The folks that think they own ME Wiki wouldn't agree with you, Phoenix. I tried once (out of curiousity mostly, what their reaction would be, not that I intended to straighten them out) to edit the Cerberus page there and put in the word "apparently", which, to my knowledge of English, still bears quite strong affirmative implication. It got undone in about 10 finutes and I was told that it is restated multiple times over all installments that Cerberus has gone rogue. Whatever.

Those guys also think that the "black ops" status necessarilly made Cerberus a part of the Alliance military. So I guess CIA answers to the US Secretary of Defence...

Still Wiki is a good place to look for quick facts, if you know how to do it. I mean, if I want a planet description or some name, I rather go to Wiki, than reinstall the game on my hard drive.

By the way, in the discussion section of that page someone had questioned the "rogue" status of Cerberus even before ME2 was released, in pretty much similar words to my initial OP here. I swear, it wasn't me!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:45 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is actually some corroboration: the ME1 Cerberus codex (written without insider knowledge) notes that six months before the game, Cerberus did a sudden change of policy/priorities, and notes how counter-terrorist experts believe it indicates a change of leadership. It fits correctly with Kohaku's report.

Dean, there was no "Cerberus" entry in the ME1 Codex.

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
(...)

(Because all the case for Cerberus being rogue ultimately boils down to: "Kahoku said so".)

This right here is my favorite line in the entire thread because it's very true and I can't believe I never thought of it that way before.

Uh, how about the fact that the Alliance works with the Council, while Cerberus is a declared enemy of the council? You can't be both at the same time. Of course one could say that the Alliance is simply fooling the council. But that is just speculation. There is certainly no proof that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. There is room for a theory, though. On the other hand the Alliance is heavily infiltrated by Cerberus, like a corrupt government. At what point does a corrupt government turn into the criminal? I know of no clearly defined answer to this question. Without giving this answer, there can be no proof for the theory.

Sure you can. It's a dangerous game, but it's played all the time. Even allies spy and steal from their friends, and that's good allies mind you, like Western European countries. The Council and Alliance hardly count as close allies prior to the Paragon end of ME1.

Cerberus didn't declare itself an enemy of the Council. It's the Council that declared itself an enemy of Cerberus. Cerberus was made to do things the Alliance couldn't publicly do or be seen to do. Things that benefit the Alliance at the expense of the Council or alien races (like developing and using anti-biotic serums that can be made to not work on humans) certainly falls under the category of things that the Alliance really wouldn't be given much leeway in.

Cerberus didn't infiltrate the Alliance. The Alliance grew Cerberus out of itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Never mind. I can't check right now.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:26 .

[Aeowyn]

Just checked. Zulu is right.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus didn't infiltrate the Alliance. The Alliance grew Cerberus out of itself.

According to this very theory, to maintain deniability, Cerberus does have to infiltrate the Alliance proper. So that whenever its operatives get exposed (like Jiro Toshiva), or defect (like Paul Grayson), they can testify under any kind of drugs to any polygraph machine that they are indeed "infiltrators" or have been genuinely recruited by Cerberus. However, the additional costs it imposes on Cerberus operations are minimal, because all anti-Cerberus action of the Alliance's official counter-intelligence organs are blocked by the high-ranking people like Admiral Hackett.

That's the reason why TIM can't tell Shepard that his new position of a Cerberus agent is in fact continuation of his service to the Alliance. Even if it could boost Shepard's morale, it's unacceptable per the deniability protocol.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:59 .

[krimesh]

krimesh wrote...
...Uh, how about the fact that the Alliance works with the Council, while Cerberus is a declared enemy of the council? You can't be both at the same time...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure you can.

krimesh wrote...
Of course one could say that the Alliance is simply fooling the council. But that is just speculation.

It's all there, you know.

If Cerberus is a secret part of the Alliance, then I am a secret a part of the US government. They don't know that I am. But I am anyway.
Come on, if a rear Admiral and the civili authorities (Udina and Anderson) do not know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance, then it is not part of the Alliance. It might have ties with the Alliance, it might have operatives in the ranks of the Alliance, but it is not a part of the Alliance. If you have Kahoku-style friendly fire, it's not friendly fire anymore.

Modifié par krimesh, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:59 .

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

krimesh wrote...
...Uh, how about the fact that the Alliance works with the Council, while Cerberus is a declared enemy of the council? You can't be both at the same time...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure you can.

krimesh wrote...
Of course one could say that the Alliance is simply fooling the council. But that is just speculation.

It's all there, you know.

If Cerberus is a secret part of the Alliance, then I am a secret a part of the US government. They don't know that I am. But I am anyway.
Come on, if a rear Admiral and the civili authorities (Udina and Anderson) do not know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance, then it is not part of the Alliance. It might have ties with the Alliance, it might have operatives in the ranks of the Alliance, but it is not a part of the Alliance. If you have Kahoku-style friendly fire, it's not friendly fire anymore.

You doesn't know that Udina doesn't know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. And what if Fleet Admiral Hackett knows it? Are they part of the Alliance then, of the Alliance's Fleet Admiral is a corrupt infiltrator?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 janvier 2011 - 02:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

krimesh wrote...
...Uh, how about the fact that the Alliance works with the Council, while Cerberus is a declared enemy of the council? You can't be both at the same time...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure you can.

krimesh wrote...
Of course one could say that the Alliance is simply fooling the council. But that is just speculation.

It's all there, you know.

If Cerberus is a secret part of the Alliance, then I am a secret a part of the US government. They don't know that I am. But I am anyway.
Come on, if a rear Admiral and the civili authorities (Udina and Anderson) do not know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance, then it is not part of the Alliance. It might have ties with the Alliance, it might have operatives in the ranks of the Alliance, but it is not a part of the Alliance. If you have Kahoku-style friendly fire, it's not friendly fire anymore.

It's like you've never heard of the concept of Security Clearance before, or how it words.

The most secret things go to a need-to-know business, and not everyone with a high clearance needs to know. A, say, Top Secret security clearance doesn't mean that you can read any Top Secret classification project. It never has. It merely means you can get up to Top Secret in your area of relevance. And in the Black Ops world, if you aren't involved, it isn't relevant to you. Anderson being an Admiral doesn't mean he's authorized to know. Kohaku being an Admiral doesn't mean he's authorized. Udina being an Ambassador doesn't mean he's authorized to know about military black ops. (Though we actually can't say that he doesn't know.)

Governments and organizations have a long, unpleasant, and often unknown history of (a) doing criminal things they shouldn't, and ( doing criminal things they shouldn't against their own people. Certain governments do this more than others, but while we'd like to believe the Alliance wouldn't, there's no reason they couldn't (and every indication they have). Even the US has, for the idea of the greater good, acted against itself in secret.  In the name of testing base security, the US operated a secret team called Red Cell, which did such friendly things as kidnapping Admirals and Generals and their families  (one Admiral twice), and even 'mildly torturing' nuclear codes out of them.

Compared to that? Government coverups against whistleblowers are far, far from unknown. A darker-than-black Black Ops silencing someone who could compromise the fact their both nominally on the same side? Old story.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You doesn't know that Udina doesn't know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. And what if Fleet Admiral Hackett knows it? Are they part of the Alliance then, of the Alliance's Fleet Admiral is a corrupt infiltrator?

In that case, I'd say that he is a corrupt infiltrator indeed.
He cannot not be. If you have one faction, two parts of it do not kill each other. As soon as they do, you have two factions, if you ask me. If you have two factions, Hackett would have to choose one to be truly with. If, after his choice, he is still recognized as part of the other faction, he is, by definition, a spy.

It's like you've never heard of the concept of Security Clearance before, or how it words.

Bah. Security clearance or no, one damn side does not kill itself. When it does, it's two sides, period.

EDIT: In any case there is no proof whatsoever.

Modifié par krimesh, 01 janvier 2011 - 02:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You doesn't know that Udina doesn't know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. And what if Fleet Admiral Hackett knows it? Are they part of the Alliance then, of the Alliance's Fleet Admiral is a corrupt infiltrator?

In that case, I'd say that he is a corrupt infiltrator indeed.
He cannot not be. If you have one faction, two parts of it do not kill each other. As soon as they do, you have two factions, if you ask me. If you have two factions, Hackett would have to choose one to be truly with. If, after his choice, he is still recognized as part of the other faction, he is, by definition, a spy.

Aww, I'm sure Hackett haven't killed anyone in decades!

Seriously, this "faction" thing you just painted is too simplistic. Even street gangs can have more intricate social structures and interactions. And that's even before you factor the cops and undercover cops into the picture.

ME2 example: Cpt. Bailey bargains with an organized crime boss on the Citadel. Is he a criminal himself now?

And were are talking an interstellar political body here.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 janvier 2011 - 02:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

Bah. Security clearance or no, one damn side does not kill itself. When it does, it's two sides, period.

If you want to completely ignore all history, context, caveats, and case studies and examples to the contrary.

But shortening it all to 'bah' sort of epitomizes the intellectual integrity and effort you're applying.

EDIT: In any case there is no proof whatsoever.

Nor is there proof against.

We know Cerberus was created by the Alliance at the highest levels. We know, from TIM himself, that Cerberus maintains strong ties to the Alliance, and at the highest levels.

The only person who's word we have that Cerberus isn't still connected  to or directed by the Alliance at the highest levels was Kohaku... who himself was not in or knowing of the highest levels of the Alliance. And his death can suffer a coverup as well.

We don't know what the exact relationship between TIM and the Alliance is at this point, nor what it was before ME1, when it wasn't 'rogue.' But 'Cerberus never really broke away' remains plausible, possible, and even reasonable.

[krimesh]

I did say that there was room for this theory. My point is that there is no proof. That's it.

My personal opinion is that there is no big conspiracy. Not beyond what we know from the game and the books: there are Cerberus operatives inside the Alliance, and they are cleaned out, when discovered. That's not speculation, but simple fact. Doesn't sound like Alliance's intelligence service (or spec ops or whatever) to me.

Modifié par krimesh, 01 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

I did say that there was room for this theory. My point is that there is no proof. That's it.

My personal opinion is that there is no big conspiracy. Not beyond what we know from the game and the books: there are Cerberus operatives inside the Alliance, and they are cleaned out, when discovered. That's not speculation, but simple fact. Doesn't sound like Alliance's intelligence service (or spec ops or whatever) to me.

It sounded so to Kahoku though.

[Prince of Kemet]

All you have to do is listen to what Jacob tells Shepard on the Cerberus space station at the beginning of the game.....it doesn't get any clearer.

[Arijharn]

Zulu, I remember you saying that there is no evidence of an otherwise Alliance intelligence service, but in the graybox codex entry it does mention that Keiji was rumoured to be a member of such a service before he was kicked out (and beat a charge against treason due to some law that someone can't self-incriminate themselves)

[Zulu_DFA]

Prince of Kemet wrote...

All you have to do is listen to what Jacob tells Shepard on the
Cerberus space station at the beginning of the game.....it doesn't get
any clearer.

You mean his "That's what the Alliance wants people to believe..."?

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu, I remember you saying that there is no evidence of an otherwise Alliance intelligence service, but in the graybox codex entry it does mention that Keiji was rumoured to be a member of such a service before he was kicked out (and beat a charge against treason due to some law that someone can't self-incriminate themselves)

I started this thread before the Kasumi DLC came out and there indeed hadn't been any mention of the ["officilal"] Alliance Intelligence [service] before that. Plus I was probably misled by the statement on the Wiki that Cerberus used to be a part of the Alliance military (which is defininitely false). Hence my initial wording that Shepard "got promoted". I could edit this to be more precise and reflect Cerberus' unofficial status, but decided to leave it be as it still conveys the message and isn't too confusing.

In any case, even if the official intelligence services aren't mentioned they must exist, even if formally, as a facade. For the Alliance to be able to say per the deniability: "Are you nuts? Why would we need need to employ terrorists when we have an official intelligence agency? These allegations of a link between Cerberus and our government are just conspiracy theories spread by a few mentally unstable individuals!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:33 .

[Arijharn]

But doesn't TIM say (or think) in one of the books that he's glad he isn't part of the alliance? I mean, sure it's much more interesting if they are, but you know... it's untenable position to claim that they are when yet another source (and first hand at that) claims otherwise?

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

But doesn't TIM say (or think) in one of the books that he's glad he isn't part of the alliance? I mean, sure it's much more interesting if they are, but you know... it's untenable position to claim that they are when yet another source (and first hand at that) claims otherwise?

Don't you think I've studied this subject most thoroughly? No, there is nothing that can't be interpreted both ways. He does recollect the fact that the Alliance branded Cerberus as terrorists. But it is not said that he disapproves of this. He does think that the Alliance is bogged down with red tape. But it is not said that he thinks the Alliance could have been any other way. He does think the Alliance is too buddy-buddy with the aliens. But it is not said whether he thinks it is a "necessary evil" or not.

TIM is certainly glad that Cerberus isn't an official part of the Alliance. But this doesn't mean that Cerberus isn't an unofficial part of the Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 02:06 .

[Zavox]

Right, that all explains the investigations by the VS/Councilor into Shepard's connection to Cerberus. Or Anderson's sell-out of Cerberus, or Kahoku's investigations and subsequent murder, killing of alliance soldiers, infiltration of ascension project, etc. Just accept Cerberus is rogue, it makes no sense otherwise.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zavox wrote...

Right, that all explains the investigations by the VS/Councilor into Shepard's connection to Cerberus while the official inquiry by an official inversigator into the matter is stalled by Hackett. Or Anderson's sell-out of Cerberus after which he has to quit the Alliance, or Kahoku's investigations being stonewalled and subsequent murder being covered up, killing of alliance soldiers being covered up, the easiness of infiltration of ascension project, etc. Just accept Cerberus isn't rogue, it makes no sense otherwise.

Fixed.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 02:12 .

[Zavox]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Right, that all explains the investigations by the VS/Councilor into Shepard's connection to Cerberus while the official inquiry by an official inversigator into the matter is stalled by Hackett. Or Anderson's sell-out of Cerberus after which he has to quit the Alliance, or Kahoku's investigations being stonewalled and subsequent murder being covered up, killing of alliance soldiers being covered up, the easiness of infiltration of ascension project, etc. Just accept Cerberus isn't rogue, it makes no sense otherwise.

Fixed.

Is not fixed at all. (Not to mention it being childish).

Your supposed point about the denying of an official enquiry is moot because it can be for several reasons. One being "we anticipate releasing him/her from Alliance Custody no later than five to seven months from acquisition.", fact remains, there is an inquiry in him, which there wouldn't have been a need of if Cerberus is a hidden part of the Alliance.

Second point, quiting the Alliance by Anderson is only if Anderson is the assisstant of Udina. If however he is made Councilor he will stay Councilor. (Officially stated by Drew Karpyshyn after some agitation about the book Retribution). Thus again, we can assume it has nothing to do with Cerberus being a hidden part of the Alliance, otherwise he would've been made to resign as Councilor aswell. Furthermore, it was on his own volition, he wasn't forced, which he would be if Cerberus was a hidden part of the Alliance. (He would never have ordered it either, if he knew, which as Councilor he should)

Third point, the Alliance had been infiltrated heavily by Cerberus agents, obviously he's being stonewalled and murdered. Still makes no point for Cerberus as a hidden part of the Alliance. After the events of Retribution even TIM states alot of his agents in the Alliance have been caught and he's afraid of what they will reveal. Which also points to Cerberus being unwanted in the Alliance, and thus rogue.

Fourth point is in essence the same as the previous rebuttal, Alliance had been heavily infiltrated. It's been stated that nothing gets through the ranks of the Alliance without passing atleast one Cerberus loyalists hand.

Fifth point, never has there been any indication the infiltration was easy. Secondly, why do a separate Teltin project when BAaT was already running in the Alliance? Could've piggybacked on that aswell. Thirdly, Jiro was caught, he was even questioned (heavily) by the Alliance, and finally he buckled by admitting he was Cerberus. If Cerberus is a hidden part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have gone through all the trouble before admitting, as he would eventually be safe anyway.

Next?

Modifié par Zavox, 04 janvier 2011 - 03:03 .

[Maestro975]

I keep thinking about Section 31 from Star Trek. S31 might not have been quite as bad as Cerberus (I'm sure someone here will chime in saying "yes they were"), but there were many higher-ups in Starfleet that regarded them as a "necessary evil" to maintain galactic stability, while pubicly denying its existence. It's not hard to picture a similar dynamic between Cerberus and the Alliance, that could be the dark dirty secret that got Keiji Okuda (Kasumi's boyfriend) killed.