798 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Let's just see:

The fact that ingame it is stated that Cerberus is gone rouge after a thorough investigation.

Against:

That never ingame it was mentioned nor even suggest that Shepard could still be part of the Alliance.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

Let's just see:

The fact that ingame it is stated that Cerberus is gone rouge after an unauthorized investigation by a rogue admiral.

Against:

That never ingame it was mentioned nor even suggested that Shepard doesn't have any obligations to the Alliance even though he is technically AWOL.

Fixed.

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Let's just see:

The fact that ingame it is stated that Cerberus is gone rouge after an unauthorized investigation by a rogue admiral.

Against:

That never ingame it was mentioned nor even suggested that Shepard doesn't have any obligations to the Alliance even though he is technically AWOL.

Fixed.

Never was mentioned that Kahoku went rouge, he just was investigating the dead of his men and never was mentioned that it was unauthorized.

Anaway let's put it simple.

It was mentioned that Cerberus went rouge.
It  was not mentioned nor even suggested that Cerberus could still be part of the Alliance/

Modifié par Fixers0, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:07 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Fixers0 wrote...

So, that's the way how you handle it, well come on though guy.

Never was mentioned that Kahoku went rouge, he just was investigating the dead of his men and never was mentioned that it was unauthorized.

Anaway let's put it simple.

It was mentioned that Cerberus went rouge.
It  was not mentioned nor even suggested that Cerberus could still be part of the Alliance/

The argument is saying Cerberus went rogue was a way to allow Cerberus to continue what they do without implicating the Alliance. The Alliance wants them, but not the political fallout.

Kahoku's investigation was in fact unauthorized by the Alliance. He was stonewalled by high level Alliance officials (which is a de facto "drop it" message). He was working with the SB because the Alliance would not help him. It was not an Alliance sanctioned investigation.

Modifié par Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Zavox wrote...

Your supposed point about the denying of an official enquiry is moot because it can be for several reasons. One being "we anticipate releasing him/her from Alliance Custody no later than five to seven months from acquisition.", fact remains, there is an inquiry in him, which there wouldn't have been a need of if Cerberus is a hidden part of the Alliance.

Cerberus is hidden part of the Alliance. It is hidden even from most Alliance officers. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been hidden at all.

Zavox wrote...

Second point, quiting the Alliance by Anderson is only if Anderson is the assisstant of Udina. If however he is made Councilor he will stay Councilor. (Officially stated by Drew Karpyshyn after some agitation about the book Retribution). Thus again, we can assume it has nothing to do with Cerberus being a
hidden part of the Alliance, otherwise he would've been made to resign
as Councilor aswell.

First, it was not stated officially, but in a private e-mail. Secondly, it was misinterpreted by Dean_the_Young. It actually means a polite "Screw you all who chose Anderson!".

Zavox wrote...

 Furthermore, it was on his own volition, he wasn't forced, which he would be if Cerberus was a hidden part of the Alliance. (He would never have ordered it either, if he knew, which as Councilor he should)

It is explicitly stated by Anderson that he was going to face an investigation into his actions, that would result in his deposition anyway.

Zavox wrote.

Third point, the Alliance had been infiltrated heavily by Cerberus agents, obviously he's being stonewalled and murdered.

Yeah, so heavily, that nobody bothers with a lost unit of marines except Kahoku himself.

Zavox wrote.

Still makes no point for Cerberus as a hidden part of the Alliance. After the events of Retribution even TIM states alot of his agents in the Alliance have been caught and he's afraid of what they will reveal. Which also points to Cerberus being unwanted in the Alliance, and thus rogue.

He is afraid that with the extent of exposure of the "infiltration" nobody is going to believe any more that Cerberus is rogue.

Zavox wrote.

Fourth point is in essence the same as the previous rebuttal, Alliance had been heavily infiltrated. It's been stated that nothing gets through the ranks of the Alliance without passing atleast one Cerberus loyalists hand.

And how exactly does this prove that Cerberus is rogue?

Zavox wrote.

Fifth point, never has there been any indication the infiltration was easy.

Except the fact that the Alliance is so heavily infiltrated that nothing escapes Cerberus and snoopy admirals get completely stonewalled.

Zavox wrote.

Secondly, why do a separate Teltin project when BAaT was already running in the Alliance? Could've piggybacked on that aswell.

BAaT was dismantled after Kaidan iced his Turian instructor. Teltin was started a few years later.

Zavox wrote.

Thirdly, Jiro was caught, he was even questioned (heavily) by the Alliance, and finally he buckled by admitting he was Cerberus. If Cerberus is a hidden part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have gone through all the trouble before admitting, as he would eventually be safe anyway.

What? Jiro cracked the very day he was caught. Doesn't mean anything really. He didn't know Cerberus was part of the Alliance, rogue or not. Cerberus operatives are kept in the dark just like the Alliance officers. Need-to-know basis.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:45 .

[Fixers0]

Isn't it much more logical to asume that Cerberus has probably has some operatives hidden in the Alliance command, it could explain a couple of untolled things while not getting to far fetched.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Fixers0 wrote...

Isn't it much more logical to asume that Cerberus has probably has some operatives hidden in the Alliance command, it could explain a couple of untolled things while not getting to far fetched.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't think Cerberus still being a part of the Alliance is far fetched at all.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

Isn't it much more logical to asume that Cerberus has probably has some operatives hidden in the Alliance command, it could explain a couple of untolled things while not getting to far fetched.

It wouldn't explain why would Cerberus go rogue, if they had never been restricted in their activities in the first place.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

Isn't it much more logical to asume that Cerberus has probably has some operatives hidden in the Alliance command, it could explain a couple of untolled things while not getting to far fetched.

More logical?

Not really. You could even argue less logical.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Let's just see:

The fact that ingame it is stated that Cerberus is gone rouge after an unauthorized investigation by a rogue admiral.

Against:

That never ingame it was mentioned nor even suggested that Shepard doesn't have any obligations to the Alliance even though he is technically AWOL.

Fixed.

So, that's the way how you handle it, well come on though guy.

First, it's spelled 'tough'. Second, what is this, a dick-waving contest? Your machismo has no place here.

Never was mentioned that Kahoku went rouge, he just was investigating the dead of his men and never was mentioned that it was unauthorized.

It was.

Anaway let's put it simple.

It was mentioned that Cerberus went rouge.
It  was not mentioned nor even suggested that Cerberus could still be part of the Alliance/

The person(s) who described Cerberus as Rogue have imperfect knowledge. Kohaku was never cleared about Cerberus at all, and the basis in declaring them to be rogue is as much in response to the sort of experiments they conduct as any other factor. Except we have good reason to believe that many of the experiments they performed were sanctioned: much of Kohaku's objections can fit under a category of 'the Alliance would never allow that', which is in no way proving that the Alliance wouldn't do many of those things. The Alliance set up Cerberus in the first place.

It's not explicitly mentioned that Cerberus could still be a part of the Alliance, but there are plenty of things not explicitly mentioned that we are told and encouraged to infer. Much of the lore is like that: we aren't told, for example, that much of Turian military policy would be considered war crimes today, but it's more than apparent if you actually read into it.

What's more relevant is a specific combination of things: there isn't a specific denial, there do remain implausibly high levels of influence on TIM's part within the Alliance, and that it does fit with the story as a whole.


I don't believe in Zulu's theory to the extent he pushes it, but it's not outrageous in the least.

[Fixers0]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Isn't it much more logical to asume that Cerberus has probably has some operatives hidden in the Alliance command, it could explain a couple of untolled things while not getting to far fetched.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't think Cerberus still being a part of the Alliance is far fetched at all.

Well i think it is, you see  we need to look at the way how the story is told and progresses, not at tiny details of a storythat could lead into all directions.

When we were first introduced to Cerberus in Mass Effect 1, we are informed that it was once part of  Alliance, then when we discover all of Cerberus experiments and how they killed Kahoku, we now what kind of Organisation Cerberus is and why the left the Alliance.

In Mass effect 2 we get to now more about Cerberus, while we do learn more about the exact details of Cerberus actions, the game fails remove the damage/bad impression done by the First game, because those events are still in our mind and we care a lot more about.

The fact that were  onceare tolled that they are gone rouge means much more then lots details., since we don't care about anything that happens. (unless you support Cerberus Ideals of course.)




 

Modifié par Fixers0, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:10 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Fixers0 wrote...

Well i think it is, you see  we need to look at the way how the story is told and progresses, not at tiny details of a storythat could lead into all directions.

There really isn't that much evidence coming from Alliance officials that Cerberus is rogue. Kahoku and Anderson are the only ones I can think of.

When we were first introduced to Cerberus in Mass Effect 1, we are informed that it was once part of  Alliance, then when we discover all of Cerberus experiments and how they killed Kahoku, we now what kind of Organisation Cerberus is and why the left the Alliance.

Yes, they are black ops. Black ops organizations do seemingly egregious things secretly so their parent organizations aren't implicated.

In Mass effect 2 we get to now more about Cerberus, while we do learn more about the exact details of Cerberus actions, the game fails remove the damage/bad impression done by the First game, because those events are still in our mind and we care a lot more about.

The fact that were  onceare tolled that they are gone rouge means much more then lots details., since we don't care about anything that happens. (unless you suppor Cerberus Ideals of cours.)

We were only told they went rogue by Kahoku in ME1. He obviously did not know much about them. The fact that the Alliance did not support his investigation is evidence that they have not gone rogue imo.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

When we were first introduced to Cerberus in Mass Effect 1, we are informed that it was once part of  Alliance, then when we discover all of Cerberus experiments and how they killed Kahoku, we now what kind of Organisation Cerberus is and why the left the Alliance.

When and why did Cerberus "left" the Alliance? Teltin was performed before or after Cerberus "left"? Akuze was performed by "Alliance scientists" before or after Cerberus "left"? And why did Cerberus left? To kill Kahoku? The Alliance dign't give a sh*t about Kahoku.

Fixers0 wrote...

In Mass effect 2 we get to now more about Cerberus, while we do learn more about the exact details of Cerberus actions, the game fails remove the damage/bad impression done by the First game, because those events are still in our mind and we care a lot more about.

Damage/bad impression is not the argument for Cerebus being rogue. No in the sense that they are somehow at odds with the Alliance. It's just your opinion on their moral standing. But the Second game gave a lotmore insight into how Cerberus works: "private" contributions by "backers" from the Alliance MIC, overtaking important research projects, TIM's promises to "persoanally notify the Alliance" when the time comes, fleet admirals keeping mid-level Alliance officers off your Cerberus-rebuilt back...

Fixers0 wrote...

The fact that were  onceare tolled that they are gone rouge means much more then lots details., since we don't care about anything that happens. (unless you support Cerberus Ideals of course.)

In other words, Cerberus is rogue because you don't support them. Best argument ever.

[khevan]

I think it's plausible that Cerberus is still an unofficial part of the Alliance. I think it's plausible that they're completely rogue. I personally feel that we don't have enough information either way to tell for certain. Most of what's going on in this thread (on both sides) is speculation. Thoughtful, logical speculation, but it's still just speculation.



I think I'm going to wait until ME3, and see if that clears up the issue before I decide.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

khevan wrote...

I think it's plausible that Cerberus is still an unofficial part of the Alliance. I think it's plausible that they're completely rogue. I personally feel that we don't have enough information either way to tell for certain. Most of what's going on in this thread (on both sides) is speculation. Thoughtful, logical speculation, but it's still just speculation.

I think I'm going to wait until ME3, and see if that clears up the issue before I decide.

I agree. My application of logic has led me to believe the possibility that Cerberus is still part of the Alliance is more likely. But you are right, it is speculation.

[Zavox]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus is hidden part of the Alliance. It is hidden even from most Alliance officers. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been hidden at all.

Yes, you've (and I have) said so already, doesn't negate my point however. Try again.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

First, it was not stated officially, but in a private e-mail. Secondly, it was misinterpreted by Dean_the_Young. It actually means a polite "Screw you all who chose Anderson!".

Ahh, but does a private e-mail matter? If a lead-writer as much as says that Anderson will be councilor if you chose him as councilor and that it was only a neccesity to choose one for the book, you're going to ignore all that and rant on about it not being official and thus your point is valid?

Drew Karpyshyn wrote...
Sometimes for the novels, certain things have to be "taken for granted" in order to tell a story. Anderson couldn't just leave if he was on the Council. But this isn't really a "ret-con", as there was no established canon in the first place.

I realize some people get very upset when something is established that contradicts their personal game experience, and we try to minimize the impact. But if we want to continue expanding the Mass Effect universe, there are times when we have to take certain decisions from the game and go with one alternative over another so we can build on what has happened.

Hopefully the Mass Effect fans will understand our position and not get too bent out of shape.

Drew"

He's pretty much saying that in your personal game Anderson will still be councilor if you chose him as such, it's just that they had to make a certain canon choice for the novels and further itterations of Mass Effect (not ME3), as he cannot build on the story otherwise.

Also, this email was send to DaBigDragon, not Dean_the_Young. Quite a few have interpretted it the way they did, and I do. Plus I'd like to add that I find your arrogance, to say their interpretation is plain wrong and yours is right, completely absurd. If any is, it's DaBigDragon's, as it was his email not yours, not Dean's.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It is explicitly stated by Anderson that he was going to face an investigation into his actions, that would result in his deposition anyway.

Page?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, so heavily, that nobody bothers with a lost unit of marines except Kahoku himself.

And your point is? If anything it makes Kahoku look like a good person.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

He is afraid that with the extent of exposure of the "infiltration" nobody is going to believe any more that Cerberus is rogue.

Crackpot theory, everything points to the contrary. He even so much as states that the core of Cerberus is safe. If the core of Cerberus is safe that definately implies that Cerberus won't be found out as not being rogue.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And how exactly does this prove that Cerberus is rogue?

Easy, why would a hidden agency which isn't rogue need so many infiltrators in the Alliance? They would get their information either way, because high ranking officers will know they work for the Alliance.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Except the fact that the Alliance is so heavily infiltrated that nothing escapes Cerberus and snoopy admirals get completely stonewalled.

Ahh, that's nice and all, but still doesn't show it's easy. If anything it shows that Alliance officers can be bought.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BAaT was dismantled after Kaidan iced his Turian instructor. Teltin was started a few years later.

Source? Nevermind, you won't find that source anyway.
BAaT ran from 2160 to 2169
Teltin Project started in 2165 as the latest date, as that is the time that Jack was kidnapped for the Teltin Facility.

Please do try again to lie your way through an argument...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What? Jiro cracked the very day he was caught. Doesn't mean anything really. He didn't know Cerberus was part of the Alliance, rogue or not. Cerberus operatives are kept in the dark just like the Alliance officers. Need-to-know basis.

*sigh* how does cracking the very day he was caught relate to harsh questioning? I find it pretty amazing if someone can keep shut for a couple of days actually.

Why wouldn't he know, if you as a Cerberus operative know you can count on the Alliance to cover you, it makes your live that much easier and missions aswell. It could cost Cerberus loads of skilled operatives if none knew and would go out in a blaze of glory against Alliance soldiers.

It's just plain idiotic not to let your operatives know. But then again, it's all hypothetical as none of this is the case. Cerberus is rogue. Just wait until 13th of January, you'll probably read it in the comic anyway.

P.S. Might I add that this is backwards thinking you are doing? You want Cerberus to be a part of the Alliance, and thus you start finding evidence. Comming to a logical conclusion works the other way around, just saying.

Modifié par Zavox, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

My name is Legion wrote...

I don't see the argument of 'Cerberus is still part of the Alliance', after all in the codex on them it reveals that Cerberus is a major embarrassment and a hinderance to the Alliance. It seems couter-productive for the Alliance to support an agency who is doing harm to humanity's reputation.

That is exactly why they are not officially supporting them. They want Cerberus to continue what they are doing, but they don't want the political fallout that comes with it. Declaring Cerberus as "rogue" lets the Alliance have the best of both worlds.

[Zavox]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

My name is Legion wrote...

I don't see the argument of 'Cerberus is still part of the Alliance', after all in the codex on them it reveals that Cerberus is a major embarrassment and a hinderance to the Alliance. It seems couter-productive for the Alliance to support an agency who is doing harm to humanity's reputation.

That is exactly why they are not officially supporting them. They want Cerberus to continue what they are doing, but they don't want the political fallout that comes with it. Declaring Cerberus as "rogue" lets the Alliance have the best of both worlds.

Yet... Codex... There's never been any character in game that said Cerberus could still be part of the Alliance, nor any real evidence to suggest such a thing. What you are doing is wishful thinking, bending the evidence to suit your opinion. Just look at the raw evidence, the codex, Kahoku, Anderson, etc.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zavox wrote...

Yet... Codex... There's never been any character in game that said Cerberus could still be part of the Alliance, nor any real evidence to suggest such a thing. What you are doing is wishful thinking, bending the evidence to suit your opinion. Just look at the raw evidence, the codex, Kahoku, Anderson, etc.

Could you link the codex entry you are referring to? Why Kahoku is not reliable has been addressed multiple times already. Anderson is probably kept in the dark about Cerberus because everyone knows he's a raging idealist. If you take the accounts of two people as absolute truth on a subject you will have the propensity to be misled very easily.

@Legion

They have private backing because:

1. People will give them money, so why would the Alliance budget them funds if they don't need them?
2. A money trail is very good evidence that Cerberus is still part of the Alliance. The Alliance does not want this evidence to exist (for obvious reasons).

Modifié par Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams, 04 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[Fixers0]

Let's keep a couple of things clear.

1, Kahoku was not blocked by the Alliance or anything liked that. He wanted to arrange a meeting with the Council to help him investigating the dead of his man.

2. Since he could't arrange anything with the council, he was forced to use the Shadowbroker.

3. Kahoku allready knew That Cerberus was gone rouge. He only needed the Shadowbroker to find out who was behind the attack.

4. The missions about Cerberus in Mass effect 1 leaves a bad impression upon Cerberus, Mass effect 2  triess to cure it by showing us all kinds of reason,details whatever. but fails miserably because the damgae has been done.



 
                       

Modifié par Fixers0, 04 janvier 2011 - 08:01 .

[Zavox]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Could you link the codex entry you are referring to? Why Kahoku is not reliable has been addressed multiple times already. Anderson is probably kept in the dark about Cerberus because everyone knows he's a raging idealist. If you take the accounts of two people as absolute truth on a subject you will have the propensity to be misled very easily.

I take the account of 2 persons in the game over none any day, but I'm not saying I have the absolute truth, I'm just saying it's highly unlikely given what we've seen so far that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. Furthermore, there's loads of circumstantial evidence that points to Cerberus being rogue, and again, virtually none against it. My stance has alot more evidence than yours (which is close to none, if not none), so please... don't talk to me about being misled.

Codex link: http://masseffect.wi...x/Organizations

Refer to the first 2, it heavily implies Cerberus is rogue with words such as: syndicate, seditionist, terrorists, denounced as, threaten human representatives.

Modifié par Zavox, 04 janvier 2011 - 08:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Zavox wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus is hidden part of the Alliance. It is hidden even from most Alliance officers. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been hidden at all.[/quote]

Yes, you've (and I have) said so already, doesn't negate my point however. Try again.
[/quote]
I don't have to negate your points. You have to negate mine. Saying "Cerberus is rogue because nobody knows it isn't" does not negate my point, because my point is  "nobody knows Cerberus isn't rogue".


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

First, it was not stated officially, but in a private e-mail. Secondly, it was misinterpreted by Dean_the_Young. It actually means a polite "Screw you all who chose Anderson!".[/quote]

Ahh, but does a private e-mail matter? If a lead-writer as much as says that Anderson will be councilor if you chose him as councilor and that it was only a neccesity to choose one for the book, you're going to ignore all that and rant on about it not being official and thus your point is valid?

[quote]Drew Karpyshyn wrote...
Sometimes for the novels, certain things have to be "taken for granted" in order to tell a story. Anderson couldn't just leave if he was on the Council. But this isn't really a "ret-con", as there was no established canon in the first place.

I realize some people get very upset when something is established that contradicts their personal game experience, and we try to minimize the impact. But if we want to continue expanding the Mass Effect universe, there are times when we have to take certain decisions from the game and go with one alternative over another so we can build on what has happened.

Hopefully the Mass Effect fans will understand our position and not get too bent out of shape.

Drew"[/quote]
[/quote]
So where exactly does he say this: "Anderson will be councilor if you chose him as councilor"?

Hint: by "established canon" Drew means the events that are set in stone in the series, those have no alternate versions in different players' games.

And indeed he tried to minimize the impact. He could as well "take for granted" that the old Council was killed, that the C-Base was salvaged. Just for the sake of his fanfic novel that needed not to fit everyone's game experience, like the one Retribution is if we go by your interpretation.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

He's pretty much saying that in your personal game Anderson will still be councilor if you chose him as such, it's just that they had to make a certain canon choice for the novels and further itterations of Mass Effect (not ME3), as he cannot build on the story otherwise.

Also, this email was send to DaBigDragon, not Dean_the_Young. Quite a few have interpretted it the way they did, and I do. Plus I'd like to add that I find your arrogance, to say their interpretation is plain wrong and yours is right, completely absurd. If any is, it's DaBigDragon's, as it was his email not yours, not Dean's.
[/quote]
Whatever, but be advised: race for a big surprize in ME3. Anderson won't be councillor there.

And if you feel offended by my "arrogance", just send Drew another e-mail, so that you all could make me learn my place. We'll see how it goes.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

It is explicitly stated by Anderson that he was going to face an investigation into his actions, that would result in his deposition anyway.[/quote]
Page?
[/quote]
Somewhere between the first and the last. I'm not in the mood to compensat you for the lack of memory. I'll give you a hint though: I believe it's in the chapter where Anderson and Kahlee set out to the Cerberus spacelab already captured by the Turians.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, so heavily, that nobody bothers with a lost unit of marines except Kahoku himself.[/quote]

And your point is? If anything it makes Kahoku look like a good person.
[/quote]
My point is that if such persons are so rare in the Alliance that they can't even find each other in the crowd of Cerberus "infiltrators", Cerberus indeed isn't a part of the Alliance. The Alliance is a part of Cerberus!


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

He is afraid that with the extent of exposure of the "infiltration" nobody is going to believe any more that Cerberus is rogue.[/quote]
Crackpot theory, everything points to the contrary. He even so much as states that the core of Cerberus is safe. If the core of Cerberus is safe that definately implies that Cerberus won't be found out as not being rogue.[/quote]
Everything points to what exactly?

And the core of Cerberus being safe after the attack does prove that it is rogue how exactly?


[quote]Zavox wrote...

Easy, why would a hidden agency which isn't rogue need so many infiltrators in the Alliance? They would get their information either way, because high ranking officers will know they work for the Alliance.
[/quote]
Then everybody would know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance and blame the Alliance for everything Cerberus does, including "evil experiments" and assassinations. Do you even understand what "black ops" means what what they are for?


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Except the fact that the Alliance is so heavily infiltrated that nothing escapes Cerberus and snoopy admirals get completely stonewalled.[/quote]
Ahh, that's nice and all, but still doesn't show it's easy. If anything it shows that Alliance officers can be bought.
[/quote]Sure they can. In droves. Wholesale.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

BAaT was dismantled after Kaidan iced his Turian instructor. Teltin was started a few years later.[/quote]

Source? Nevermind, you won't find that source anyway.
BAaT ran from 2160 to 2169
Teltin Project started in 2165 as the latest date, as that is the time that Jack was kidnapped for the Teltin Facility.

Please do try again to lie your way through an argument... [/quote]
All right. You scored big. Zulu screwed up with a fact and you nailed him!

Still BAaT in no way precludes Cerberus from running a parallel, more decisive program. Rogue or not. And it wasn't at the time anyway.

[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

What? Jiro cracked the very day he was caught. Doesn't mean anything really. He didn't know Cerberus was part of the Alliance, rogue or not. Cerberus operatives are kept in the dark just like the Alliance officers. Need-to-know basis.[/quote]

*sigh* how does cracking the very day he was caught relate to harsh questioning? I find it pretty amazing if someone can keep shut for a couple of days actually.
[/quote]
Are you saying the Alliance tortured Jiro before he cracked?


[quote]Zavox wrote...

Why wouldn't he know, if you as a Cerberus operative know you can count on the Alliance to cover you, it makes your live that much easier and missions aswell.
[/quote]
Because in the situation Jiro found himself in the opertives can divulge this secret. And they don't really need to know that their life is easier than it looks. They must stay sharp and focused.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

It could cost Cerberus loads of skilled operatives if none knew and would go out in a blaze of glory against Alliance soldiers.
[/quote]
How can Cerberus lose "loads" of operatives, if the losses are only accidental, since everytime some mid-level place-hunter wants to score big and asks for permit of an actio that would expose Cerberus infiltrators, he gets a "request denied" treatment. And a truly "skilled" operative should not find himself in a situation where going out in a blaze of glory is required, unless he is set up by his own side? Jiro was sloppy and got caught. Plus he cracked fast. I don't think TIM will move a finger to get him out of jail.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

It's just plain idiotic not to let your operatives know.
[/quote]
It's plain idiotic to let your operatives know anything outside their current mission.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

But then again, it's all hypothetical as none of this is the case. Cerberus is rogue. Just wait until 13th of January, you'll probably read it in the comic anyway.
[/quote]
Cerberus is only going to be created in the end of #3, in March. And I seriously expect that it will be shown how the thing was blessed by some high-ranking Alliance figure(s). Won't prove anything to you though, as you'll say: "OK, we always knew they were part of the Alliance at some point, but since then they've gone rogue!"


[quote]Zavox wrote...

P.S. Might I add that this is backwards thinking you are doing? You want Cerberus to be a part of the Alliance, and thus you start finding evidence. Comming to a logical conclusion works the other way around, just saying.
[/quote]
What makes you think that I want Cerberus to be a part of the Alliance? Are you a shrink? Takes a very talented shrink to get into my head even outside of Internet, I assure you. And what you call "backwards thinking" is in fact a hypothesis. And hypotheses are involved in all scientific theories out there.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:37 .

[Zavox]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I don't have to negate your points. You have to negate mine. Saying "Cerberus is rogue because nobody knows it isn't" does not negate my point, because my point is  "nobody knows Cerberus isn't rogue".[/quote]

Wait, what? It has been said IN GAME that Cerberus is rogue, I'm only saying what has been said in the game. As in, repeating, thus I don't have to prove anything. YOU on the other hand, state something new, which hasn't been heard in the game yet. So the burden of proof is actually on you, not on me. Whenever I bring new arguments to the table, you're going to have to negate them or your 'proof' falls in the water.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

So where exactly does he say this: "Anderson will be councilor if you chose him as councilor"?

Hint: by "established canon" Drew means the events that are set in stone in the series, those have no alternate versions in different players' games.

And indeed he tried to minimize the impact. He could as well "take for granted" that the old Council was killed, that the C-Base was salvaged. Just for the sake of his fanfic novel that needed not to fit everyone's game experience, like the one Retribution is if we go by your interpretation.[/quote]

Since when does someone have to write it literally for someone else to understand... I had boldened the parts that convey the message that the novel does not interfer with your own ME trilogy canon game. It does however interfer with other stories and games in the Mass Effect universe, as the novels are canon.

Established canon has nothing to do with this, as the established canon he's talking about is for the novels.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Whatever, but be advised: race for a big surprize in ME3. Anderson won't be councillor there.

And if you feel offended by my "arrogance", just send Drew another e-mail, so that you all could make me learn my place. We'll see how it goes.[/quote]

I wouldn't be surprised either, I can see how in light of resources within Bioware they'll make Anderson step down as councilor. However, it won't be done as you think, they won't just magically exchange Udina and Anderson in certain games. It won't be exactly as Retribution says it is.

Why the heck do I have to send an e-mail? And neither am I offended, I couldn't care less if you were arrogant. I was just pointing out that believing you know how to interpret the e-mail without having been involved in any messaging between the parties is arrogant.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Somewhere between the first and the last. I'm not in the mood to compensat you for the lack of memory. I'll give you a hint though: I believe it's in the chapter where Anderson and Kahlee set out to the Cerberus spacelab already captured by the Turians.[/quote]

Thank you very much, I've looked it up and I find that my memory is actually better than yours apperantly. I had my doubts about the way you've put it. Which is why I asked for a page in case I missed something. Nevertheless I think I know which part you mean and I don't agree with your interpretation of it.

"Actually, I resigned my post," Anderson said.
"Udina was threatening to launch some massive investigation into what he called my 'inappropriate diplomatic relations' with the turians."
"The Alliance brass was going to put me on administrative leave until it was all sorted out, so I told Udina to cram his investigation up his ass and I quit"

It's quite a leap to come from this, to a certain deposition (unless you meant a short one, which is certain). Nevertheless, if Anderson is councilor, Udina could've threatened all he want, he would've been told to cram his investigation up his ass and be fired.
Secondly, I'm not sure that this investigation would result in Anderson being put in his place. Alot of Cerberus operatives got cleaned up, aswell as corrupt Alliance brass. In light of those results I can see him get exhonered.
Regardless though, Anderson resigned himself. He wasn't forced out.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

My point is that if such persons are so rare in the Alliance that they can't even find each other in the crowd of Cerberus "infiltrators", Cerberus indeed isn't a part of the Alliance. The Alliance is a part of Cerberus![/quote]

Then you need to learn the concept of chain of command. If only one is corrupt in the chain of command, you can **** all you want, your request won't get through that person.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Everything points to what exactly?

And the core of Cerberus being safe after the attack does prove that it is rogue how exactly?[/quote]

Start using your brain... obviously I refered to all evidence pointing towards TIM being afraid of further fall-out for his organisation in funding and men. If the core of Cerberus is safe, than it cannot be found out that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. If in such a hypothetical situation it was found out, the core would neither be safe. So he wasn't afraid of being found in league with the Alliance as you stated (which is why I said crackpot theory). I never implied though this proves he's rogue, it's circumstantial evidence though that he is. As he's afraid about losing men and funding, which he wouldn't be if he knew he was part of the Alliance.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Then everybody would know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance and blame the Alliance for everything Cerberus does, including "evil experiments" and assassinations. Do you even understand what "black ops" means what what they are for?[/quote]

Yes, and black ops do not have massive infiltration in government organisations... seriously, you didn't understand my point, did you? I've never heard of a black ops organisation having heavily infiltrated their own country, they actually get ordered to do certain operations by a 'superior', after which the records of that order are destroyed. Thus you get plausible deniability, only the 'superior' and the black ops know.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sure they can. In droves. Wholesale.[/quote]

Nice comment, I can regard this as your acceptance to my argument? (since you do not seem able to respond normally)

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

All right. You scored big. Zulu screwed up with a fact and you nailed him!

Still BAaT in no way precludes Cerberus from running a parallel, more decisive program. Rogue or not. And it wasn't at the time anyway.[/quote]

Who had such a good memory eh? Also, source to your evidence Cerberus not yet being rogue at the time? To my knowledge they actually went rogue a few years after the First Contact War. It seems especially unlikely that the Alliance would set up BAaT and then Cerberus runs a parallel project if they were still in league with eachother. Teltin seems more decisive as you've correctly stated, so there wouldn't have been a need for BAaT anymore if they were in league with eachother.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Are you saying the Alliance tortured Jiro before he cracked?[/quote]

Pretty much, not in the cracking of bones kind of way, but I wouldn't deny waterboarding and such. Or just the prospect of a 50 years sentence might've done. Can't know what they did, I just know it stated he was heavily interrogated before cracking.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because in the situation Jiro found himself in the opertives can divulge this secret. And they don't really need to know that their life is easier than it looks. They must stay sharp and focused.[/quote]

Good point, there's the risk they could divulge. But that's just as much as they could divulge they're Cerberus and spew their guts on the other agents they know, and voilá domino.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

How can Cerberus lose "loads" of operatives, if the losses are only accidental, since everytime some mid-level place-hunter wants to score big and asks for permit of an actio that would expose Cerberus infiltrators, he gets a "request denied" treatment. And a truly "skilled" operative should not find himself in a situation where going out in a blaze of glory is required, unless he is set up by his own side? Jiro was sloppy and got caught. Plus he cracked fast. I don't think TIM will move a finger to get him out of jail.[/quote]

Has been stated indeed that TIM would most likely not move a finger for Jinro. However, Retribution shows that Kai Leng had been close to dying a couple of times, especially to Anderson. Now, if only they knew huh? Regardless, I don't see how you think Cerberus operatives are better than Alliance operatives. It doesn't matter if the Cerberus operative is skilled, if the Alliance operative is aswell they're both in tough luck. In light of the recent action against Cerberus by Anderson, if Cerberus knew they would be free to go once in Alliance hands, they wouldn't have to have gone out in a blaze of glory. Get my point? Once found out, they're in a world of hurt, which they wouldn't be if they only knew that hypothetical situation.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's plain idiotic to let your operatives know anything outside their current mission.[/quote]

Depends, Kai Leng, Miranda, Grayson and Jacob seemed to know a good deal. Sure, if they are incompetent you wouldn't. But if they're highly loyal and relatively smart, why not? They are expensive assets, you would want to do everything in your power to keep them alive, no?

[quote]
Cerberus is only going to be created in the end of #3, in March. And I seriously expect that it will be shown how the thing was blessed by some high-ranking Alliance figure(s). Won't prove anything to you though, as you'll say: "OK, we always knew they were part of the Alliance at some point, but since then they've gone rogue!"[/quote]

True enough, thanks for that, lets wait until March then shall we?
I do expect them to show it, as it's about the Illusive Man. They will definately imply either way.

Good to know that you've already figured me out... <_< Seriously though, if there's evidence that conveys a likelyhood that Cerberus is still with the Alliance, I would be the first to admit it. I'm not that stuck-up as you apparently seem to think. There's just no evidence so far.

[quote]Zavox wrote...

What makes you think that I want Cerberus to be a part of the Alliance? Are you a shrink? Takes a very talented shrink to get into my head even outside of Internet, I assure you. And what you call "backwards thinking" is in fact a hypothesis. And hypotheses are involved in all scientific theories out there.
[/quote]

It's obvious, I don't need to get in your head for it. You're a fan of Cerberus, and on top of that, you're advocating for your stance without substantial evidence. All the evidence you've portrayed so far is hugely bend out of context, not to mention it being flawed evidence. You're nitpicking, and all the while you do not believe in game evidence as the Codex, Kahoku, Council, Anderson, etc.

About the hypothesis part, you're almost completely wrong. One does indeed have a preconcepted idea, but then one looks at ALL the evidence in an impartial way with tests that are also previously thought out as to be impartial. You however, have an idea and nitpick the evidence pointing to your theory (which is very scarce compared to the evidence pointing to the contrary). If we were to make an impartial tally (impartial test) about in-game evidence for either way, you would sorely lose for there is next to none.