798 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

My name is Legion wrote...

I don't see the argument of 'Cerberus is still part of the Alliance', after all in the codex on them it reveals that Cerberus is a major embarrassment and a hinderance to the Alliance. It seems couter-productive for the Alliance to support an agency who is doing harm to humanity's reputation.

Right, it is counter-intuitive to publicly support Cerberus, but that's why they aren't and won't. Think of it this way, if Cerberus studied husks and they found out more efficient ways to distribute medi-gel/painkillers to marines on the ground for example; who do you think would benefit? It'd be the Systems Alliance. Remember; if Cerberus gets a great deal of funding from it's front organisations, then the more ethically unpleasant pursuits of Cerberus and their net results would filter back. For example; the biotic 'improvements' shown by Subject Zero's nano-surgery are very likely to have resulted in next generation L implants.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Zavox wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I don't have to negate your points. You have to negate mine. Saying "Cerberus is rogue because nobody knows it isn't" does not negate my point, because my point is  "nobody knows Cerberus isn't rogue".[/quote]

Wait, what? It has been said IN GAME that Cerberus is rogue, I'm only saying what has been said in the game.
[/quote]
The nature of this game is such that not everything that is being said there is true. "Cerberus rogue" was said by an NPC who admitted himself that he was not very well informed. Plus, as I pointed out in the post that is specifically linked in the OP, the meaning of the word "rogue" may be vague and not necessarily involve the "out of control" part.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

in, repeating, thus I don't have to prove anything.
[/quote]
Fine. Than what are you doing here? Telling me Kahoku said Cerberus went rogue? Thank you so much, but I knew it long ago. Have you even bothered with reading the openning post?


[quote]Zavox wrote...

YOU on the other hand, state something new, which hasn't been heard in the game yet. So the burden of proof is actually on you, not on me.
[/quote]
The proof is there in the OP. Under the subtitle that looks like this: PROOF. If you aren't convinced, move along, I can't help you.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

Whenever I bring new arguments to the table, you're going to have to negate them or your 'proof' falls in the water.
[/quote]
I havn't seen any new arguments against the theory in this thread for months. As opposed to new arguments for the theory. For example, the LotSB DLC alone added quite a few.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Whatever, but be advised: race for a big surprize in ME3. Anderson won't be councillor there.

And if you feel offended by my "arrogance", just send Drew another e-mail, so that you all could make me learn my place. We'll see how it goes.[/quote]

I wouldn't be surprised either, I can see how in light of resources within Bioware they'll make Anderson step down as councilor. However, it won't be done as you think, they won't just magically exchange Udina and Anderson in certain games. It won't be exactly as Retribution says it is.[/quote]
Actually, I was the first one to suggest that there will be some sort of explanation in ME3, like "the 1st term of office expired and Anderson wasn't reappointed." And that no such explanation was possible in Retribution because in some games Anderson was never on the Council. But than Dean challenged this with Drew's e-mail, and I took a closer look at it. And realized that Drew really said there: "Take it for granted, guys!". Still, I think there will be an explanation in ME3.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

My point is that if such persons are so rare in the Alliance that they can't even find each other in the crowd of Cerberus "infiltrators", Cerberus indeed isn't a part of the Alliance. The Alliance is a part of Cerberus![/quote]

Then you need to learn the concept of chain of command. If only one is corrupt in the chain of command, you can **** all you want, your request won't get through that person.
[/quote]
Having served myself in the army, trust me, I've learnt most of what there is to know about the concept of chain of command. If my superior is simply an ****, I can **** all I want. But if he is in a clear dereliction of duty I always have an option to go to his superior and "rat him out". It's not very common though, because integrity is too valued there. Which makes people like Kahoku and Anderson, who seem to have no compunctions about washing Alliance's dirty laundry in public, rather despicable by military standards.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
obviously I refered to all evidence pointing towards TIM being afraid of further fall-out for his organisation in funding and men. If the core of Cerberus is safe, than it cannot be found out that Cerberus is part of the Alliance. If in such a hypothetical situation it was found out, the core would neither be safe. So he wasn't afraid of being found in league with the Alliance as you stated (which is why I said crackpot theory). I never implied though this proves he's rogue, it's circumstantial evidence though that he is. As he's afraid about losing men and funding, which he wouldn't be if he knew he was part of the Alliance.
[/quote]
Actually, TIM wasn't afraid. He was quite confident that in time Cerberus will recover.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

Yes, and black ops do not have massive infiltration in government organisations... seriously, you didn't understand my point, did you? I've never heard of a black ops organisation having heavily infiltrated their own country, they actually get ordered to do certain operations by a 'superior', after which the records of that order are destroyed. Thus you get plausible deniability, only the 'superior' and the black ops know.
[/quote]
Just like I say: TIM takes his "orders" from a very few people on the very top of the Alliance, one of whom is probably Admiral Hackett, so nobody else knows that Cerberus carries out black ops on behalf of the Alliance. And the "infiltration" is just a logistical arrangement for resource and information transfer from the official Alliance elements to Cerberus.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

source to your evidence Cerberus not yet being rogue at the time? To my knowledge they actually went rogue a few years after the First Contact War.
[/quote]
Source?


[quote]Zavox wrote...

Pretty much, not in the cracking of bones kind of way, but I wouldn't deny waterboarding and such. Or just the prospect of a 50 years sentence might've done. Can't know what they did, I just know it stated he was heavily interrogated before cracking.
[/quote]
In other words, the Alliance did to Jiro what Cerberus would do to a captive. Which puts the Alliance pretty much on the same side of the good and evil as Cerberus, doesn't it? You really seem to work my way here.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because in the situation Jiro found himself in the opertives can divulge this secret. And they don't really need to know that their life is easier than it looks. They must stay sharp and focused.[/quote]

Good point, there's the risk they could divulge. But that's just as much as they could divulge they're Cerberus and spew their guts on the other agents they know, and voilá domino.
[/quote]
Lol. This is the main point. And to insure there isn't a "voila domino" every time somebody slips up, TIM runs Cerberus as a network of cells. BTW, even Jiro didn't blow Grayson's cover, even after being waterboarded, er?

In any case the main secret is protected because nobody knows it who can divulge it.


[quote]Zavox wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's plain idiotic to let your operatives know anything outside their current mission.[/quote]

Depends, Kai Leng, Miranda, Grayson and Jacob seemed to know a good deal.[/quote]

Having been on quite a few missions they sure had some baggage. However, they never needed to know that Cerberus is part of the Alliance, so they don't know it and can't divulge. Although Jacob seems to suspect something.


[quote]Zavox wrote...

you're advocating for your stance without substantial evidence. All the evidence you've portrayed so far is hugely bend out of context, not to mention it being flawed evidence. You're nitpicking, and all the while you do not believe in game evidence as the Codex, Kahoku, Council, Anderson, etc.
[/quote]
Then why haven't you commented on every piece of my evidence in the OP and are instead "nitpicking" about how Cerberus wouldn't start a second biotic lab?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:29 .

[88mphSlayer]

i don't know about being a part of the alliance but it seems pretty apparent that Cerberus is supported by a lot of humans in the Alliance itself, they seem to do the Alliance's dirty work as it were and The Illusive Man seems to be the Alliance's answer to The Shadow Broker network which itself works with The Council



as for being evil, literally every organization in ME1 that isn't government is evil, and most of said organizations are run by humans... it's safe to say humanity is willing to forego morals in general in the Mass Effect universe, making Cerberus if anything... just the status quo for humanity in these games



so yeah, the Alliance and Cerberus are probably pretty cozy

[lovgreno]

88mphSlayer wrote...

as for being evil, literally every organization in ME1 that isn't government is evil, and most of said organizations are run by humans... it's safe to say humanity is willing to forego morals in general in the Mass Effect universe, making Cerberus if anything... just the status quo for humanity in these games

To me it seems like everyone with power, Council, Alliance ect... and those who seeks power, Krogan Clans, Cerbederp, etc... are at least amoral (some points of wievs would call it evil) in ME.

But more to topic: Cerberus still being a part of the Alliance is just speculations. So we are basicaly free to read the hints the game gives us the way we prefer it.

[Fixers0]

You don't seem to get my point do you?



The fact that it was once mementioned in Mass Effect 1 that Cerberus has rogue, means a lot more then all the tiny bitz of details we find in Mass Effect 2.



This just depends on your perspective if you look at it from a story progression way, it becomes clear, that one line in a dialogue mentioning that Cerberus went rogue was enought to cover the subject, sure there are some suspecios details that can be found in Mass effect 2, but the fact is made that Cerberus has gone rogue because of all their experiments conflicted with the Alliance's Morals.



Kahoku is not as important as you might think, he is just there to inform us about Cerberus and to give us a mission to uncoverer what we are up agains, the Fact that Kahoku had Problems in getting help from the Council sounded more as a reference that Humans are treated as Second-class citiziens by the Council then conspiracy.

[Delta Green]

Im sorry, i did not read through the entire thread but did anyone else find it strange that a manifesto calling for a human survivalist movement, a "cerberus" was released shortly after first contact?



And that years later (or not who knows?) an alliance black ops formed was named Cerberus?



Thats a strange coincidence

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

88mphSlayer wrote...

as for being evil, literally every organization in ME1 that isn't government is evil, and most of said organizations that we know of are run by humans... it's safe to say humanity everyone is willing to forego morals in general in the Mass Effect universe real life, making Cerberus if anything... just the status quo for humanity everyone in these games real life

fix'd

[ReiSilver]

Delta Green wrote...

Im sorry, i did not read through the entire thread but did anyone else find it strange that a manifesto calling for a human survivalist movement, a "cerberus" was released shortly after first contact?

And that years later (or not who knows?) an alliance black ops formed was named Cerberus?

Thats a strange coincidence

Was it really implied to be a coinidence?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

ReiSilver wrote...

Delta Green wrote...

Im sorry, i did not read through the entire thread but did anyone else find it strange that a manifesto calling for a human survivalist movement, a "cerberus" was released shortly after first contact?

And that years later (or not who knows?) an alliance black ops formed was named Cerberus?

Thats a strange coincidence

Was it really implied to be a coinidence?

This. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence, and it was never intended to be by the people who wrote the manifesto (in-game) or the writers of the Mass Effect lore.

[wolfsite]

Okay just for the record everyone has to remember that the pro-cerberus people have a tendency to view any factual information about Cerberus that they don't like as myth and never happenned since it hurts there arguement (Just go check the other thread for proof)

I was just playing ME1 again and at the Cerberus centre that was handling the crazed Rachni they even said they were hiding from the Alliance and only had to worry about pirates.  Then later the one officer admitted they shouldn't have treated them like animals and the crazed Rachni got loose and ended up killing a number of Alliance detachments.

[Jagri]

wolfsite wrote...

Okay just for the record everyone has to remember that the pro-cerberus people have a tendency to view any factual information about Cerberus that they don't like as myth and never happenned since it hurts there arguement (Just go check the other thread for proof)

I was just playing ME1 again and at the Cerberus centre that was handling the crazed Rachni they even said they were hiding from the Alliance and only had to worry about pirates.  Then later the one officer admitted they shouldn't have treated them like animals and the crazed Rachni got loose and ended up killing a number of Alliance detachments.

I dismiss that ever happening in Mass Effect 1. It is your typical poor story writing and need to add to the over all length of a game with what is typically known as "side quests". In my playthrough I avoided such "side quests" so it never happened and I can dismiss it from the topic and debate at hand.

Would that be a typical example Wolfsite?

At this point trying to seperate the System Alliance from Cerberus would be a challange even it was only a few key System Alliance personal who was involed with Cerberus.

Modifié par Jagri, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[wolfsite]

Jagri wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

Okay just for the record everyone has to remember that the pro-cerberus people have a tendency to view any factual information about Cerberus that they don't like as myth and never happenned since it hurts there arguement (Just go check the other thread for proof)

I was just playing ME1 again and at the Cerberus centre that was handling the crazed Rachni they even said they were hiding from the Alliance and only had to worry about pirates.  Then later the one officer admitted they shouldn't have treated them like animals and the crazed Rachni got loose and ended up killing a number of Alliance detachments.

I dismiss that ever happening in Mass Effect 1. It is your typical poor story writing and need to add to the over all length of a game with what is typically known as "side quests". In my playthrough I avoided such "side quests" so it never happened and I can dismiss it from the topic and debate at hand.

Would that be a typical example Wolfsite?

At this point trying to seperate the System Alliance from Cerberus would be a challange even it was only a few key System Alliance personal who was involed with Cerberus.

See?  Told ya.  That's why you don't argue with pro-Cerberus they just close there eyes cover there ears and scream "LA-LA-LA-LA"


Plus why are you playing a Bioware game if you are contantly saying the story writing is so poor, that  fact that you are so pro-cebverus-which was created by said writers- would seem to contradict that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

"Alliance's Morals."

What a nonsense.

Fixers0 wrote...

the Fact that Kahoku had Problems in getting help from the Council sounded more as a reference that Humans are treated as Second-class citiziens by the Council then conspiracy.

Why would the Council help him? Missing Alliance marines in the Alliance space seems like an internal problem of the Alliance to me. Why would he even go to the Council before trying out all the Alliance options he could?

It is also said in the game that the Omega was built by the Protheans, and the Reapers are trapped in dark space, none of which is true to our metagaming knowledge. There are other examples when NPCs lie to you or are mistaken, although most of them are resolved pretty quickly.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:43 .

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

"Alliance's Morals."

What a nonsense.

Alliance principles

Does that Sound better

Fixers0 wrote...

the Fact that Kahoku had Problems in getting help from the Council sounded more as a reference that Humans are treated as Second-class citiziens by the Council then conspiracy.

Why would the Council help him? Missing Alliance marines in the Alliance space seems like an internal problem of the Alliance to me. Why would he even go to the Council before trying out all the Alliance options he could?

It is also said in the game that the Omega was built by the Protheans, and the Reapers are trapped in dark space, none of which is true to our metagaming knowledge. There are other examples when NPCs lie to you or are mistaken, although most of them are resolved pretty quickly.

That's not something that i have come up, Fact is that ingame Kahoku is standing near a terminal trying to get help from the Council to search for a squad of marines that have gone missing while patroling.

Omega has nothing to do with it and to my knowledge, until we recieve more information about me3 the Reapers could still be stuck in Dark psace

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:56 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Jagri wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

Okay just for the record everyone has to remember that the pro-cerberus people have a tendency to view any factual information about Cerberus that they don't like as myth and never happenned since it hurts there arguement (Just go check the other thread for proof)

I was just playing ME1 again and at the Cerberus centre that was handling the crazed Rachni they even said they were hiding from the Alliance and only had to worry about pirates.  Then later the one officer admitted they shouldn't have treated them like animals and the crazed Rachni got loose and ended up killing a number of Alliance detachments.

I dismiss that ever happening in Mass Effect 1. It is your typical poor story writing and need to add to the over all length of a game with what is typically known as "side quests". In my playthrough I avoided such "side quests" so it never happened and I can dismiss it from the topic and debate at hand.

Would that be a typical example Wolfsite?

At this point trying to seperate the System Alliance from Cerberus would be a challange even it was only a few key System Alliance personal who was involed with Cerberus.

I only dismiss the DLC "Overlord" because it's a piece of $h!t. I don't dismiss the existence of Project Overlord in ME universe. The only thing you have to do to have that project run smoothly - is not owning th damn DLC. Especially as it is mentioned in the "Shadow Broker" DLC. So yeah... Cerberus researching the means of electronic warfare against the Geth... on behalf of the Alliance.


@ wolfsite:

How is it it surprising that the Rachni that escaped form an Alliance/Cerberus research facility attack Alliance/Marines outposts? Especially after the Alliance knowingly committed its Marines to Cerberus experiments?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:15 .

[DTKT]

The space wizard did it.



But I do believe you people are looking into it too much.

[wolfsite]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jagri wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

Okay just for the record everyone has to remember that the pro-cerberus people have a tendency to view any factual information about Cerberus that they don't like as myth and never happenned since it hurts there arguement (Just go check the other thread for proof)

I was just playing ME1 again and at the Cerberus centre that was handling the crazed Rachni they even said they were hiding from the Alliance and only had to worry about pirates.  Then later the one officer admitted they shouldn't have treated them like animals and the crazed Rachni got loose and ended up killing a number of Alliance detachments.

I dismiss that ever happening in Mass Effect 1. It is your typical poor story writing and need to add to the over all length of a game with what is typically known as "side quests". In my playthrough I avoided such "side quests" so it never happened and I can dismiss it from the topic and debate at hand.

Would that be a typical example Wolfsite?

At this point trying to seperate the System Alliance from Cerberus would be a challange even it was only a few key System Alliance personal who was involed with Cerberus.

I only dismiss the DLC "Overlord" because it's a piece of $h!t. I don't dismiss the existence of Project Overlord in ME universe. The only thing you have to do to have that project run smoothly - is not owning th damn DLC. Especially as it is mentioned in the "Shadow Broker" DLC. So yeah... Cerberus researching the means of electronic warfare against the Geth... on behalf of the Alliance.


@ wolfsite:

How is it it surprising that the Rachni that escaped form an Alliance/Cerberus research facility attack Alliance/Marines outposts? Especially after the Alliance knowingly committed its Marines to Cerberus experiments?

Wow, just wow, I have seen some Cerberus Cheerleaders but you really take the cake.

The evidence is there the problem is you keep "Dismissing" since it doesn't go well with your arguement.  Frankly it doesn't surprise me that cerberus messed up with the rachni, after all Wrex said it best when refering to the mess "At least humans are consistently stupid".

Again it just comes down to people saying things that did happen didn't since it shows that there revisionist heistory is wrong.

[El Mito]

Ah, Zulu with his theories. Not always logical, always interesting. Will he be crowned as the winner when ME 3 releases, or will he be damned? Find out in 11 months!

[Vaenier]

wolfsite wrote...

Wow, just wow, I have seen some Cerberus Cheerleaders but you really take the cake.

The evidence is there the problem is you keep "Dismissing" since it doesn't go well with your arguement.  Frankly it doesn't surprise me that cerberus messed up with the rachni, after all Wrex said it best when refering to the mess "At least humans are consistently stupid".

Again it just comes down to people saying things that did happen didn't since it shows that there revisionist heistory is wrong.

Why are you dismissing the fact that his Shepard never did Overlord? It does not exist, he never went there, the program is just chugging along fine for him. Do you forget that this game is about divergant timelines created by your choices? Stop being so ignorant and trying to force your timeline on other people...

[lovgreno]

DTKT wrote...

The space wizard did it.

But I do believe you people are looking into it too much.

You got a point there.
ME1 Cerberus = Bad guys.
ME2 Cerberus = Necesary bad guys.
ME3 Cerberus = ?

That's basicaly all there is and we can speculate about the rest all we want.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

"Alliance's Morals."

What a nonsense.

Alliance principles

Does that Sound better

Yes, "Alliance's principles" sounds better. But they don't seem to be what you think they are.

wolfsite wrote...

Wow, just wow, I have seen some Cerberus Cheerleaders but you really take the cake.

Yum yum yum. The cake is delicious and you ain't getting any of it!

wolfsite wrote...

The evidence is there the problem is you keep "Dismissing" since it doesn't go well with your arguement.

The problem is the "Overlord" DLC is crap and that's why I dismiss it. It has nothing to do with Cerberus.

wolfsite wrote...

Frankly it doesn't surprise me that cerberus messed up with the rachni, after all Wrex said it best when refering to the mess "At least humans are consistently stupid".

Said a lizard who gave me its paycheck for killing Fist, after I let Fist go. And proudly told you how it had once been tearing a an empty space station apart for hours after the adversary had been gone. Wrex was an expert in stupidity.

wolfsite wrote...

Again it just comes down to people saying things that did happen didn't since it shows that there revisionist heistory is wrong.

What exaclty does come down to it? When did I say that the Rachni experiments didn't happen?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:12 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

El Mito wrote...

Ah, Zulu with his theories. Not always logical, always interesting. Will he be crowned as the winner when ME 3 releases, or will he be damned? Find out in 11 months!

I concur. I guarantee at least one award for Zulu as more ME3 plot details are revealed.

[Fixers0]

double post.

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:29 .

[Fixers0]

Reading both this Article. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Systems_Alliance
And then this Article masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerberus
Makes me know enough.

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:29 .