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[Zulu_DFA]

This is not about proof anymore. This is about the Alliance:

Is it evil, or inept?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Here are some thoughts I had about Cerberus and why they have to be familiar with at least some of the SR-1's technology. I think Cerberus was a black ops organization gone rogue (like was stated by Admiral Kahoku), but that would not prevent them from getting all the juicy details of the SSV Normandy.

According to the lore Cerberus is using a company called Cord-Hislop Aerospace as a front to fund their activities. That company is a well-respected corporation for manufacturing and selling starships.

I remember a thread on the old forums in which we discussed the change of the Cerberus logo. Someone believed that the new logo was actually used by Cord-Hislop Aerospace before the change. I was not sure about this, though. I was unable to find proof of that, although it was obvious that there was a Cerberus logo change. Later I thought that might explain a video in which someone with a Cerberus logo on his uniform talks to Anderson. You can watch that on video at the Shadow Broker's base. That might be a (connection to) his son (Jason), who apparently became an aerospace engineer. You can read about that in a dossier which contains a letter sent to Anderson by his wife Cynthia Barris. The letter was send from Atlanta, Earth, and Cord-Hislop Aerospace happens to have their headquarters on Earth. Jason might be working for them. The guy in the uniform can be either Anderson's son or someone working for Cord-Hislop Aerospace with information about his son.

The Cerberus logo change makes sense because nobody is really upset by individuals wearing uniforms with that logo in public. The logo is a cover for TIM's organization and they have just adapted the Cord-Hislop Aerospace logo after Cerberus went rogue. Just look at the ingame ME1 Cerberus logo. They don't even look remotely the same.

If Cord-Hislop Aerospace is a respected company then they may have been the builders of the SR-1. The Turian collaboration on that project does not contradict that. The lore mentioned "co-development" and not that the Turians actually built it. Even if they did Cord-Hislop Aerospace might have been closely involved in its development. That may also explain why Cerberus was able to use much of the same technology of the SR-1. Cerberus didn't have to go after it. They already had it. Because of its role for Cerberus the same company is most likely to be the builder of the SR-2.

Edited this post several times in the hope to make it more clear.

Edit: I confused Hackett with Kahoku and corrected that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[4yan3ric]

Of course now that Cerberus got it's ass handed to them in Retribution the secrets out.

[ubermensch007]

A very fascinating topic of discussion... Zulu DFA: Your theory adds a level of political intrigue worthy of the Mass Effect Universe! In a way you make Cerebus come across as the inverse of SD-6 (from Alias) They pretended to be a branch of the C.I.A. In your essay, Cerebus is pretending to not be a part of the Systems Alliance.My God! I almost want what you are saying to be true, just to see how Operations Cheif: Ashley Williams, would react if she found out that the Alliance was in bed with the organization that she loathes.Saying that she would feel betrayed and disenchanted, may not do it justice.Poor thing...After all, her father and grandfather put up with in the Alliance, your theory if correct, would add insult to injury, in her case.

What you say does seem highly probable, but i still like the idea of a Grass Roots Organization like Cerebus, making their own way among the inter galactic community apart from human government aid premission or sponsorship.Because it is only inevitable: At some point, the colonies (some, not all) may seek to declare their independence from whomever sponsors them.After all, that's what happened in the 'New World' (America).For some time now i have thought that history will repeat itself, whenever we finally get around to colonizing the planet Mars...

[Zulu_DFA]

ubermensch007 wrote...

A very fascinating topic of discussion... Zulu DFA: Your theory adds a level of political intrigue worthy of the Mass Effect Universe! In a way you make Cerebus come across as the inverse of SD-6 (from Alias) They pretended to be a branch of the C.I.A. In your essay, Cerebus is pretending to not be a part of the Systems Alliance.My God! I almost want what you are saying to be true, just to see how Operations Cheif: Ashley Williams, would react if she found out that the Alliance was in bed with the organization that she loathes.Saying that she would feel betrayed and disenchanted, may not do it justice.Poor thing...After all, her father and grandfather put up with in the Alliance, your theory if correct, would add insult to injury, in her case.

Lol, you haven't read the latest comic, have you? I mean, you'd know that Ashley's Grandpa... ...

Um, let's say she'd be shocked about him too.

ubermensch007 wrote...

What you say does seem highly probable, but i still like the idea of a Grass Roots Organization like Cerebus, making their own way among the inter galactic community apart from human government aid premission or sponsorship.Because it is only inevitable: At some point, the colonies (some, not all) may seek to declare their independence from whomever sponsors them.After all, that's what happened in the 'New World' (America).For some time now i have thought that history will repeat itself, whenever we finally get around to colonizing the planet Mars...

But that kinda already happened, when the Systems Alliance formed its own government at the Acturus Station. So, I guess, TIM's "vision" and "cause" of finding a proper place for the Mankind among the stars does not necessarilly involve independence from the Alliance, as opposed to shaping this still new and pliable quasi-nation to suit that goal best.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 12:43 .

[Volus Warlord]

Hm.. you speak of Cerberus as if it were an Alliance back-door operation...

Thing is... don't they have enough "back-door" options? Spectres, etc.?

Unless divided loyalties within the Council led to the creation of several such operations.

[Rekkampum]

Lord_Metal666 wrote...

Actually it does sound very plausable.<br />
<br />
How else would they get the plans to the Normandy, and Anderson did find out you were alive far to quickly for my liking.<br />
<br />
It has already been stated in the game that Cerberus is funded by certain high placed civilian pers, and high ranking Alliance military personal. I'm thinking Cerberus is to the Systems Alliance, what the CIA is to the US government. <br />
<br />

The CIA analogy doesn't work. The CIA is not considered "rogue" to the US. Cerberus, according to what Admiral Kahoku told us before he was assassinated, is rogue to the Alliance. 

This is an interesting theory, although improbable.

[Pwener2313]

The alliance has never said that Cerberus is a rogue organization. Kahoku didn't even know they existed until Shepard told him of the inccident and he started snooping around.

[nevar00]

I'm pretty sure he knew about them when you mention them to him.

Also another example of my previous theory would be that if you do the Kahoku mission before Toombs, Toombs explains that he escapes because somebody "destroyed Cerberus".

[Foehunter82]

Actually, my impression is that Cerberus more or less represents MIC type interests. The Alliance if for the people (in theory). Where's the proof that the Alliance if for corporate interests? Just because they don't interfere in some of the stupidity that goes on as the result of corporations doesn't mean they exist to protect corporations. Did Cerberus start as part of the Alliance? I have no doubt. Is it still part of the Alliance? Maybe, maybe not. As we have seen in ME and ME 2, there are elements of Cerberus that periodically go rogue. To better illustrate this example, look at Terra Firma, a political movement (party?) founded on the principle of defending human rights. Since its inception, the movement has drawn in pro-human, but perhaps tolerant, humans, but has also drawn in extremist ant-alien humans. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that some Terra Firma members are gearing up for terrorist actions against alien races. Likewise, Cerberus may have been founded as an Alliance black ops/intelligence gathering service with the primary goal of preserving human interests, but it doesn't mean it doesn't draw in the worst kind of humans. This could conceivably lead to Cerberus elements going rogue and acting unilaterally without any orders from TIM. Did Kahoku believe Cerberus went rogue? Yes. Did they? Yes and no. The primary faction under TIM probably has ties to the Alliance still. The cell that was responsible for Kahoku's death may have actually gone rogue, though. Further evidence of Cerberus cells going rogue include the cell that experimented on Jack. Miranda even explains as much. Is Cerberus actually pro-human? That remains to be seen. I happen to believe that they're pro-human to a point. Sure, they're all for helping humans and protecting them, but to what length will they go for it? What is the real reason TIM wanted the Collector Base? It is possible that he had the best intentions there. Understand that while he may be pulling the strings with Cerberus, his are being pulled by his backers. He may want to help humanity, but his backers may decide that it would be best to sacrifice millions to the Collector Base to make human Reapers to fight back against the Reapers. On the other hand, TIM, too, may decide that such a sacrifice is a good idea.

Assuming that some of the research projects being explored by Cerberus in ME we in fact sanctioned by Cerberus and weren't just started by a rogue element, that would mean that Cerberus was exploring everything from the effects of Thresher Maw acid to Rachni behavior to mind control (Thorian Creepers). The idea of having a secretive organization like Cerberus having access to mind control technology doesn't strike me as a good idea. Consider TIM's backers, if you're feeling absolutely loyal to TIM. Why would you deliver such technology to a corporation? What good could possibly come from that? The same thing goes for anything else Cerberus gets involved with.

During my Paragon playthroughs, these are things I considered when making my Cerberus-related decisions. A member of Cerberus may be good and honorable. But the organization itself seems to be run by people who may not care about the good of the human race, much less the galaxy's. Even TIM, who may also turn out to be honorable, may just be a puppet, all the while falsely believing that he's actually in control.

[Pwener2313]

That's something I never understood. Cerberus isn't destroyed, they're super advanced technologically and made a Normandy. How was it destroyed then? Was it a single cell?

[MajorStranger]

Cerberus was never part of the System Alliance special operation. They are a privately funded human supremacist group that believe the System Alliance is not able to protect the interest of Humanity. Their whole purpose is based on the fact people view the alliance as too weak to represent the human race. Therefore Zulu would you mind stop with you idiotic Nostadamus Theories?

[Pwener2313]

MajorStranger wrote...

Cerberus was never part of the System Alliance special operation. They are a privately funded human supremacist group that believe the System Alliance is not able to protect the interest of Humanity. Their whole purpose is based on the fact people view the alliance as too weak to represent the human race. Therefore Zulu would you mind stop with you idiotic Nostadamus Theories?

Why are you insulting the guy? man, I hate people in these forums who blindly hate Cerberus and anyone who sides of defends them. If it wasn't form them, Humanity would be in the brink of extincyion with who knows what else. We owe Cerberus everything, so YOU shut up and or stick to the discussion. What a jerk.....

Modifié par Pwener2313, 06 mars 2011 - 03:36 .

[MajorStranger]

I sticked to the discussion: But the Fact is that Cerberus was not some kind of Commissioned black ops divsion created by the Alliance. They were created by rich bored guys who didn't feel the Alliance was strong enough to keep their investment protected from other species. Yes Cerberus was able to act when the Alliance couldn't. That's exactly why Cerberus was created, to protect humanity's investment and prove that the alliance is weak.

[nevar00]

Pwener2313 wrote...

That's something I never understood. Cerberus isn't destroyed, they're super advanced technologically and made a Normandy. How was it destroyed then? Was it a single cell?

Like I said earlier:

My guess is this: during ME 1 they used Cerberus as a minor side-mission evil group that was in fact a rougue Human black ops group or whatever.  Then the writers saw the potential in the group and decided to reuse the name for ME 2; also this would have been a nice way to have shown the group in ME 1, albeit briefly so the haracter can have some history with them. Notice how there is no mention of Toombs or your Akuze squad for the sole survivor to Miranda or TIM or anybody: my guess is that they hadn't intended for Cerberus to be the group from ME 2 so they decided to ignore that side plot.

Maybe Cerberus will end up being with the Alliance.  However I don't think that was the plan from the beginning: more than likely I see it as Cerberus having been a random side villian for the first game that was originally destroyed in the Kohoku mission.  Which would also make sense as they pretty much gloss over all of the Cerberus side missions in the first game, and you never even mention Toombs or Kohoku.

Modifié par nevar00, 06 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Pwener2313]

@nevar00: The ME story was done since before ME1 was even out. Cerberus was planned to become a major player since the start.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Cerberus was just a Chekhov's Gun in ME1.

[nevar00]

Pwener2313 wrote...

@nevar00: The ME story was done since before ME1 was even out. Cerberus was planned to become a major player since the start.

I realize that but I'm not sure they were originally supposed to be the 'pro-human extremist group' for the 2nd game... they just seem like two completely different organizations from what we find out in ME 1 and they completely ignore things we learned about them in the first game.

[Pwener2313]

MajorStranger wrote...

I sticked to the discussion: But the Fact is that Cerberus was not some kind of Commissioned black ops divsion created by the Alliance. They were created by rich bored guys who didn't feel the Alliance was strong enough to keep their investment protected from other species.

Are you for real? You're the one making idiotic theories. please, make yourself a favor and leave, your unresonable and lack of proof theories are very bad. The funny thing is that you say it like it's common knowledge. Your a sad little person, I can tell. You hate Cerberus, I get it, and now leave and stop mucking up the thread.

[Pwener2313]

nevar00 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

@nevar00: The ME story was done since before ME1 was even out. Cerberus was planned to become a major player since the start.

I realize that but I'm not sure they were originally supposed to be the 'pro-human extremist group' for the 2nd game... they just seem like two completely different organizations from what we find out in ME 1 and they completely ignore things we learned about them in the first game.

Ignore? Miranda discusses Shepard's exploits against Cerberus from ME1 and Tali too. that cell we fought in ME1 was researching ways to make disposable shock troops to fight the Geth and protect human colonies. are you sure you imported from ME1?

[Foehunter82]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

Look at it this way:  Cerberus is rogue.  Cerberus is supported by MIC interests.  Cerberus has either backers or infiltrators at all levels of the Alliance.  That's right.  Alliance has generals and admirals in it's ranks that are working with Cerberus.  So, of course Kahoku's request for aid or information with regards to his men could easily get intercepted and go unanswered.  This doesn't mean that the Alliance is "corporate security" or "defends corporate interests".  In fact, it implies that Cerberus is every bit as screwed up and rogue as people believe it is.  It's being backed by defense contractors, and probably some high ranking military types that want to take the fight to any and all alien races.  Blindly defending Cerberus is actually kind of pointless.  If you want to side with them, fine.  That's your business.  It just seems that the pro-Cerberus camp is going out of it's way to explain why "in the bigger picture" selling your soul is a good thing.

[Pwener2313]

I sold my soul to Cerberus and all I got was a stupid sig.

[Ty2011]

It's a conspiracy! But seriously, how does Admiral Hackett going rogue = the Alliance going rogue? He obviously has a strong liking towards Shepard and disobeyed orders to protect his memory and what was left of the Normandy. I believe there's an email on the Shadow Broker ship where Hackett also refused to place Shepard under arrest. He's willing to refuse orders just to protect Shepard, because he knows he's a hero.

Hackett obviously has his own way of doing things. So, if he fed Cerberus information then he did it on his own agenda. The Cerberus/TIM story is quite well known and there's nothing to indicate they are a super secret part of the Alliance.