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[applehug]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because I said, the structure of the Alliance is modular. Divisions may operate autonomously from each other and reciev instructions directly from the real policymakers. The general policy lines are vague. "Information strictly on the need-to-know basis".

Kahoku may have been a prominent marine, but he wasn't even aware of Cerberus before he found himself deep in black ops sh*t. He took a guess that Cerberus had gone rogue and told you so. But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

Oh, and BTW, in the "Elevator News" Kahoku's death was reported as "of natural causes".

I doubt the Alliance would sit idly by as one of it's marines was investigating it's black ops orginizations. If that was true why wouldn't they make any attempt to stop it? They have the power to assign to any place in the galaxy at any time at any moments notice.

And the elevator news story was just a way to make sure the public didn't know that a terroist group was creating super-soilders and had the capabilities to kidnap Alliance Marines.

But the fact is: they did sit idly. They did nothing about a missing unit. Kahoku went to the Council, but they dindn't help him. Then Kahoku asked a free-lancing spectre to help him. Why? I'll tell you. Because the "right" people knew all along. And Kahoku pried where he shouldn't.

But that doesn't prove or disprove that Cerberus is working for the Alliance. That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

[Lord_Metal666]

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

Because I said, the structure of the Alliance is modular. Divisions may operate autonomously from each other and reciev instructions directly from the real policymakers. The general policy lines are vague. "Information strictly on the need-to-know basis".

Kahoku may have been a prominent marine, but he wasn't even aware of Cerberus before he found himself deep in black ops sh*t. He took a guess that Cerberus had gone rogue and told you so. But it was just his opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

Oh, and BTW, in the "Elevator News" Kahoku's death was reported as "of natural causes".

I doubt the Alliance would sit idly by as one of it's marines was investigating it's black ops orginizations. If that was true why wouldn't they make any attempt to stop it? They have the power to assign to any place in the galaxy at any time at any moments notice.

And the elevator news story was just a way to make sure the public didn't know that a terroist group was creating super-soilders and had the capabilities to kidnap Alliance Marines.

But the fact is: they did sit idly. They did nothing about a missing unit. Kahoku went to the Council, but they dindn't help him. Then Kahoku asked a free-lancing spectre to help him. Why? I'll tell you. Because the "right" people knew all along. And Kahoku pried where he shouldn't.

But that doesn't prove or disprove that Cerberus is working for the Alliance. That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

Or Complicit, remember the Alliance military follows Sun Tzu's maxim.

[superimposed]

No it doesn't.



Have you ever read "The Art of War"? It specifically says that unless you're on the battlefield, **** off.

[Zulu_DFA]

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 07:38 .

[applehug]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

The USMC general wouldn't let that platoon of Marines just die. He would have at least attempted to call them back.

[Zulu_DFA]

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

The USMC general wouldn't let that platoon of Marines just die. He would have at least attempted to call them back.

So, it was Kahoku who dropped the ball. It was his unit. Is that right?

He ran the mission, but at some point that unit ceased to transmit. He contacted his superiors but they shrugged their shoulders. Like mallissin puts it, "plausible deniability" kicked in.

And mark it., the comparison to USMC has its limits. Alliance Marines aren't a national military. They operate more like corporate security.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 07:49 .

[JMA22TB]

The inherent problem with Cerberus still being part of the structure of the Alliance is that they're a political liability to them.

If Cerberus was the ugly underhanded side of the Alliance they use but disavow association with, like the Corsairs Jacob mentioned but nastier, then they would make damn sure their operations stay quiet, just like Thane revealing to Shepard's surprise that the Hanar train assassins.

STG does some nasty things (genophage anyone?), but they are respected because they work the system right and with their species' government. Would the Krogan wipe out everything in it's way if they were cured? The evidence says yes. After ME2, though, you see the decision's very ugly side so it's not totally clear. It sure is on a political scale, though. That's what seperates STG from Cerberus.

Cerberus, even though Miranda says they have a political division, does not stand to profit humanity on a galactic scale and is, therefore, a problem for the authority of the Alliance who tries to negotiate their legitimacy as a member of galactic society.

They're self-defeating on that end, and if they continue to gain power they will probably give the turians, who appear to be the most densely populated military force in the galaxy (and by a wide margain), more than enough reason to wage war against humanity.

They're a political pestilence, which is why I believe they are indeed rogue.

[applehug]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

The USMC general wouldn't let that platoon of Marines just die. He would have at least attempted to call them back.

So, it was Kahoku who dropped the ball. It was his unit. Is that right?

He ran the mission, but at some point that unit ceased to transmit. He contacted his superiors but they shrugged their shoulders. Like

Like they had no idea what was going on. They were ignorant about Cerberus' involvment just as he was.

[Zulu_DFA]

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

The USMC general wouldn't let that platoon of Marines just die. He would have at least attempted to call them back.

So, it was Kahoku who dropped the ball. It was his unit. Is that right?

He ran the mission, but at some point that unit ceased to transmit. He contacted his superiors but they shrugged their shoulders. Like

Like they had no idea what was going on. They were ignorant about Cerberus' involvment just as he was.

Right. Because "info strictly on the need-to-know basis". Kahoku didn't need to know.

And neither does the Mass Effect fan need too know all the truth before the end of ME3.

[applehug]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

applehug wrote...

That just proves the Alliance high comand is extremely inefficent.

This is BS. USMC generals would never abandon a platoon of marines, just because they are lasy. They would abandon a platoon of marines, if some civil suit approached them and told that a search&rescue mission may not be in the best interests of the USMC. Even then, it's possible that some general would investigate the matter privately (like Kahoku did). It's probable that in this case such general would have a heart attack all of a sudden.

The USMC general wouldn't let that platoon of Marines just die. He would have at least attempted to call them back.

So, it was Kahoku who dropped the ball. It was his unit. Is that right?

He ran the mission, but at some point that unit ceased to transmit. He contacted his superiors but they shrugged their shoulders. Like

Like they had no idea what was going on. They were ignorant about Cerberus' involvment just as he was.

Right. Because "info strictly on the need-to-know basis". Kahoku didn't need to know.

And neither does the Mass Effect fan need too know all the truth before the end of ME3.

In order for that quote to be true we would have to be sure there was any info at all.

I'm not denying Cerberus being Alliance black ops is impossible, I'm just saying it's highly unlikely.

[KalosCast]

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

[WrexShepard]

Cerberus is the "Dark Knight" of the alliance.



They're hunted by the alliance to put on a show, but they can take it. This allows the alliance to deny connection to cerberus so cerberus can perform all kinds of ethically questionable operations that end up being for the good of humanity as a whole.



They have alliance backers, so it seems to me that no matter how much the alliance publicly denies involvement with cerberus, they can't escape it.

[Zulu_DFA]

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

[Jalem001]

Mallissin wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...
Anderson was directly refering to evidence of the Reapers being...well Reapers.  There was valuable technology discovered from Sovreigns wreckage.  Garrus's weapon upgarde, for example, is the result of Sovreign's technology being reverse engineered.

That's the Turians. He makes no mention of the Alliance finding anything worthwhile.

The language is that its a team of Turians and Humans that make the discovery I believe, and the Turians put it on their warships.  It makes no mention of it being secret, and if it was a secret why was Garrus privy to this information?

[KalosCast]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

[Zulu_DFA]

KalosCast wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

Read the topic again.

If 95% of your "taxes" come from 5-8 major corporations (businesses), and the entire population of your interstellar "country" are those cororations' employees or free-lance subcontractors, then it is those 5-8 corporations (read: 50-80 top corporate executives) that regulate your government. So much for "responsibility". If you don't believe me on that, go ask that techie-guy on Horizon. He has a lot more to say about the Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 08:30 .

[KalosCast]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

Read the topic again.

If your 95% of taxes come from 5-8 major corporations (businesses), and the entire population of your interstellar "country" are those cororations' employees or free-lance subcontractors, then it is those 5-8 corporations (read: 50-80 top corporate executives) that regulate your government. So much for "responsibility". If you don't believe me on that, go ask that techie-guy on Horizon. He has a lot to say about the Alliance.

He's also pretty much a textbook example of a slack-jawed "da guvment's tryin' ter keel us" tinfoil hat enthusiast. Also, the Systems Alliance uses an election-based system. Also also, these corporations have to play by government regulation in order to do business within the government's sphere of influence. Losing the business provided by an entire race to a competitor more willing to play ball is going to sweep up all that vacant space in a heartbeat.

[Mallissin]

Jalem001 wrote...
The language is that its a team of Turians and Humans that make the discovery I believe, and the Turians put it on their warships.  It makes no mention of it being secret, and if it was a secret why was Garrus privy to this information?

No, Codex says nothing about joint research between Humans and Turians:

"Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.

Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate."

http://masseffect.wi...ps_and_Vehicles

Some of the humans were probably Cerberus, hence a lead into EDI later.

Modifié par Mallissin, 07 mars 2010 - 08:37 .

[Zulu_DFA]

KalosCast wrote...
He's also pretty much a textbook example of a slack-jawed "da guvment's tryin' ter keel us" tinfoil hat enthusiast. Also, the Systems Alliance uses an election-based system. Also also, these corporations have to play by government regulation in order to do business within the government's sphere of influence. Losing the business provided by an entire race to a competitor more willing to play ball is going to sweep up all that vacant space in a heartbeat.

Look. The United States government was created "by the people, of the people and for the people". What you are saying about government-businesses relations perfectly fits into that. In theory. Actually there are a lot of people who think that those principles have been long since compromised and in practice the democracy functions not by taking the public opinion into account, but by forming the public opinion. But that's not relevant to this topic.

What I am saying is that the Systems Alliance was formed "by the corporations, of the corporations, and for the corporations". That's it. There is no "people". The colonists are all corporate employees/contractors and are treated as business assets. Maybe in bigger/older colonies there is some established legal system, sanctioned by Alliance Parliament or local legislatures, but most probably it's derivative of corporate regulations. We don't know if there is universal franchise in the Alliance or what the Parliament actually can do. As I said, the formal political institutions in the Alliance may be just for show. While the real action resides with the "agencies" and "divisions", that are led by people like TIM - the people of the corporate flesh and blood.

Remember Feros? They had no townhall or anything. They had ExoGeni "Bulding" and ExoGeni hired cop-for-hire, and ExoGeni bank-rolling the entire colony with the colonists working for ExoGeni, and ExoGeni staff acting like public officials. Such a system may be in place in the larger colonies as well. In fact, it's the dream of western classic economists: zero government.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2010 - 09:09 .

[mortons4ck]

Cerberus doesn't receive direct funding from the Alliance the way the CIA does.



It seems more like a Halliburton/Illuminati hybrid than an Alliance organization. Though the game does elude to the fact that TIM worked for/in Alliance Intel.

[ObserverStatus]

mortons4ck wrote...

Cerberus doesn't receive direct funding from the Alliance the way the CIA does.

It seems more like a Halliburton/Illuminati hybrid than an Alliance organization. Though the game does elude to the fact that TIM worked for/in Alliance Intel.

In that case, I wonder if in ME3 Miranda is going to get injured by TIM in a hunting accident.

[BigBody26]

I was playing through ME1 again and at one point Admiral Kahoku contacts me.  He explains that he found out who set his men up, the ones killed by the thresher maw.  He goes onto say that

"It was a group called Cerberus, an Alliance Black Ops organization..."

I had heard that transmission during other playthroughs but never gave it much thought.  Hearing it this time made me stop a bit.  It would appear the OP is correct...Cerberus is most likely a part of the alliance. 

[applehug]

BigBody26 wrote...

I was playing through ME1 again and at one point Admiral Kahoku contacts me.  He explains that he found out who set his men up, the ones killed by the thresher maw.  He goes onto say that

"[/i]It was a group called Cerberus, [/b][b]an Alliance Black Ops organization..."[i]

I had heard that transmission during other playthroughs but never gave it much thought.  Hearing it this time made me stop a bit.  It would appear the OP is correct...Cerberus is most likely a part of the alliance. 

Doesn't he also explain they went rouge before than?

[Kristofer1]

so basically Cerberus = John Travolta in Swordfish?