798 réponses à ce sujet

[Foehunter82]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

Read the topic again.

If 95% of your "taxes" come from 5-8 major corporations (businesses), and the entire population of your interstellar "country" are those cororations' employees or free-lance subcontractors, then it is those 5-8 corporations (read: 50-80 top corporate executives) that regulate your government. So much for "responsibility". If you don't believe me on that, go ask that techie-guy on Horizon. He has a lot more to say about the Alliance.

Your argument is basically that the individual isn't a taxpayer and that the major corporations are.  Where does it say that 95% of the taxes come from the 5-8 major corporations?  Your entire implication is that the individual doesn't technically exist because any profits an individual makes are, in fact, directly from the corporations.  The question is, where do corporate profits come from?  When you get right down to it, monetary systems are illusions, and no item really has a monetary value.

[nevar00]

Pwener2313 wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

@nevar00: The ME story was done since before ME1 was even out. Cerberus was planned to become a major player since the start.

I realize that but I'm not sure they were originally supposed to be the 'pro-human extremist group' for the 2nd game... they just seem like two completely different organizations from what we find out in ME 1 and they completely ignore things we learned about them in the first game.

Ignore? Miranda discusses Shepard's exploits against Cerberus from ME1 and Tali too. that cell we fought in ME1 was researching ways to make disposable shock troops to fight the Geth and protect human colonies. are you sure you imported from ME1?

Miranda brushed off the more minor experiments you encounter in ME 1, but again they more or less ignore Kohoku and Toombs.  Also the reception of others to Cerberus more or less changed between both games: Mass Effect 2 has the reaction of others to Cerberus make them out as more of a terrorist group: in ME 1 they're a black ops group gone rougue, something that is never again mentioned in ME 2. 

[DxWill10]

I think cerberus may have started as a black ops type of thing. But I think the alliance either backed out or cerberus didnt think they were doing things renegade-ish enough. So they split, and maintain a shaky 'truce'

Modifié par DxWill10, 06 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Foehunter82 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

Read the topic again.

If 95% of your "taxes" come from 5-8 major corporations (businesses), and the entire population of your interstellar "country" are those cororations' employees or free-lance subcontractors, then it is those 5-8 corporations (read: 50-80 top corporate executives) that regulate your government. So much for "responsibility". If you don't believe me on that, go ask that techie-guy on Horizon. He has a lot more to say about the Alliance.

Your argument is basically that the individual isn't a taxpayer and that the major corporations are.  Where does it say that 95% of the taxes come from the 5-8 major corporations?  Your entire implication is that the individual doesn't technically exist because any profits an individual makes are, in fact, directly from the corporations.  The question is, where do corporate profits come from?  When you get right down to it, monetary systems are illusions, and no item really has a monetary value.

Well, we aren't told either way, so that leaves us with the liberty to do our own logical (or not so much) thinking.

So, inintially the Alliance had been a joint endowment by the major Earth's national governments and corporations, then it became independent of the Earth's national governments. That leaves the corporations in charge.

As to your assertion that no item has inherent monetary value, that may be. Only the labor also does not inherently belong to the laborer.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[MajorStranger]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Foehunter82 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Cerberus projects being privately funded means that even if they're part of the Alliance on paperwork, they're certainly only representing its best interests when its in their investors' best interests.

This goes to every Alliance division or agency. It just so happens that the projects Cerberus runs are the most controversial.

No, the Alliance is a government body, they are government funded (theoretically) only beholden to the taxpayers. The military can choose who they contract with (well, at least, the United States can't have the government contract itself to do its own work which is why we have so much corporate stuff). Cerberus on the other hand is completely funded by TIM, who in turn is backed by (according to Miranda) a series of private investors an corporations. Governments, on the other hand, tend to be heavily regulated and supported by taxpayers. And therefore have a responsibility to the people as a whole, not to whoever's bankrolling their new explosive breath mints.

Read the topic again.

If 95% of your "taxes" come from 5-8 major corporations (businesses), and the entire population of your interstellar "country" are those cororations' employees or free-lance subcontractors, then it is those 5-8 corporations (read: 50-80 top corporate executives) that regulate your government. So much for "responsibility". If you don't believe me on that, go ask that techie-guy on Horizon. He has a lot more to say about the Alliance.

Your argument is basically that the individual isn't a taxpayer and that the major corporations are.  Where does it say that 95% of the taxes come from the 5-8 major corporations?  Your entire implication is that the individual doesn't technically exist because any profits an individual makes are, in fact, directly from the corporations.  The question is, where do corporate profits come from?  When you get right down to it, monetary systems are illusions, and no item really has a monetary value.

Well, we aren't told either way, so that leaves us with the liberty to do our own logical (or not so much) thinking.

So, inintially the Alliance had been a joint endowment by the major Earth's national governments and corporations, then it became independent of the Earth's national governments. That leaves the corporations in charge.

As to your assertion that no item has inherent monetary value, that may be. Only the labor also does not inherently belong to the laborer.

"Within a year of the discovery, Earth's eighteen largest nations had
drafted and ratified the Systems Alliance charter, establishing a
representative political body to expand and defend human territory.
Shortly thereafter, the various nations of Earth pooled their military
resources to create the Systems Alliance Military."

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Systems_Alliance

I'm sorry but there's no corporative other than the plausible lobbying (which exist here right now) made by corporation on the Parliament. Here's real facts, where's yours? You keep saying you've got fact, but I don't see any sources. I've given you source, which come directly from the In-game Codex.

Do Cerberus have high-level diplomat inside the Alliance Government? Of Course they have! How could they stole the Normandy's bluprint and make a replica with more advance technology? Are they powerful? Hell yes! They could revive a human being with burned tissues with almost no relapse. They have an intel network so powerful they found the Shadow Broker! But are they part of the alliance? Certainly not. Their whole purpose is to show that the alliance is incapable of serving the human race.

Modifié par MajorStranger, 06 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

MajorStranger wrote...

Do Cerberus have high-level diplomat inside the Alliance Government? Of Course they have! How could they stole the Normandy's bluprint and make a replica with more advance technology?

Cerberus did not steal the technology. They already had it. Cord-Hislop Aerospace (a respected company connected to Cerberus) was most likely involved in the SR-1's development one way or another.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[MajorStranger]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Do Cerberus have high-level diplomat inside the Alliance Government? Of Course they have! How could they stole the Normandy's bluprint and make a replica with more advance technology?

Cerberus did not steal the technology. They already had it. Cord-Hislop Aerospace (a respected company owned by Cerberus) was most likely involved in the SR-1's development one way or another.

one way or another this kind of technology would have required to steal some part (like for some experimental stealth plane, the USAF only commissioned some part from certain company, they are build by experimental military team (forgot the acronym). In the normandy's case, there was both Human and Turian Tech. I no way would the Turian let human corporation gain knowledge of their tech while it was still experimental. Right now we must believe that some part of the vanilla Normandy SR-2 has been stolen, like some of the new tech has been (Thanix Cannon, which has been hacked and taken from the Turian military.)

[LuxDragon]

^ I'm not sure if that company is responsible for the Normandy, but EDI mentions it was Cerberus that manipulated the Alliance into working with the turians and create the SSV Normandy SR-1. It was then the plans were taken and used to create the Normandy SR-2.

[MajorStranger]

LuxDragon wrote...

^ I'm not sure if that company is responsible for the Normandy, but EDI mentions it was Cerberus that manipulated the Alliance into working with the turians and create the SSV Normandy SR-1. It was then the plans were taken and used to create the Normandy SR-2.

need source and proof.

edit: found it. ok. Then they really stole the turian tech. In the end my point was valid, they do have high ranking official inside the Alliance subtly making presure and helping Cerberus gain edge.

Modifié par MajorStranger, 06 mars 2011 - 08:07 .

[chrono21791]

Both the Alliance and Citadel specifically state that Cerberus is listed as a Terrorist grade threat.

Shepard says explicitly (while aboard the Flotilla) that he is no longer part of the Alliance.

Jacob tells Shepard that he left the Alliance and joined up with Cerberus because he likes how they do things better than the Alliance. If they were still part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have to leave them to join Cerberus.

The Shadow Broker's information on Cerberus is that they have gone rogue.

THE SHADOW BROKER IS NEVER WRONG.

Unless he was wrong about something, in which case sometimes he is wrong. But seriously, if the Shadow Broker has Cerberus listed as a rogue organization, then you can bet your ass they are.

[AngryFrozenWater]

MajorStranger wrote...

LuxDragon wrote...

^ I'm not sure if that company is responsible for the Normandy, but EDI mentions it was Cerberus that manipulated the Alliance into working with the turians and create the SSV Normandy SR-1. It was then the plans were taken and used to create the Normandy SR-2.

need source and proof.

edit: found it. ok. Then they really stole the turian tech. In the end my point was valid, they do have high ranking official inside the Alliance subtly making presure and helping Cerberus gain edge.

You can ask as much proof as you want, but in this game you are likely to get nothing more than clues. The OP has provided no proof at all for his theory that companies run the Alliance. The same goes for your idea that Cerberus had to steal technology. There is no evidence of that either. There are only in-game clues which lead me to believe that Cerberus does not need to steal the technology. I rather take my chances with the clues than theories based on nothing at all.

Edit: Didn't see your edit.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

I'm sorry but there's no corporative other than the plausible lobbying (which exist here right now) made by corporation on the Parliament. Here's real facts, where's yours? You keep saying you've got fact, but I don't see any sources. I've given you source, which come directly from the In-game Codex.

All right, there were no corporate interests involved whatsoever. Then the post-FCW Alliance is basically a military junta (of those "pooled" troops, right?). That's even greater.

Only who builds those spacecraft for them to fly, makes those weapons for them to fire, and handles all the colonization activity for them to expand? Individual entrepreneurs? Family businesses? Cooperative associations?

Sorry, but Space Halliburtons and Space Wal-Marts are running the show. So yeah, lobbying they do, and the Alliance does a lot of outsourcing. And the little guy can either comply, or go to Horizon, only to be abducted by the Collectors on the cue by TIM, who is supposed to hate the Alliance too.

MajorStranger wrote...

Do Cerberus have high-level diplomat inside the Alliance Government? Of Course they have!

Of course?

MajorStranger wrote...

How could they stole the Normandy's bluprint and make a replica with more advance technology?

Why would they need to steal anything, if the Alliance would just give it to them, so that they (Cord-Hislop, Inc.) could build it?

MajorStranger wrote...

Are they powerful? Hell yes! They could revive a human being with burned tissues with almost no relapse. They have an intel network so powerful they found the Shadow Broker!

And the source of that power is the Alliance MIC. Good thing the Alliance MIC is not actually part of the Alliance, but private/corporate property, that has nothing to do with the Alliance... Only why is it called the Alliance MIC?

MajorStranger wrote...

But are they part of the alliance? Certainly not. Their whole purpose is to show that the alliance is incapable of serving the human race.

Really? So far they have been showing that only to themselves. Such narcissists!

[Zulu_DFA]

chrono21791 wrote...

Both the Alliance and Citadel specifically state that Cerberus is listed as a Terrorist grade threat.

Listed as terrorists and covered up their "terrosist" activities (like killing an admiral).

chrono21791 wrote...

Shepard says explicitly (while aboard the Flotilla) that he is no longer part of the Alliance.

Major Antella would disagree.

chrono21791 wrote...

Jacob tells Shepard that he left the Alliance and joined up with Cerberus because he likes how they do things better than the Alliance. If they were still part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have to leave them to join Cerberus.

Technically, he would. To maintain the deniability. He doesn't really need to know that Cerberus works for the Alliance.

chrono21791 wrote...

The Shadow Broker's information on Cerberus is that they have gone rogue.

The Shadow Broker had no inforamtion that Cerberus had been ever involved with the Alliance in the first place.

chrono21791 wrote...

THE SHADOW BROKER IS NEVER WRONG.

Unless he was wrong about something, in which case sometimes he is wrong. But seriously, if the Shadow Broker has Cerberus listed as a rogue organization, then you can bet your ass they are.

Yes, he could be wrong. Proof: he is dead.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[chrono21791]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Both the Alliance and Citadel specifically state that Cerberus is listed as a Terrorist grade threat.[/quote]Listed as terrorists and covered up their "terrosist" activities (like killing an admiral).[/quote]

This is speculation. Admiral Kohaku was found, dead, in a Cerberus Facility. All this shows is that Cerberus killed him, and it does not in any way link the Alliance to Cerberus. In fact, this is evidence AGAINST Cerberus being part of the Alliance anymore, seeing as how they killed an Admiral. A ****ING ADMIRAL. I highly doubt the Alliance would just let them do that.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Shepard says explicitly (while aboard the Flotilla) that he is no longer part of the Alliance.[/quote]Major Antella would disagree.[/quote]

Don't know what you are talking about because I havn't finished the game (just got it a couple days ago). So don't ruin whatever that is for me


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Jacob tells Shepard that he left the Alliance and joined up with Cerberus because he likes how they do things better than the Alliance. If they were still part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have to leave them to join Cerberus.[/quote]Technically, he would. To maintain the deniability. He doesn't really need to know that Cerberus works for the Alliance.[/quote]

Again, this is just speculation. The only evidence here is that the Cerberus is not with the Alliance.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

The Shadow Broker's information on Cerberus is that they have gone rogue.[/quote]The Shadow Broker had no inforamtion that Cerberus had been ever involved with the Alliance in the first place. [/quote]

You have to be involved with a government to go rogue. So yes, they WERE involved with the Alliance. Then they went rogue.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

THE SHADOW BROKER IS NEVER WRONG.

Unless he was wrong about something, in which case sometimes he is wrong. But seriously, if the Shadow Broker has Cerberus listed as a rogue organization, then you can bet your ass they are.[/quote]Yes, he could be wrong. Proof: he is dead.[/quote]

So being mortal is proof that he was wrong about it? That makes no sense. He COULD be wrong, but it is extremely unlikely. The Shadow Broker was not careless, and he would not archive something like that unless he was sure about it. (If he was unsure, it would say something like "Possible rogue agency" instead of just saying definitively that it went rogue.)

One more thing. In ME1, you can basically destroy a bunch of Cerberus bases. If you do, you can get a bunch of intel on them. You can either give it to Alliance Command (which they would thank you for, further evidence they are not working with Cerberus anymore) or the Shadow Broker. My guess is THIS is where he got the information they went rogue, from Cerberus' own files. In addition, there is a mission (I think it's Jack's loyalty mission, but I forget which for sure) where you can get more Cerberus files. You can either keep them, give them to Cerberus, or give them to Alliance Command, at which point they will thank you and say something like "this is a major victory for us agains't Cerberus" or something of the like. Say that they would have to to maintain deniability all you want, but again, that is all speculation, and as the evidence stands it just further shows that Cerberus is a rogue agency, and not working for the Alliance.

Also consider that Cerberus is funded by many donators, investors, and interest groups. Not the Alliance.

[chrono21791]

sorry, for some reason i couldn't manage to get the quote thing around all of your responses. I'm kinda new at this

[darknoon5]

This is one of the few of these ridiculous conspiracies that could actually be true.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Both the Alliance and Citadel specifically state that Cerberus is listed as a Terrorist grade threat.[/quote]Listed as terrorists and covered up their "terrosist" activities (like killing an admiral).[/quote]This is speculation. Admiral Kohaku was found, dead, in a Cerberus Facility. All this shows is that Cerberus killed him, and it does not in any way link the Alliance to Cerberus. In fact, this is evidence AGAINST Cerberus being part of the Alliance anymore, seeing as how they killed an Admiral. A ****ING ADMIRAL. I highly doubt the Alliance would just let them do that.[/quote] I was saying that the Alliance cover it up. Did not say Kahoku died heroically, battling the terrorists. They said he died of natural causes, like, you know, weak health, or something...


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Shepard says explicitly (while aboard the Flotilla) that he is no longer part of the Alliance.[/quote]Major Antella would disagree.[/quote]Don't know what you are talking about because I havn't finished the game (just got it a couple days ago). So don't ruin whatever that is for me [/quote] I thought you'd read the Shadow Broker's files...


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Jacob tells Shepard that he left the Alliance and joined up with Cerberus because he likes how they do things better than the Alliance. If they were still part of the Alliance, he wouldn't have to leave them to join Cerberus.[/quote]Technically, he would. To maintain the deniability. He doesn't really need to know that Cerberus works for the Alliance.[/quote]Again, this is just speculation. The only evidence here is that the Cerberus is not with the Alliance.[/quote]I just say that Jacob wouldn't be told either way. Therefore, you can't really use it as evidence for either of the hypotheses.



[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

The Shadow Broker's information on Cerberus is that they have gone rogue.[/quote]The Shadow Broker had no inforamtion that Cerberus had been ever involved with the Alliance in the first place. [/quote]You have to be involved with a government to go rogue. So yes, they WERE involved with the Alliance. Then they went rogue.[/quote]When?


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

THE SHADOW BROKER IS NEVER WRONG.

Unless he was wrong about something, in which case sometimes he is wrong. But seriously, if the Shadow Broker has Cerberus listed as a rogue organization, then you can bet your ass they are.[/quote]Yes, he could be wrong. Proof: he is dead.[/quote]So being mortal is proof that he was wrong about it?[/quote]He died because his information was that he'd been safe. That was incorrect information.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

That makes no sense. He COULD be wrong, but it is extremely unlikely. The Shadow Broker was not careless, and he would not archive something like that unless he was sure about it. (If he was unsure, it would say something like "Possible rogue agency" instead of just saying definitively that it went rogue.)[/quote] "Rogue" is such a tricky word. The Shadow Broker's file says Cerberus was founded "rogue" already. Also, check the link in the OP.

"Rogue" may mean "bad evil ruthless renegade", as opposed to "uncontrolled by the higher level constituent". And I say, it is being used all over the place in the former sense, possibly even by Kahoku.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

One more thing. In ME1, you can basically destroy a bunch of Cerberus bases. If you do, you can get a bunch of intel on them. You can either give it to Alliance Command (which they would thank you for, further evidence they are not working with Cerberus anymore) [/quote] Or it is further evindence that the Alliance is f*cking polite.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

or the Shadow Broker. My guess is THIS is where he got the information they went rogue, from Cerberus' own files.
[/quote] And my guess is that since it was an optional choice, and one not referenced in ME2 at all, THIS must have been junk, like, how many cigarettes TIM smokes a day.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

In addition, there is a mission (I think it's Jack's loyalty mission, but I forget which for sure) where you can get more Cerberus files. You can either keep them, give them to Cerberus, or give them to Alliance Command, at which point they will thank you and say something like "this is a major victory for us agains't Cerberus" or something of the like. Say that they would have to to maintain deniability all you want, but again, that is all speculation, and as the evidence stands it just further shows that Cerberus is a rogue agency, and not working for the Alliance.
[/quote] Naturally, (and I reiterate that in the OP) not all parts of the Alliance are aware of the true flag of the black ops group Cerberus. Rear Admiral Anderson, for instance, is kept out of the loop. And since the files you send to the Alliance after that mission go to him (he sends you the "Thank you" e-mail), it's no evidence at all, just as with Jacob.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Also consider that Cerberus is funded by many donators, investors, and interest groups. Not the Alliance.
[/quote]
Sure, they are all just very bad people. And the Alliance is so full of them...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[chrono21791]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote..

I was saying that the Alliance cover it up. Did not say Kahoku died heroically, battling the terrorists. They said he died of natural causes, like, you know, weak health, or something...[/quote]

Fair point.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote..

I thought you'd read the Shadow Broker's files...[/quote]

I did. Must have missed something. Or maybe you see it later? I just beat LotSB a couple hours ago.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I just say that Jacob wouldn't be told either way. Therefore, you can't really use it as evidence for either of the hypotheses.[/quote]

Actually, it's evidence that Cerberus isn't with the Alliance. Jacob had to quit the Alliance to join Cerberus. Is that evidence Cerberus is rogue and not working with the alliance? Yes. If Jacob was purposfully not told that they were connected, would that be evidence for your case? Yes. But you would have to prove that, and you cant, so as it stands, it is evidence that Cerberus is rogue.

[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

]You have to be involved with a government to go rogue. So yes, they WERE involved with the Alliance. Then they went rogue.[/quote]When?[/quote]Um. Before they went rogue. 
...not sure I understand you.


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

He died because his information was that he'd been safe. That was incorrect information.[/quote]1, he knew that he wasn't safe. That's why he was trying to get Liara killed so much, because he knew she was after him, and he knew she was on the verge of finding out where he is. So, he got killed because Liara was better, not because he was wrong. 2, even if he did think he was safe, underestimating someone does not mean you are wrong about everything, ever. He was an information dealer. His sources HAVE to be accurate.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

That makes no sense. He COULD be wrong, but it is extremely unlikely. The Shadow Broker was not careless, and he would not archive something like that unless he was sure about it. (If he was unsure, it would say something like "Possible rogue agency" instead of just saying definitively that it went rogue.)[/quote] "Rogue" is such a tricky word. The Shadow Broker's file says Cerberus was founded "rogue" already. Also, check the link in the OP.

"Rogue" may mean "bad evil ruthless renegade", as opposed to "uncontrolled by the higher level constituent". And I say, it is being used all over the place in the former sense, possibly even by Kahoku.[/quote]

Um, no. Kohaku says "Cerberus has gone completely rogue, Shepard!" If it was used like you think, than the grammar doesn't make sense. Also,
rogue   
[rohg] Show IPA
noun, verb, rogued, ro·guing, adjective
–noun
1.
a dishonest, knavish person; scoundrel.
2.
a playfully mischievous person; scamp: The youngest boys are little rogues.
3.
a tramp or vagabond.

"Rogue" does not mean "bad, evil, or renegade". It is more on the line of "tricky, mischievious, and prone to thievery". Cerberus is not a band of merry men, they're friggen' terrorists. 

C'mon, don't be silly. We both know they use the term "rogue" as the military would use it (seeing as how they are all pretty much military anyway), as in "uncontrolled by the higher level constituent". Again, you cannot be founded as a rogue organization, because you would have to BECOME rogue. Otherwise, they would just be a terrorist/supremicist group, and not rogue.



[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

One more thing. In ME1, you can basically destroy a bunch of Cerberus bases. If you do, you can get a bunch of intel on them. You can either give it to Alliance Command (which they would thank you for, further evidence they are not working with Cerberus anymore) [/quote] Or it is further evindence that the Alliance is f*cking polite.[/quote]It's both.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

or the Shadow Broker. My guess is THIS is where he got the information they went rogue, from Cerberus' own files.
[/quote] And my guess is that since it was an optional choice, and one not referenced in ME2 at all, THIS must have been junk, like, how many cigarettes TIM smokes a day.[/quote]They were probably planning on using this, but never implemented it because of the way the story went. The agent who buys the information from you does say "The Shadow Broker will remember this the next time you need him for something."


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

In addition, there is a mission (I think it's Jack's loyalty mission, but I forget which for sure) where you can get more Cerberus files. You can either keep them, give them to Cerberus, or give them to Alliance Command, at which point they will thank you and say something like "this is a major victory for us agains't Cerberus" or something of the like. Say that they would have to to maintain deniability all you want, but again, that is all speculation, and as the evidence stands it just further shows that Cerberus is a rogue agency, and not working for the Alliance.
[/quote] Naturally, (and I reiterate that in the OP) not all parts of the Alliance are aware of the true flag of the black ops group Cerberus. Rear Admiral Anderson, for instance, is kept out of the loop. And since the files you send to the Alliance after that mission go to him (he sends you the "Thank you" e-mail), it's no evidence at all, just as with Jacob.[/quote]Claiming that evidence against your theory doesn't count because according to your theory it's not really evidence is kinda silly. As it stands, this is simply evidence againts your theory, unless you can in some way prove that Anderson being left out is actually the case.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Also consider that Cerberus is funded by many donators, investors, and interest groups. Not the Alliance.
[/quote]
Sure, they are all just very bad people. And the Alliance is so full of them...[/quote]...what?

[MasterofMunchaster]

Madecologist wrote...

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

On the vids inside the Shadow Broker ship, we clearly see Anderson talking to a Cerberus Officer.

[Asheer_Khan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why would they need to steal anything, if the Alliance would just give it to them, so that they (Cord-Hislop, Inc.) could build it?

Riiiight... like Alliance would willingly haded over top secret plans of experimental ship to third party risking serious political **** storm between Alliance and Hierarchy if such act would be exposed...<_<

Regardless of true affiliations between tim and Alliance for Turians failberus is considered as terrorists faction so exposing fact (wanabe wiki-leak can happened even in ME Universe... or even my dear blue broker can leak proper information if necessary) that Alliance did share plans of SR-1 with failberus would CUT OFF permanently any future military cooperation between humans and turians and i really doubt Alliance IS that crazy stupid to risk such thing...

And for Anderson's meeting with failberus guy... what if he was Anderson personal mole within timmy's organization and they talk about preparations to events showed in Retribution?

Since Shep have no problem with free movement within Citadel wearing failberus "logo" then it's fair to say that Anderson's meeting with "Cord-Hislop employee" wouldn't draw as well any questions from anyone who would see such in real time.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 06 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I thought you'd read the Shadow Broker's files...[/quote]I did. Must have missed something. Or maybe you see it later? I just beat LotSB a couple hours ago.[/quote]Re-read Hackett's file.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I just say that Jacob wouldn't be told either way. Therefore, you can't really use it as evidence for either of the hypotheses.[/quote]Actually, it's evidence that Cerberus isn't with the Alliance. Jacob had to quit the Alliance to join Cerberus. Is that evidence Cerberus is rogue and not working with the alliance? Yes.[/quote]No. Since Cerberus is not an official Alliance division, people can't just be transfered there.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

If Jacob was purposfully not told that they were connected, would that be evidence for your case? Yes. But you would have to prove that, and you cant, so as it stands, it is evidence that Cerberus is rogue.[/quote]The Corsairs also technically weren't part of the Alliance. The difference is that about the Corsairs Jacob knew that it was "the Alliance initative". About Cerebrus he does not know. That's why Cerberus is more efficient.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

You have to be involved with a government to go rogue. So yes, they WERE involved with the Alliance. Then they went rogue.[/quote]When?[/quote]Um. Before they went rogue. 
...not sure I understand you.[/quote]When they went "rogue"? The year?


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

He died because his information was that he'd been safe. That was incorrect information.[/quote]1, he knew that he wasn't safe.[/quote]Source?

I've got an impression he was just sitting on his ass doing nothing, even as Vasir failed to report back. That's not how people behave when they are not safe.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

That's why he was trying to get Liara killed so much, because he knew she was after him, and he knew she was on the verge of finding out where he is.[/quote]
Mmm, actually, Liara says herself (if you expose Nixeris), that she could have been killed plenty of times if Nixeris moved first. But the Shadow Broker never gave the order, until it was too late.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

So, he got killed because Liara was better, not because he was wrong.
[/quote]
He got killed, because TIM made everyone think, that Liara was on her own (while in fact she was his agent all the time). He also made the Shadow Broker believe to have the upper hand, by letting Wilson work on Shepard. And then Wilson was terminated (along with possible other traitors) at the very last moment, shutting the Shadow Broker's channels into Cerberus.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

2, even if he did think he was safe, underestimating someone does not mean you are wrong about everything, ever. He was an information dealer. His sources HAVE to be accurate.[/quote]
Right. So the people who know the whole truth about Cerberus were not among his sources, obviously.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

That makes no sense. He COULD be wrong, but it is extremely unlikely. The Shadow Broker was not careless, and he would not archive something like that unless he was sure about it. (If he was unsure, it would say something like "Possible rogue agency" instead of just saying definitively that it went rogue.)[/quote] "Rogue" is such a tricky word. The Shadow Broker's file says Cerberus was founded "rogue" already. Also, check the link in the OP.

"Rogue" may mean "bad evil ruthless renegade", as opposed to "uncontrolled by the higher level constituent". And I say, it is being used all over the place in the former sense, possibly even by Kahoku.[/quote]Um, no. Kohaku says "Cerberus has gone completely rogue, Shepard!" If it was used like you think, than the grammar doesn't make sense.[/quote]"So, Harkin went completely bad..." - Commander Shepard.

Looks like the same grammar structure to me.

[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Also,

rogue   
[rohg] Show IPA
noun, verb, rogued, ro·guing, adjective
–noun
1.
a dishonest, knavish person; scoundrel.
2.
a playfully mischievous person; scamp: The youngest boys are little rogues.
3.
a tramp or vagabond.

"Rogue" does not mean "bad, evil, or renegade". It is more on the line of "tricky, mischievious, and prone to thievery". Cerberus is not a band of merry men, they're friggen' terrorists.[/quote]Terrorists (aka evil people) on the Alliance's unofficial payroll. That's "black ops" for you.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

C'mon, don't be silly. We both know they use the term "rogue" as the military would use it (seeing as how they are all pretty much military anyway), as in "uncontrolled by the higher level constituent". Again, you cannot be founded as a rogue organization, because you would have to BECOME rogue. Otherwise, they would just be a terrorist/supremicist group, and not rogue.
[/quote]
The Shadow Broker's file itself does not maintain your interpretation. It states that the Systems Alliance has declared them terrorists in pretty much the same sentence, but mentions nothing as to the former affiliation of Cerberus with the Alliance. As to the "military sense" of the word, tell that to the CNN journalist, who described a somewhat criminal against the law, but otherwise loyal to the US flag unit as "rogue", and to BioWare, who put a left-hand salute into the game.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

One more thing. In ME1, you can basically destroy a bunch of Cerberus bases. If you do, you can get a bunch of intel on them. You can either give it to Alliance Command (which they would thank you for, further evidence they are not working with Cerberus anymore) [/quote] Or it is further evindence that the Alliance is f*cking polite.[/quote]It's both.
[/quote]Really?

Same as Jacob, can go both ways, can't be evidence of anything.


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

or the Shadow Broker. My guess is THIS is where he got the information they went rogue, from Cerberus' own files.
[/quote] And my guess is that since it was an optional choice, and one not referenced in ME2 at all, THIS must have been junk, like, how many cigarettes TIM smokes a day.[/quote]They were probably planning on using this, but never implemented it because of the way the story went. The agent who buys the information from you does say "The Shadow Broker will remember this the next time you need him for something."[/quote]Sure, because it turned out that the info had been junk, the story went the good way (aka Cerberus disposed of the Shadow Broker).


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

In addition, there is a mission (I think it's Jack's loyalty mission, but I forget which for sure) where you can get more Cerberus files. You can either keep them, give them to Cerberus, or give them to Alliance Command, at which point they will thank you and say something like "this is a major victory for us agains't Cerberus" or something of the like. Say that they would have to to maintain deniability all you want, but again, that is all speculation, and as the evidence stands it just further shows that Cerberus is a rogue agency, and not working for the Alliance.
[/quote] Naturally, (and I reiterate that in the OP) not all parts of the Alliance are aware of the true flag of the black ops group Cerberus. Rear Admiral Anderson, for instance, is kept out of the loop. And since the files you send to the Alliance after that mission go to him (he sends you the "Thank you" e-mail), it's no evidence at all, just as with Jacob.[/quote]Claiming that evidence against your theory doesn't count because according to your theory it's not really evidence is kinda silly. As it stands, this is simply evidence againts your theory, unless you can in some way prove that Anderson being left out is actually the case.[/quote]*Sigh*

Go read Anderson's dossier at the Shadow Broker's. It contains a message to Anderson (even if he is Councillor) that practically literally says: "You're being kept out of the loop, mind your own damn business!"


[quote]chrono21791 wrote...[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...[quote]chrono21791 wrote...

Also consider that Cerberus is funded by many donators, investors, and interest groups. Not the Alliance.
[/quote]Sure, they are all just very bad people. And the Alliance is so full of them...[/quote]...what?[/quote]
What "what"?

It's not like the wealthy people have ever anything to do with politics, so that's definitely the proof that Cerberus has nothing to do with the Alliance, right?


[quote]MasterofMunchaster wrote...

On the vids inside the Shadow Broker ship, we clearly see Anderson talking to a Cerberus Officer.
[/quote]
It's not a Cerberus "officer". It's just a Cerberus "guy". Anderson may even think that he is collecting an important piece of intelligence on Cerberus via a mole, but chances are better that it's just TIM conveying his "carefully disguised rumors" about Shepard, Cerberus and Horizon.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why would they need to steal anything, if the Alliance would just give it to them, so that they (Cord-Hislop, Inc.) could build it?

Riiiight... like Alliance would willingly haded over top secret plans of experimental ship to third party risking serious political **** storm between Alliance and Hierarchy if such act would be exposed...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Have you ever heard of the Alliance's state owned shipyards? I haven't.

[J0HNL3I]

instresting. very intresting<_<

[Prince of Kemet]

There is no "Black" or "White." There are only shades of "Gray."

[Biotic_Warlock]

Admiral hackett in ME1 confirmed they were an alliance group.
The alliance are probably against them because of their methods and ideas... though they are still Alliance.