798 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Let's keep voting, people!

Is the Alliance evil, or inept?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[Arijharn]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Riiiight... like Alliance would willingly haded over top secret plans of experimental ship to third party risking serious political **** storm between Alliance and Hierarchy if such act would be exposed...<_<

The point Zulu is trying to point out Asheer is that Cerberus isn't quite a 'third party' as you'd like to believe... and, if Cord-Hislop was actually instrumental in developing the SR-1, then if someone like The Illusive Man actually has a real life persona and is a boardmember on the company or something, he could likely walk straight in, request the blueprints and nobody would so much bat an eyelash.

To be fair though, what would the chance of it being successfully 'exposed'? Not only that, but obviously the Alliance would spin it anyway, you know damage control etc, etc.

[MajorStranger]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why would they need to steal anything, if the Alliance would just give it to them, so that they (Cord-Hislop, Inc.) could build it?

Riiiight... like Alliance would willingly haded over top secret plans of experimental ship to third party risking serious political **** storm between Alliance and Hierarchy if such act would be exposed...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Have you ever heard of the Alliance's state owned shipyards? I haven't.

Have you heard of Area 51? You know here it's where the SR-71 Blackbird has been built and tested using Lockeed pieces but builded by USAF Engineer. Then, (meaning after the plane has been officialised a couple years later) The commissioned Lockeed to build more copies by giving them the schematics. Experimental technology commissionned by the military are never given to corporation, they are created by team of military scientist-Engineer, then approuved by the board of Staff, AND THEN  commissionned to corporation to build in larger level. And While yes we have not heard of government owner shipyard, there is no reason to believe none exist. Your facts are based on total biased assumption. How can you assume Cereberus got hiden shipyard to build the Normandy SR-2 but the Alliance doesn't? 

[MajorStranger]

What are the Odds of seeing this in the game? If it's not in the game, IT'S NOT CANON!

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

Have you heard of Area 51? You know here it's where the SR-71 Blackbird has been built and tested using Lockeed pieces but builded by USAF Engineer. Then, (meaning after the plane has been officialised a couple years later) The commissioned Lockeed to build more copies by giving them the schematics. Experimental technology commissionned by the military are never given to corporation, they are created by team of military scientist-Engineer, then approuved by the board of Staff, AND THEN  commissionned to corporation to build in larger level. And While yes we have not heard of government owner shipyard, there is no reason to believe none exist. Your facts are based on total biased assumption. How can you assume Cereberus got hiden shipyard to build the Normandy SR-2 but the Alliance doesn't?

1. We do hear on one occasion about the Cerberus' secret shipyard. We never hear of the Alliance's government owned secret shipyards.

2. I was not even saying that it must definitely have been Cord-Hislop that researched and built the whole of the SR-1. Just pointing out that there might have been easier ways for Cerberus to obtain the blueprints, than sneaking in the dark into some admiral's bedroom, hacking his wall safe and photocopying them... Especially since certain "sympathizers" could place all the orders with the "right" companies.

3. For the umpteenth time: the Alliance is not a US in Space. The extent of the outsourcing may be way larger than is common these days. For all we know, the Alliance may be just a de facto overglorified mercenary company running protection racket in the Human space.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 03:36 .

[MajorStranger]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Have you heard of Area 51? You know here it's where the SR-71 Blackbird has been built and tested using Lockeed pieces but builded by USAF Engineer. Then, (meaning after the plane has been officialised a couple years later) The commissioned Lockeed to build more copies by giving them the schematics. Experimental technology commissionned by the military are never given to corporation, they are created by team of military scientist-Engineer, then approuved by the board of Staff, AND THEN  commissionned to corporation to build in larger level. And While yes we have not heard of government owner shipyard, there is no reason to believe none exist. Your facts are based on total biased assumption. How can you assume Cereberus got hiden shipyard to build the Normandy SR-2 but the Alliance doesn't?

1. We do hear on one occasion about the Cerberus' secret shipyard. We never hear of the Alliance's government owned secret shipyards.

2. I was not even saying that id must definitley have been Cord-Hislop that researched and built the SR-1. Just pointing out that there might have been easier ways for Cerberus to obtain the blueprints that sneaking in the dark into some Admirals bedroom, hacking his wall safe and photocopying them... Especially since certain "sympathizers" could place all the orders to the "right" companies.

3. For the umpteenth time: the Alliance is not a US in Space. The extent of the outsourcing may be way larger than is common these days. For all we know, the Alliance may be just a de facto overglorified mercenary company running protection racket in the Human space.

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF? YOU'VE ****ING GOT NOTHING!

The Alliance has been created as a supranational body funded by Earth's Nation. While we do not know much about how thing are made there is no proof or clue that they are a Overglorified mercenary company. You keep assuming things to your advantage and discarding everything that would crumble your damn theory.

Modifié par MajorStranger, 06 mars 2011 - 03:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF? YOU'VE ****ING GOT NOTHING!

OP?

MajorStranger wrote...

The Alliance has been created as a supranational body funded by Earth's Nation. While we do not know much
about how thing are made there is no proof or clue that they are a Overglorified mercenary company.

The fact that the Alliance went rogue during the FCW?

MajorStranger wrote...

You keep assuming things to your advantage

So do you, don't you?

MajorStranger wrote...

and discarding everything that would crumble your damn theory.

The only thing that would crumble my theory would be the Alliance taking decisive action against Cerberus. As opposed to covering up for Cerberus' killing one of its admirals and making another betray itself to go after them.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[MajorStranger]

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

Of course, he should have made himself more clear, so that you guys could get it right.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[MajorStranger]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

The guy knew almost nothing of Cerberus, He went deeper and got killed. That's no proof. If they were indeed a black ops division, don't you think the Alliance would have really killed a Rear-Admiral to covert up? I understand some marines, but an Admiral? That's way too high-profile. they would have make him silenced by ruining his career, not kill him.

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

The guy knew almost nothing of Cerberus, He went deeper and got killed. That's no proof. If they were indeed a black ops division, don't you think the Alliance would have really killed a Rear-Admiral to covert up? I understand some marines, but an Admiral? That's way too high-profile. they would have make him silenced by ruining his career, not kill him.

If they ruined his carrier it'd be the quickest way to make him go to the alien media. As it is, he had a heart attack. And, BTW, there are always a lot of Captains awaiting promotion.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

OrlesianWardenCommander
2011-03-06 5:31 AM
Well it's corrupt at the top of alliance command, cerberus defiantly has deep roots with alliance command, go too the shadow brokers lair too the video room you'll see Anderson talking to a Cerberus agent. But the alliance is not nessarialy evil most commanders and common soldiers still have pure intentions but just haven't realized what goes on behind the counter. I don't approve of Cerberus but they are nice too have around whenever human and alien relations go sour from time too time.

[MajorStranger]

And this is why your theory doesn't add up, you discard other possibility so easily. It's because of people like you that JFK was killed by Secret Service, We never went to the moon, the Holocaust never happpened, 9/11 was made by Jewish ultranationalist and we'll all die in 2012.

[Volus Warlord]

MajorStranger wrote...

And this is why your theory doesn't add up, you discard other possibility so easily. It's because of people like you that JFK was killed by Secret Service, We never went to the moon, the Holocaust never happpened, 9/11 was made by Jewish ultranationalist and we'll all die in 2012.

Conspiracy theory is fun, alright? Nobody wants to believe how simple some events are, so they make up a byzantine net of lies and religiously adhere to them.

[Zulu_DFA]

MajorStranger wrote...

 we'll all die in 2012.

That's right.

The Reapers will have arrived by then.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Well the alliance isn't evil, if we were we'd be expanding making a unified galactic empire not trying too improve diplomatic relations with other alien races, cerberus has agents at the top and bottom of the alliance chain, doesn't make them evil.

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

Cerberus is working for the Alliance everyone needs a version of the CIA someone willing to kill innocents for the greater good right?

[Rekkampum]

Pwener2313 wrote...

The alliance has never said that Cerberus is a rogue organization. Kahoku didn't even know they existed until Shepard told him of the inccident and he started snooping around.

Kahoku learned about Cerberus through the Shadow Broker, and based on the intel he received, he decided they were a "rogue black ops group" that was once part of the Alliance. See here.

EDIT: I'm including a video I found that shows Admiral Kahoku's transmission to Shepard about Cerberus. Just skip to 9:20 and you can hear the Admiral's words about his findings for yourself.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 06 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Foehunter82]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

The guy knew almost nothing of Cerberus, He went deeper and got killed. That's no proof. If they were indeed a black ops division, don't you think the Alliance would have really killed a Rear-Admiral to covert up? I understand some marines, but an Admiral? That's way too high-profile. they would have make him silenced by ruining his career, not kill him.

If they ruined his carrier it'd be the quickest way to make him go to the alien media. As it is, he had a heart attack. And, BTW, there are always a lot of Captains awaiting promotion.

Ok.  First of all, the Kahoku incident only implies that Cerberus may have operatives among the Alliance's top brass.  These would be people in positions to cover up Cerberus' shadier dealings.  It does not mean that Cerberus has anything to do with the Alliance any longer.  Kahoku himself even said that they're an Alliance black ops group that went rogue.  So, yes, they did have ties to the Alliance, but it's also entirely likely that they actually did go rogue.

And clearly, you're forgetting the fact that Kahoku had needle marks on his body, which could indicate he was poisoned.  Assuming he died of a heart attack is a load of BS.

Modifié par Foehunter82, 06 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Foehunter82 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

The guy knew almost nothing of Cerberus, He went deeper and got killed. That's no proof. If they were indeed a black ops division, don't you think the Alliance would have really killed a Rear-Admiral to covert up? I understand some marines, but an Admiral? That's way too high-profile. they would have make him silenced by ruining his career, not kill him.

If they ruined his carrier it'd be the quickest way to make him go to the alien media. As it is, he had a heart attack. And, BTW, there are always a lot of Captains awaiting promotion.

Ok.  First of all, the Kahoku incident only implies that Cerberus may have operatives among the Alliance's top brass.  These would be people in positions to cover up Cerberus' shadier dealings.  It does not mean that Cerberus has anything to do with the Alliance any longer.  Kahoku himself even said that they're an Alliance black ops group that went rogue.  So, yes, they did have ties to the Alliance, but it's also entirely likely that they actually did go rogue.

And clearly, you're forgetting the fact that Kahoku had needle marks on his body, which could indicate he was poisoned.  Assuming he died of a heart attack is a load of BS.

Have you even bothered to read through the OP?

[Foehunter82]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Foehunter82 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

That's not proof. You need source, you only got a bunch of assumption based on half-truth.

My source is Rear Admiral Kahoku.

The guy knew almost nothing of Cerberus, He went deeper and got killed. That's no proof. If they were indeed a black ops division, don't you think the Alliance would have really killed a Rear-Admiral to covert up? I understand some marines, but an Admiral? That's way too high-profile. they would have make him silenced by ruining his career, not kill him.

If they ruined his carrier it'd be the quickest way to make him go to the alien media. As it is, he had a heart attack. And, BTW, there are always a lot of Captains awaiting promotion.

Ok.  First of all, the Kahoku incident only implies that Cerberus may have operatives among the Alliance's top brass.  These would be people in positions to cover up Cerberus' shadier dealings.  It does not mean that Cerberus has anything to do with the Alliance any longer.  Kahoku himself even said that they're an Alliance black ops group that went rogue.  So, yes, they did have ties to the Alliance, but it's also entirely likely that they actually did go rogue.

And clearly, you're forgetting the fact that Kahoku had needle marks on his body, which could indicate he was poisoned.  Assuming he died of a heart attack is a load of BS.

Have you even bothered to read through the OP?

Yes, I have.  You're entire theory hinges on the idea that Cerberus has always done the Alliance's dirty work which is why they're not "rogue."  They're just called that because the Alliance needs plausible deniability.  Great.  I get your theory.

Kahoku was murdered by Cerberus who very likely may have gone rogue.  There are enough Cerberus operatives in Alliance Command who could have covered it up.

You're also running a poll on whether the Alliance is evil or inept.  Bottom line, it is what it is:  A bureaucratic nightmare just like every world government of today.  There's corruption throughout the Alliance.  It doesn't make it evil, but it does mean that it's damaged on some level.  It also doesn't mean it's inept.  It just means that the people who can fix the problem are either dead, or don't know what's going on.

[swenson]

On Kahoku's mode of death, the Alliance was the ones reporting it as natural causes. We know it wasn't, of course, but that's because we were able to examine the body. Obviously the news media wasn't allowed to examine the body (which is entirely reasonable--when are reporters ever allowed to randomly examine dead bodies?), so they would only know what the Alliance told them.

So there has to be a reason why the Alliance didn't admit the true means of Kahoku's death. Whether because they didn't want to alert people (humans and aliens alike) to the existence of a pro-human terrorist group or because they didn't want to admit their connection with it (assuming Cerberus really was originally with the Alliance; in this case, it wouldn't matter whether they went rogue or not. Revealing to the press that a group that used to be in the Alliance and very well might still have connections... that would not be a smart political move), the Alliance deliberately covered up Kahoku's means of death.

I'm not sure if I'd say Cerberus was an official part of the Alliance, but I think there's enough evidence to support the idea that they are at least unofficially connected to the Alliance. Maybe the Alliance doesn't officially sanction or approve their actions, but they're willing to look the other way and slip them information/money/supplies so long as Cerberus takes care of things for them. TIM is right when he says all governments need a group like Cerberus (the salarian STG, for example). Doesn't make me any happier about Cerberus' existence or operations (and I don't think the Alliance had anything to do with, for example, Kahoku's death or the experiments with biotic children), but I understand why the Alliance allows it to exist.

[Zulu_DFA]

Foehunter82 wrote...

Yes, I have.  You're entire theory hinges on the idea that Cerberus has always done the Alliance's dirty work which is why they're not "rogue."  They're just called that because the Alliance needs plausible deniability.  Great.  I get your theory.

They are not only called "rogue", but they are also called "terrorists" and "seditionists" which they are most definitely not. And they always were called that, even before they could have a chance to go rogue.

Foehunter82 wrote...

Kahoku was murdered by Cerberus who very likely may have gone rogue.  There are enough Cerberus operatives in Alliance Command who could have covered it up.

Killing Kahoku does not mean Cerberus can not be answering to people above Kahoku.

And how many is it "enough"? Home many of he Alliance Command are Cerberus "operatives"? 10%? 20%? Or 100% in the key positions?

Foehunter82 wrote...

You're also running a poll on whether the Alliance is evil or inept.  Bottom line, it is what it is:  A bureaucratic nightmare just like every world government of today.  There's corruption throughout the Alliance.  It doesn't make it evil, but it does mean that it's damaged on some level.  It also doesn't mean it's inept.  It just means that the people who can fix the problem are either dead, or don't know what's going on.

In other words, the Alliace is inept.
First off, because it has spawned Cerberus and failed to control it. Then it allowed that project to backfire and go rogue. And then Cerberus managed to infiltrate the Alliance to the point that several of its
own ranking officers, including a lauded war hero, need to betray it to
keep "fighting the good fight".

Or...

[Zulu_DFA]

swenson wrote...

So there has to be a reason why the Alliance didn't admit the true means of Kahoku's death. Whether because they didn't want to alert people (humans and aliens alike) to the existence of a pro-human terrorist group or because they didn't want to admit their connection with it (assuming Cerberus really was originally with the Alliance; in this case, it wouldn't matter whether they went rogue or not. Revealing to the press that a group that used to be in the Alliance and very well might still have connections... that would not be a smart political move), the Alliance deliberately covered up Kahoku's means of death.

How would the revelation that Kahoku was killed by the "terrorists" harm the Alliance and implicate that the "terrorists" were in fact its own black ops outfit? In fact, some truth (about Kahoku) seems to be coming up in ME2 (so long as you've saved both Cpl. Toombs and Dr. Wayne in ME1).

The only reason I see plausible, is that the Alliance would want to cover any Cerberus action regardless of potential implications to its proper self.

swenson wrote...

I'm not sure if I'd say Cerberus was an official part of the Alliance,

They never were. "Black ops" = unofficial. Otherwise its just "covert ops".

swenson wrote...

but I think there's enough evidence to support the idea that they are at least unofficially connected to the Alliance. Maybe the Alliance doesn't officially sanction or approve their actions, but they're willing to look the other way and slip them information/money/supplies so long as Cerberus takes care of things for them.

That's the idea.

swenson wrote...

TIM is right when he says all governments need a group like Cerberus (the salarian STG, for example). Doesn't make me any happier about Cerberus' existence or operations (and I don't think the Alliance had anything to do with, for example, Kahoku's death or the experiments with biotic children), but I understand why the Alliance allows it to exist.

Cool.

[chrono21791]

OOOOOOOOOOOK guys, I get it, Zulu is trollin'. That, or he has no idea what evidence actually is, how to use it, or how to prove or support a claim. You have no proof. You have only speculation. I read the entire OP and there was not a single shred of SOLID evidence that definitively pointed to supporting his claim.