798 réponses à ce sujet

[Schroing]

I'm pretty sure it says they went rogue right in the codex, for one, and for two Alliance soldiers and Cerberus are -constantly- at odds. That's completely against the best interests of both groups, and a conflict that logically wouldn't exist if Cerberus had any sort of legitimate pull (as opposed to simple corruption) in the higher-up branches. It's possible to deny responsibility without actively waging war; see an Alliance project that already did that, the Corsairs.
So I'd call this is a fairly unlikely theory, if not implausible.

Modifié par Schroing, 08 mars 2010 - 12:43 .

[Ardonia]

oh how I dispise self proclaimed necessary organizations

[Onyx Jaguar]

Ardonia wrote...

oh how I dispise self proclaimed necessary organizations

At least they pay you per mission and don't force you to scrap credits out of garbage cans.

That is optional++

Plus playing through ME 1 again at the moment, pretty much what was said about Kohouku (damn I should have quoted his name) appears to be the case.  It more or leaves the speculation up to the player but I am also more inclined to believe that Cerberus is part of the Alliance than a rogue entity.  For deniability sakes yes, but that is just what I am gathering at the moment.  Interesting the things you notice when going from ME 2 back to ME 1 (besides the extreme graphical upgrade and stupid shooting mechanics, also helps that I am used to meleeing and when ever I press that button in ME 1 I put my damn gun away, yesssss).

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 mars 2010 - 12:52 .

[Schroing]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Ardonia wrote...

oh how I dispise self proclaimed necessary organizations

At least they pay you and don't force you to scrap credits out of garbage cans.

That is optional++

Plus playing through ME 1 again at the moment, pretty much what was said about Kohouku (damn I should have quoted his name) appears to be the case.  It more or leaves the speculation up to the player but I am also more inclined to believe that Cerberus is part of the Alliance than a rogue entity.  For deniability sakes yes, but that is just what I am gathering at the moment.  Interesting the things you notice when going from ME 2 back to ME 1 (besides the extreme graphical upgrade and stupid shooting mechanics, also helps that I am used to meleeing and when ever I press that button in ME 1 I put my damn gun away, yesssss).

That makes no more sense than Cerberus just killing him because they're a terrorist ****ing organisation and he's trying to stop them.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well if you have a guy coming to kill you and expose you, regardless of being in a different department what would you do? Its just a can of worms waiting to happen he has to be dealt with from that perspective.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 mars 2010 - 12:57 .

[Schroing]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well if you have a guy coming to kill you and exploit you, regardless of being in a different department what would you do? Its just a can of worms waiting to happen he has to be dealt with from that perspective.

I'm not saying that idea wouldn't work, at least in this aspect. It's just that there's nothing, absolutely nothing, about the Cerberus story we've already heard that would be inconsistent following logical sense, nor is there anything, anything at all suggesting that even a single part of the idea the OP brought up has a single bit of truth.

Could it happen? Sure. It could also happen that Garrus is a Reaper, sent undercover as a Turian to learn about Citadel Security and who eventually abandoned his post there because he had a chance to investigate a fascinating human subject, Shepard.

Think about it. The first time you meet him, he's already sabotaging the Saren investigation. And the only thing his class is useful for in ME1 is hacking for you, which he's awful at because his hacking abilities are buried under like eighteen other ones. And even more think about it, he's just like the reapers - a blend of organic and inorganic material, even in the first game! That eyepiece isn't external, it's internal. He can do all of his tech abilities without an omni-tool, he just carries one to pass it off as normal.

And in the ME2, those aren't cybernetic implants to hold him together. He never visited Chakwas - all that technological stuff is there naturally. All the wire under his scaring, already there. Even more think about it; he never actually helps you directly. Dr. Saleon was probably even innocent, a story made to conjure up a sense of loyalty from you. And all that time on Omega was just more study.

I guess I'm saying I can ****ing do it too.

[CC-Tron]

applehug wrote...

BigBody26 wrote...

I was playing through ME1 again and at one point Admiral Kahoku contacts me.  He explains that he found out who set his men up, the ones killed by the thresher maw.  He goes onto say that

"[/i]It was a group called Cerberus, [/b][b]an Alliance Black Ops organization..."[i]

I had heard that transmission during other playthroughs but never gave it much thought.  Hearing it this time made me stop a bit.  It would appear the OP is correct...Cerberus is most likely a part of the alliance. 

Doesn't he also explain they went rouge before than?

That's what Admiral Kahoku thought based on his belief that the Alliance would not be involved in such shady activities. In his mind Cerberus had to have gone rogue from the Alliance. He was naive.

Modifié par CC-Tron, 08 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CC-Tron wrote...

applehug wrote...

BigBody26 wrote...

I was playing through ME1 again and at one point Admiral Kahoku contacts me.  He explains that he found out who set his men up, the ones killed by the thresher maw.  He goes onto say that

"[/i]It was a group called Cerberus, [/b][b]an Alliance Black Ops organization..."[i]

I had heard that transmission during other playthroughs but never gave it much thought.  Hearing it this time made me stop a bit.  It would appear the OP is correct...Cerberus is most likely a part of the alliance. 

Doesn't he also explain they went rouge before than?

That's what Admiral Kahoku thought based on his belief that the Alliance would not be involved in such shady activities. In his mind Cerberus had to have gone rogue from the Alliance. He was naive.

And nobody seems to have looked at the matter this way:

Kahoku, an Alliance officer went after Cerberus without any instruction from his superiors, acted on his own discretion and upon dicovery that it was an Alliance secret division passed the information to a Council Spectre, who was outside of Alliance command structure.

You tell me now, who went rogue here.

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

applehug wrote...

BigBody26 wrote...

I was playing through ME1 again and at one point Admiral Kahoku contacts me.  He explains that he found out who set his men up, the ones killed by the thresher maw.  He goes onto say that

"[/i]It was a group called Cerberus, [/b][b]an Alliance Black Ops organization..."[i]

I had heard that transmission during other playthroughs but never gave it much thought.  Hearing it this time made me stop a bit.  It would appear the OP is correct...Cerberus is most likely a part of the alliance. 

Doesn't he also explain they went rouge before than?

That's what Admiral Kahoku thought based on his belief that the Alliance would not be involved in such shady activities. In his mind Cerberus had to have gone rogue from the Alliance. He was naive.

And nobody seems to have looked at the matter this way:

Kahoku, an Alliance officer went after Cerberus without any instruction from his superiors, acted on his own discretion and upon dicovery that it was an Alliance secret division passed the information to a Council Spectre, who was outside of Alliance command structure.

You tell me now, who went rogue here.

Dun dun dun! The plot thickens.

[RayneMoon]

Actually Mass Effect Wiki says this at the very top of Cerberus's page:
"Cerberus is the codename for a black ops organization that was formerly part of the Alliance military, but which has now gone rogue. They have also been described as a pro-humanity terrorist or paramilitary group, due to their activities."
Although your theory would make sense, the Alliance can act like they went rogue so they don't have to take responsibility. It's happened before in history.

[Zulu_DFA]

What do we know about the Systems Alliance military, paramilitary and intelligence practices from the game?

1. Alliance has regular Navy and Marines.
2. Alliance employs paramilitary outfits. Like the Corsair program Jacob was involved. And Lord Darrius, remember him?
3. What happened to Lord Darius when he became a liability to the Alliance? They called a third party, a free-lancing Council Spectre, to "deal" with the problem. Plausible deniability at work. Perfect solution. In the news: Council spectre killed a bandit lord. The truth is: The Alliance shut down its secret program.
4. What is happening to Cerberus, that has apparently gone rogue? Nothing. No official or any action at all against them. A private initiative of Rear Admiral Kahoku utterly failed, and was covered up.
5. Is there an organization officially known to provide intelligence services for the Alliance? No.

Conclusion: Cerberus is Alliance's essential intelligence service with no official status, but aknowledged as such at the top level.

(and the top level of the Alliance may not be the President or Prime Minister, but a secret commitee of corporate executives, that form Alliance's budget, and pack orders at Alliance President/PrimeMinister.)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 02:39 .

[Crowwalker100]

I think the OP has a point, and there are comments in difference place to back it up.. Like Edi's comment about the Normandy.



Also if you read the Mass Effect books and comics they give a great insight into the Alliance and Cerberus. Also as to were TIM hangs out and the major corps for them.. Worth the read if you want more insight on the Mass Effect universe.

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

3. What happened to Lord Darius when he became a liability to the Alliance? They called a third party, a free-lancing Council Spectre, to "deal" with the problem. Plausible deniability at work. Perfect solution. In the news: Council spectre killed a bandit lord. The truth is: The Alliance shut down its secret program.

Wow, I had never seen that quest. Hades Gamma is a treasure trove of secret plot information, from the system names (Divine Comedy) to the planets being a possible anagram. I appreciate you bringing this up.

[Zulu_DFA]

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

3. What happened to Lord Darius when he became a liability to the Alliance? They called a third party, a free-lancing Council Spectre, to "deal" with the problem. Plausible deniability at work. Perfect solution. In the news: Council spectre killed a bandit lord. The truth is: The Alliance shut down its secret program.

Wow, I had never seen that quest. Hades Gamma is a treasure trove of secret plot information, from the system names (Divine Comedy) to the planets being a possible anagram. I appreciate you bringing this up.

Lord Darius quest is a renegade exclusive UNC mission in ME1.
http://masseffect.wi...The_Negotiation

[thedoncarnage]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And nobody seems to have looked at the matter this way:

Kahoku, an Alliance officer went after Cerberus without any instruction from his superiors, acted on his own discretion and upon dicovery that it was an Alliance secret division passed the information to a Council Spectre, who was outside of Alliance command structure.

You tell me now, who went rogue here.

Hey Zulu,

Your overall logic is sound but I doubt it will play out to be true in ME3 given the precedent set by ME's past storytelling. Not for any reason of logic but rather simple storytelling. The theory you've presented is too complex and ME is not really marketed as a universe of subterfuge. Until Splinter Cell: Systems Alliance comes out, that is.

On an aside... I'm not entirely sure where you're drawing this "by the corporations, from the corporations" idea from. It's stated pretty clearly in the Codex that the Systems Alliance was founded by an official treaty of Earth's most powerful nations. That said, the Alliance has legitimate and official political jurisdiction over the world's national governments. You can think of it like the UN if international law actually had teeth.

Likewise, Alliance officials are put into power by sovereign elections. They are not appointed by corporations. Remember that guy on the Citadel in ME1 with the Terra Firma party? He was running for parliament and wanted your vote.

The reason why all of the colonists on Feros were ExoGeni is because the corporation was funding the colony's expansion. As such ExoGeni was the biggest employer on the world. But the corporation did not have any kind of legal jurisdiction there. It's sort of like those real life small towns where the entire economy is dependent on a single huge factory. But the factory isn't the government.

This doesn't mean your theory about Cerberus = Alliance is flawed. I'm just pointing that your thinking on how the Alliance organizes itself is wrong. I'm sure corporations have an influence on the Alliance in terms of political donations, lobbying, and contracting... but heck, that happens in every real life government.

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 08 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

3. What happened to Lord Darius when he became a liability to the Alliance? They called a third party, a free-lancing Council Spectre, to "deal" with the problem. Plausible deniability at work. Perfect solution. In the news: Council spectre killed a bandit lord. The truth is: The Alliance shut down its secret program.

Wow, I had never seen that quest. Hades Gamma is a treasure trove of secret plot information, from the system names (Divine Comedy) to the planets being a possible anagram. I appreciate you bringing this up.

Lord Darius quest is a renegade exclusive UNC mission in ME1.
http://masseffect.wi...The_Negotiation

I found it. Just found it facinating. Darius was the king of Persia that helped pay for the Temple Mount to be rebuilt after his predecessor Cyrus conquered Babylon and freed all the slaves (Jews included). Plutus, the system you find Darius, is the god of wealth and a character in the Divine Comedy that is introduced the very next Canto after Cerberus.

Edit note: Another interesting coincidence, the planet's name "Nonuel" could be an anagram for "No Lune". Lune is a mathematical term. Darius could be an anagram for radius.

Modifié par Mallissin, 08 mars 2010 - 03:40 .

[Zulu_DFA]

thedoncarnage wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And nobody seems to have looked at the matter this way:

Kahoku, an Alliance officer went after Cerberus without any instruction from his superiors, acted on his own discretion and upon dicovery that it was an Alliance secret division passed the information to a Council Spectre, who was outside of Alliance command structure.

You tell me now, who went rogue here.

Hey Zulu,

Your overall logic is sound but I doubt it will play out to be true in ME3 given the precedent set by ME's past storytelling. Not for any reason of logic but rather simple storytelling. The theory you've presented is too complex and ME is not really marketed as a universe of subterfuge. Until Splinter Cell: Systems Alliance comes out, that is.

I never pretended to know where BioWare's writers will take us. Especially since some of them left the crew in 2009.

On an aside... I'm not entirely sure where you're drawing this "by the corporations, from the corporations" idea from. It's stated pretty clearly in the Codex that the Systems Alliance was founded by an official treaty of Earth's most powerful nations. That said, the Alliance has legitimate and official political jurisdiction over the world's national governments. You can think of it like the UN if international law actually had teeth.

This is not correct. the Alliance was founded by Earth's governments, then it got independent after the First Contact War. The Solar system is ruled by Earths national governments. Colonies are ruled by the Systems Alliance. (click here for details).

The "for the corporations part" is my assumption based on the fact, that the colonists are either employees or tenants of the major corporations, and even if the Alliance maintains democratic institutions, they are just a facade. The real politics are decided by the money and of those the corporations got the most, outside the Solar System at least.

Likewise, Alliance officials are put into power by soveriegn elections. They are not appointed by corporations. Remember that guy on the Citadel in ME1 with the Terra Firma party? He was running for parliament and wanted your vote.

Have you read the ME:Ascention? Saracino is there because TIM decided so. So much for your elections.

The reason why all of the colonists on Feros were ExoGeni is because the corporation was funding the colony's expansion. As such ExoGeni was the biggest employer on the world. But the corporation did not have any kind of legal jurisdiction there. It's sort of like those real life small towns where the entire economy is dependent on a single huge factory. But the factory isn't the government.

Who did have any kind of legal jurisdiction there? There was no townhall, and the only surviving cop (the woman you see and talk next to Fai Dang) is a merc hired by ExoGeni.

This doesn't mean your theory about Cerberus = Alliance is flawed. I'm just pointing that your thinking on how the Alliance organizes itself is wrong. I'm sure corporations have an influence on the Alliance in terms of political donations, lobbying, and contracting... but heck, that happens in every real life government.

We have very little "canon" information about the Alliance political structure and mechanism. So, I think my assumption is as good as any other. It does not contradict the information we have from the game. What it does contradict is the notion of paragon folk here that the US (the US version they teach you at school, not the real one) is the pinnacle of social evolution.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

3. What happened to Lord Darius when he became a liability to the Alliance? They called a third party, a free-lancing Council Spectre, to "deal" with the problem. Plausible deniability at work. Perfect solution. In the news: Council spectre killed a bandit lord. The truth is: The Alliance shut down its secret program.

Wow, I had never seen that quest. Hades Gamma is a treasure trove of secret plot information, from the system names (Divine Comedy) to the planets being a possible anagram. I appreciate you bringing this up.

Lord Darius quest is a renegade exclusive UNC mission in ME1.
http://masseffect.wi...The_Negotiation

I found it. Just found it facinating. Darius was the king of Persia that helped pay for the Temple Mount to be rebuilt after his predecessor Cyrus conquered Babylon and freed all the slaves (Jews included). Plutus, the system you find Darius, is the god of wealth and a character in the Divine Comedy that is introduced the very next Canto after Cerberus.

Mmmm. I wouldn't try to dig any deeper. I don't think there's something hidden in the palnets names. It's just mythology. It's common thing to give terrestrial things mythological and ancient history names. For example the planets in the Pax system (Noveria, Veles, Svarog) are names of gods in Slavic mythology.

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Mmmm. I wouldn't try to dig any deeper. I don't think there's something hidden in the palnets names. It's just mythology. It's common thing to give terrestrial things mythological and ancient history names. For example the planets in the Pax system (Noveria, Veles, Svarog) are names of gods in Slavic mythology.

Right, most planets in the game have an origin from somewhere EXCEPT the planets in certain systems like Hades Gamma and maybe Attican Beta.

Modifié par Mallissin, 08 mars 2010 - 03:50 .

[JThompson6577]

It would also bring meaning the the name Cerberus. Cerberus was a three headed dog. The Organizations three leaders come from Government, Military and Private Industry powers.

[Alneverus]

Schroing wrote...

That makes no more sense than Cerberus just killing him because they're a terrorist ****ing organisation and he's trying to stop them.

It does if he offered information about Cerberus to the Shadow Broker. That would amount to treason in regards to the Alliance and as a major security risk to Cerberus. The less information people have the more misinformation they can spread.

[GenericPlayer2]

If they are part of the Alliance, they must answer to the Alliance. But since they don't they are not part of it.



What the OP is suggesting is that Cerberus is the Sci Fi equivalent of the East India Trading Co.?

[AM50]

Very good post. That would make an interesting ME3 storyline. Backroom dirty politics.

[applehug]

JThompson6577 wrote...

It would also bring meaning the the name Cerberus. Cerberus was a three headed dog. The Organizations three leaders come from Government, Military and Private Industry powers.

No it's not. The Mass Relay is the solar system is named Charon. And before first contact someone said they would need a "Cerberus" to protect Charon.

[JThompson6577]

applehug wrote...

JThompson6577 wrote...

It would also bring meaning the the name Cerberus. Cerberus was a three headed dog. The Organizations three leaders come from Government, Military and Private Industry powers.

No it's not. The Mass Relay is the solar system is named Charon. And before first contact someone said they would need a "Cerberus" to protect Charon.

I know the in game reason, but out of game, the symbolism of the organization being a meeting of military, political and economic human-centric interests would lend itself to giving them the name Cerberus.