798 réponses à ce sujet

[thedoncarnage]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I never pretended to know where BioWare's writers will take us. Especially since some of them left the crew in 2009.

And I never said you pretended to know. What I said is that your theory about the Alliance's influence on Cerberus is plausible but given ME's paragon-wins-all precedent its probably not going to happen. You need to learn the difference between someone debating you and simply conversing.

This is not correct. the Allince was founded by Earth's governments, then it got independent after the First Contact War. The Solar system is ruled by Earths national governments. Colonies are ruled by the Systems Alliance. (click here for details).

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. The Systems Alliance is only independent of Earth's governments in the way that the UN is independent of sovereign states. Earth and the colonies all have seats on the Alliance parliament. As such Earth does have an indirect role in how the colonies are run, albiet how big a say is unknown because we dont know how seats are alotted. But it would be a safe bet that Earth's represenatives are likely a dominating political force.

Also, since parliamentarians are voted into power by their constituency this means the people of Earth do have a say in how the Alliance is run, in a republican fashion.

The "for the corporations part" is my assumption based on the fact, that the colonists are either employees or tenants of the major corporations, and even if the Alliance maintains democratic institutions, they are just a facade. The real politics are decided by the money and of those the corporations got the most, outside the Solar System at least.

Like I said in my previous post, I have no doubt that corporations influence elections but that doesn't mean they are the real rulers. No more so than in real life at least. Are there egregious examples of corporate interests influencing policy? Of course. But this isn't the dominating factor in an election. If it was, there wouldn't be such a partisan split in the US... the corporations could simply bend all public opinion to their will.

Maybe ExoGeni is a political outlet for the people of tiny Feros, but do you think the millions of people on Terra Nova and Eden Prime fall under the employ of a select few companies?

Have you read the ME:Ascention? Saracino is there because TIM decided so. So much for your elections.

No, I havent read Ascension. But I know the plot. And again I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Saracino's rival in the primaries was assassinated by Cerberus... ok... and how exactly does this prove the Alliance is secretly run by corporations?

Who did have any kind of legal jurisdiction there? There was no townhall, and the only surviving cop (the woman you see and taltk next to Fai Dang) is a merc hired by ExoGeni.

The Alliance government would obviously have jurisdiction. The problem is that the colony was too small to warrant setting up a police force, much less court system. But you can bet that if some major crime happened there Alliance investigators would be all over it... not ExoGeni.

In some parts of the US there are still areas that don't have official townships despite a local residential population. If a crime occurs special investigators from the state level have to drive in.

We have very little "canon" information about the Alliance political structure and mechanism. So, I think my assumption is as good as any other. It does not contradict the information we have from the game. What it does contradict is the notion of paragon folk here that the US (and the US version they teach you at school at that, not the real one) is the pinnacle of social evolution.

If you consider the Codex as truthful and canon, then yes, we actually have a lot of information on how the Alliance is structured. Since this is a game that doesn't make a habit of lying to the player I think we can assume it's truthful. (This wouldn't be the case in Fallout for example, where characters routinely lie to the player.)

As for the US/paragon/education tangent... I like your style. It's good to see independent thinkers on the internet instead of blatant indoctrination by the left or right... but that's not what we're here to discuss. The former BioWare employee you linked obviously understands the realities of politics but even he doesn't mention corporate influence as a dominating factor.

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 08 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[FataliTensei]

Uhh didn't Kahoku tell you in the first game that they went rouge?

[kmcd5722]

FataliTensei wrote...

Uhh didn't Kahoku tell you in the first game that they went rouge?

That's what I thought, too.  And Shepard joining Cerberus has really nothing to do with him leaving the Alliance, nor the Cerberus going rogue.   I understand the theory behind the OP's post, but really, Cerberus left the Alliance, it did indeed go rogue.  If you read Ascension, it also mentions how Cerberus and the Alliance are separate now, as TIM had to implant his men in the Ascension project because the Alliance had better funding and research, implying that Cerberus is separate and needs its own funding.

Its also why Captain Anderson doesn't talk to you either. Or Kaiden/Ashley/Tali (right away)

[Zulu_DFA]

Alneverus wrote...

Schroing wrote...

That makes no more sense than Cerberus just killing him because they're a terrorist ****ing organisation and he's trying to stop them.

It does if he offered information about Cerberus to the Shadow Broker. That would amount to treason in regards to the Alliance and as a major security risk to Cerberus. The less information people have the more misinformation they can spread.

Oh, fu.....
I totally forgot about that! Updating my earlier post:

And nobody seems to have looked at the matter this way:

Kahoku, an Alliance officer went after Cerberus without any instruction from his superiors, acted on his own discretion and upon discovery that it was an Alliance secret division passed the information to a Council Spectre, who was outside of Alliance command structure. And he struck a deal that involved a transfer of informarion on said Alliance secret division to the Shadow Broker, whose allegiance is not friendly to the Alliance in the very least.

You tell me now, who went rogue here.

kmcd5722 wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

Uhh didn't Kahoku tell you in the first game that they went rouge?

That's what I thought, too.  And Shepard joining Cerberus has really nothing to do with him leaving the Alliance, nor the Cerberus going rogue.   I understand the theory behind the OP's post, but really, Cerberus left the Alliance, it did indeed go rogue.  If you read Ascension, it also mentions how Cerberus and the Alliance are separate now, as TIM had to implant his men in the Ascension project because the Alliance had better funding and research, implying that Cerberus is separate and needs its own funding.

Its also why Captain Anderson doesn't talk to you either. Or Kaiden/Ashley/Tali (right away)

What does frakkin' Tali have to do with this?! AAArgh!!! Can we keep her out of at least this thread, please?

What I am saying is that the Systems Alliance sturture is decentralised, flexible and modular. And some divisions&agencies are getting their funds not from "federal budget", but from corporate accounts directly. And some divisions&agencies not knowing what other divisions&agencies are doing. There is also some rivalry among different divisions&agencies. And Cerberus, being the most secret and engaging in the most politically and ethically controversial activities, maintains such low public profile, that even some rear admirals don't know about its existence. To keep such a low profile Cerberus has to use espionage tactics even on other Alliance divisions&agencies, so that members of those divisions&agencies wouldn't even know about their involvement. This is called "security protocol".

I am also saying, that if the people who fund Cerberus and the people who run the Alliance are the same, that necessarily makes Cerberus an integral element in the political-economic system, known as the Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[Zulu_DFA]

thedoncarnage wrote...
Earth and the colonies all have seats on the Alliance parliament.

Where did you get this from?

To my knowledge, the SA Parliament's structure is explained nowhere. All we know is that there are elections, there are "spacer seats" and there is an elaborate census the "citizen" is required to meet to be able to cast his vote for someone running for one of those.

It's safe to assume, that major colonies (like Eden Prime and Terra Nova) have lion's share of seats. But it's unclear what are exactly the Parliament's responsibilities and how seriously its acts are taken outside Arcturus Station. Hell, we don't even know how the Ambassadors to the Citadel are appointed. Are they dirrectly elected by the Parliament, or there is some sort of "Foreign Office"? In any case, Udina seems to be not giving a crap about the Alliance, although he rants a lot about Humanity's interests.

There is nothing indicating that Earth has any political say. Earth is a major consumer of colonial industrial and probably agricultural output, which is controlled by the corporations, that fund the colonies.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 09:54 .

[Kristofer1]

Cerberus = John Travolta in Swordfish. Practically identical. In this case its all of humanity it claims to protect versus the US

[Zulu_DFA]

Kristofer1 wrote...

Cerberus = John Travolta in Swordfish. Practically identical. In this case its all of humanity it claims to protect versus the US

Looks like a good comparison.

Yet, TIM doesn't have to rob a bank to get his funding...

[thedoncarnage]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

thedoncarnage wrote...
Earth and the colonies all have seats on the Alliance parliament.

Where did you get this from?

To my knowledge, the SA Parliament's structure is explained nowhere. All we know is that there are elections, there are "spacer seats" and there is an elaborate census the "citizen" is required to meet to be able to cast his vote for someone running for one of those.

(snip for lack of relevance here)

There is nothing indicating that Earth has any political say. Earth is a major consumer of colonial industrial and probably agricultural output, which is controlled by the corporations, that fund the colonies.

This is from the Earth codex page: "Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance."

How much more clear can it get?

But beyond that it's common sense, Zulu. Do you honestly think Earth's politicians
would let the colonies have complete and utter self-determination? It
would result in an eventual civil war between Earth in the colonies.
And the codex affirms it.

And by logical reasoning if Saracino is running for a "spacer" seat that would imply there are "colonist" and "Earth" seats available as well.

[FataliTensei]

kmcd5722 wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

Uhh didn't Kahoku tell you in the first game that they went rouge?

That's what I thought, too.  And Shepard joining Cerberus has really nothing to do with him leaving the Alliance, nor the Cerberus going rogue.   I understand the theory behind the OP's post, but really, Cerberus left the Alliance, it did indeed go rogue.  If you read Ascension, it also mentions how Cerberus and the Alliance are separate now, as TIM had to implant his men in the Ascension project because the Alliance had better funding and research, implying that Cerberus is separate and needs its own funding.

Its also why Captain Anderson doesn't talk to you either. Or Kaiden/Ashley/Tali (right away)

Yeah if you read the novels you find out Cerberus is defintely rouge, TIM is introduced in Ascencion and you get a look at his thoughts on a few things, and I doubt he lies in his own mind, Cerberus went rouge, and while conspiracy theories are fun, you can't deny facts.

Now connections between certain members of the alliance and other organizations is still up for conjecture. We have no idea who could really be a cerberus agent until they are revealed as such.

[FataliTensei]

kmcd5722 wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

Uhh didn't Kahoku tell you in the first game that they went rouge?

That's what I thought, too.  And Shepard joining Cerberus has really nothing to do with him leaving the Alliance, nor the Cerberus going rogue.   I understand the theory behind the OP's post, but really, Cerberus left the Alliance, it did indeed go rogue.  If you read Ascension, it also mentions how Cerberus and the Alliance are separate now, as TIM had to implant his men in the Ascension project because the Alliance had better funding and research, implying that Cerberus is separate and needs its own funding.

Its also why Captain Anderson doesn't talk to you either. Or Kaiden/Ashley/Tali (right away)

Yeah if you read the novels you find out Cerberus is defintely rouge, TIM is introduced in Ascencion and you get a look at his thoughts on a few things, and I doubt he lies in his own mind, Cerberus went rouge, and while conspiracy theories are fun, you can't deny facts.

Now connections between certain members of the alliance and other organizations is still up for conjecture. We have no idea who could really be a cerberus agent until they are revealed as such.

[OverlordNexas]

I don't think Cerberus is still part of the Alliance. Do you think TIM is the kind of guy who is just following orders? That said I do believe that Cerberus has a lot of unofficial support from high ranking Alliance members. I still think Udina is a Cerberus supporter.

[Aradace]

BigBody26 wrote...

Why would the alliance allow you to kill so many Cerberus operatives and shut down so many of their experiments in ME1 then? If your idea is correct though, I still hope we get a chance to shut Cerberus down, then TIM reveals the truth to us(that Udina knew about it all along), then we get to kill Udina! Oh the satisfaction that would bring.

I certainly hope that what the OP says isnt the case.  Ive wanted to get away from the alliance every since ME1...I HATE the alliance.  Which ties in to what I've quoted above.  If I have the option, I want to tell the Alliance to go f*** itself and help Cerberus.  Yes, I know TIM has ulterior motives but I respect him for that.  Of the two, I'd rather see the Alliance "shut down" than Cerberus and given the option to do so, that's exactly what Im going to do.  Even on the side mission where you have to choose which missile to shut down.  Normally, I'd be all about keeping "tactical" stability by saving the industrial district and saying "screw the colonists, they knew the risks when they signed on..."  However, the moment I saw the text of "Save the Industrial district and protect Alliance interests" I automatically opted for Saving the colonists just because that's one more f*** you I get to throw the Alliance's way.

Just like the data you have the choice of transmitting.  I NEVER transmit the data to the Alliance.  Most of the time I keep it for myself in hopes that I can use it as "leverage" against TIM in ME3 if need be.  That way, I can hopefully at least cover my own ass, even if just a little. 

In closing, if the OPs theory is correct, (as unlikely as it is but you never know) then hell yea I'd be all about shutting Cerberus down simply because they were Alliance all along and never bothered to say anything about it.  Adding yet more fuel to my already roaring flame of "Anti Alliance" antics lol.

[Akeashar]

Well, we already know that the Codex isn't 100% accurate, except from the viewpoint of who is writing the Codex. In ME2, the Codex entries follow the byline of the Turian Councillor regarding Sovereign and the Reapers, while if they followed what the player knew was true, they'd be completely different.
I can see, and agree, with a large amount of the viewpoints here. Theres always been something off with the lack of activity against Cerberus.  Still boggles the mind that you can take a Cerberus branded ship, with Cerberus branded crew, land on the Citadel and not have anyone raise an eyebrow, and have Anderson and Hackett still be happy chatting you and having your ship go places.

Modifié par Akeashar, 08 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[The Governator]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Cerberus as the Alliance's Special Activities Division?

Interesting idea. I highly doubt that you're right, but interesting all the same.

It is possible, but I agree, not likely.  That is an awful lot of collateral damage to absorb in order to have a human-centric branch of government that the Alliance can disavow while still meeting their clandestine goals.  It could be necessary to enable the Alliance to have huge operations (otherwise covert operations would be best), but with the Alliance and Cerberus always butting heads it seems grossly inefficient...but we are not made aware of the Alliance leader's identity.  What we have been shown is that Anderson/Udina are council members but that does not make him the top leader of the Alliance. 

The Alliance would have to have a LOT at stake for a clandestine organization like Cerberus to be so big and be portrayed in theory and in practice to be its enemy in most ways that count.  Closer to home it would be like the CIA getting a huge military wing and being declared an enemy of the state only so that the CIA could carry out big operations against enemies of the US while maintaining the US' plausible deniability and thereby avoiding political fallout for the more unsavory missions.  That would be a huge 'ends justifies the means' situation and I do not subscribe to that.

[MikeFL25]

Interesting theory.  A lot of it makes sense, but I think Cerberus has now detatched itself from the Alliance.

Its one thing to have bad blood for another organization which is part of the same group (CIA-FBI rivalry as an example) but its another thing to declare that rival agency an "enemy".

Cerberus did start off as an Alliance Black-Ops agency, that much we know from ME1. Also, it seemed like Cerberus only broke away from the Alliance right before or during the events of ME1 (I can't remember what mission, but it said something about Cerberus recently going dark and ignoring Alliance commands.)

It would make sense that Cerberus suggest the schematics for the Normandy....its a stealth vehicle that would allow Cerberus operatives to execute stealth missions.

I thing the TC has a lot of valid points and a lot of the lore matches up. However, I myself think that Cerberus is no longer part of the Alliance, and is now its own "rouge state".

Modifié par MikeFL25, 08 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[jklinders]

According to the codex and the Wiki both, the Alliance receives its funding from the various nations of Earth (who are not yet in a one world government but are not stupid enough to impoverish themselves piecemeal for colonization) not big corporations. The swift response to the First Contact War(which the Earth governments were handwringing over) gave the Alliance a great deal of legitimacy and the right to serve as Humanity's voice.



As for the corporation's relation to the Alliance, I saw no codex on that, but one could speculate that the corporations get to do whatever they want on their own planets(think Noveria) the Alliance provides protection and allows privacy and gets to share in the findings.



I don't doubt that Cerberus was once part of the Alliance. the question that nags me is if they still secretly were, why would TIM not tell Shepard? Seems strange that he wouldn't seeing as that would give a better chance at proving loyalty.

While Admiral Kohoku may not know the truth you can be damn sure Udina/Aderson would. After all they are at the top of the hierarchy. Interesting idea though, but Cerberus is acting on it's own unless Human councilor or TIM says otherwise, and they don't.

[Zulu_DFA]

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is from the Earth codex page: "Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance."

How much more clear can it get?

But beyond that it's common sense, Zulu. Do you honestly think Earth's politicians
would let the colonies have complete and utter self-determination? It
would result in an eventual civil war between Earth in the colonies.
And the codex affirms it.

And by logical reasoning if Saracino is running for a "spacer" seat that would imply there are "colonist" and "Earth" seats available as well.

Look at the "timeline" section:

2149 - Alliance Charter. Earth governments form SA.
2157 - 1st Contact War. Earth goverments drop the ball while SA takes decisive action against Turians.  (SA = independent.)
2160 - SA Parliament formed on Arcturus Station. (Quite a few colonies are already there on the garden worlds)

So NO. I don't think there are any "Earth seats". And there is nothing the Earth polititians can do about it. And the "civil war" is impossible, because it's economically undesirable. As simple as that. It's 22nd century, not 18th!
Besides, it is explained there.

However, Earth has its "say" but not as you understand it. It's not political "say", overlook or guidance. It's pure economy.  First of all there is that enormous consumer demand of colonial products. Then, the corporate executives I am constantly talking about are most likely Earth's citizens, but it's only their place of residence, not something they feel like adhere to. Corporations would have overtaken modern day political decision making long ago, but they can't, because there are too many people to trample on here on Earth, and there is this pesky anti-trust legislation, that prevents corporations from merging into one single mega-corp and effectively establishing an orwellian perverted version of communism all over the globe with the executive board acting like "the party". But I doubt there is something that can hold any grip on corporations' greedy practices when they get off Earth. In the ME Universe corporations are up here, Earth is down there.

Systems Alliance is not a state, not a country, there are no traditions, no customs, no habits, that heavily influence Earth's politics and legal practices. The Alliance is... well, an alliance. Of Human colonies, that are 95% corporate property and 5% private property of corporate emloyees and tenants. As such, it is ruled not by law, but by economic expediency. It's hard to comprehend from the modern point of view, but that's sci-fi for you. It's 175 years from now in the future and it's space colonization we are talking about.

And whatever are the functions of the Parlianment and other political institutions of the Alliance, they are stricly defined by pure economic necessity. Which renders even the very notion of a "rogue" organization quite irrelevant.

ALL OF THAT IS JUST MY PERSONAL TAKE OF IT.

jklinders wrote...
The question that nags me is if they still secretly were, why would TIM not tell Shepard? Seems strange that he wouldn't seeing as that would give a better chance at proving loyalty.

Info striclty on the "need-to-know basis". Shepard cooperates, and he doesn't need to know. Why should TIM treat Shepard any better than Miranda or any other agent? Let everybody (loyalists and enemies alike) below the "top level" think that Cerberus is "rogue". In case an agent is caught (by STG, for instance), or defects, he's got nothing to spill. Intelligence agencies are kept in business not by loyalty, but by security protocols.

The question that nags me is where the heck is the "official" intelligence agency for the Alliance? It must have one. Unless it officially maintains that all the intelligence services are provided by the military.

For what we know, Anderson may be an operative of the military intelligence wing, as the special forces are usually closely connected to military intelligence. And he is unsure about Cerberus, because it used to be a rival agency outside of the Alliance's military command structure, then "slipped off the grid". Doesn't mean they've necessarily gone "rogue", and Anderson seems to understand that (unlike Kahoku). That's why he uses as max caution as he can. And of course he wouldn't talk about those sensitive matters to Shepard. Because Shepard, being 1st Human Spectre and all, isn't the hub of the universe. He is a middle-ranking officer by the start of ME1, and his "security clearence" in the Alliance remains low, especially after he joined the Spectres.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[jklinders]

Zulu, are you saying that if you are recruiting an extremely dangerous person who has shut down several of you projects practically single handed you are not going to give that person the on piece of info that would make them trust you?



Anderson not knowing about Cerberus makes no sense. he is the Human representative to the council(Udina is ticked about the affiliation with Cerberus if he is councilor). Either Cerberus is part of the Alliance AND it's top leaders are aware of it, or Cerberus is not part of the Alliance. Also remember that every Alliance affiliated person behaved as if Cerberus was behind the collector abductions. That is an awful lot of wasted time just to put on a sham. Politicians may not care how much cash and time is wasted at times but top level military types are usually a different matter. Especially when they do not have their hands on the purse strings.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]jklinders wrote...

Zulu, are you saying that if you are recruiting an extremely dangerous person who has shut down several of you projects practically single handed you are not going to give that person the on piece of info that would make them trust you?
[/quote]
That's exactly what I am saying. 1st, even if I tell that person the truth, the person might think that I am lying to gain the person's loyalty. Therefore there is absolutely no sense telling that person anything except direct instructions and general "we're here to save the Galaxy" motivation rant.

[quote]
Anderson not knowing about Cerberus makes no sense. he is the Human representative to the council(Udina is ticked about the affiliation with Cerberus if he is councilor). Either Cerberus is part of the Alliance AND it's top leaders are aware of it, or Cerberus is not part of the Alliance. Also remember that every Alliance affiliated person behaved as if Cerberus was behind the collector abductions. That is an awful lot of wasted time just to put on a sham. Politicians may not care how much cash and time is wasted at times but top level military types are usually a different matter. Especially when they do not have their hands on the purse strings.[/quote]
[/quote]

Anderson and Udina aren't "top leaders". They are functionaries. The highest Alliance men we know of from the game are Admiral Hacket whom we only hear the voice of, and, possibly (if my theory is true), The Illusive Man whom we call on the quantum holophone. And even they are not "the top".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 08:53 .

[Kressida]

JThompson6577 wrote...

applehug wrote...

JThompson6577 wrote...

It would also bring meaning the the name Cerberus. Cerberus was a three headed dog. The Organizations three leaders come from Government, Military and Private Industry powers.

No it's not. The Mass Relay is the solar system is named Charon. And before first contact someone said they would need a "Cerberus" to protect Charon.

I know the in game reason, but out of game, the symbolism of the organization being a meeting of military, political and economic human-centric interests would lend itself to giving them the name Cerberus.

Personally, I love the simple symbolism of the name itself.

Cerberus is the three-headed dog that guarded the entrance to Hades. The 'cerberus' reference on Wikipedia is great, "Most occurrences in ancient literature revolve around the basis of the threat of Cerberus being overcome to allow a living being access to the underworld."

Charon, where humans first discovered the Mass Relay, is a Greek name for the operator of the ferry that brought the newly dead over the River Acheron into Hades.

And then the name of our main protagonist... Reaper.

Even Shepard's name is an interesting choice.

Just... interesting symbolism. I'm not necessarily suggesting anything by pointing out the meanings behind some of the names -- but I do lean toward the side that the Alliance looks at Cerberus as an easy outlet for their dirty work.

"Strength for Cerberus is strength for humanity" -- essentially the ends justify the means and a strong humanity = strong alliance. They might be a rogue organization that is no longer "officially" part of the alliance, but that doesn't mean that the alliance doesn't look to reap the benefits of their shady tactics -- especially when some members of the alliance are supplying funds to Cerberus.

However, Cerberus also kinda reminds me of the conspiracy ideas about the Illuminati and NWO. I can't point to anything specific at the moment, but that's the impression I get.

Modifié par Kressida, 08 mars 2010 - 08:52 .

[Kristofer1]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

Cerberus = John Travolta in Swordfish. Practically identical. In this case its all of humanity it claims to protect versus the US

Looks like a good comparison.

Yet, TIM doesn't have to rob a bank to get his funding...

True to a point. who is to say that there have been no cerberus missions to rob aliens? they do send you on missions to steal crap from merc groups. but cerberus reminds me of john travoltas little group in swordfish like no other. obviously  cerberus does more stuff but the basic line of thought between the two is nearly indistinguishable. 

[jklinders]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]jklinders wrote...

Zulu, are you saying that if you are recruiting an extremely dangerous person who has shut down several of you projects practically single handed you are not going to give that person the on piece of info that would make them trust you?
[/quote]
That's exactly what I am saying. 1st, even if I tell that person the truth, the person might think that I am lying to gain the person's loyalty. Therefore there is absolutely no sense telling that person anything except direct instructions and general "we're here to save the Galaxy" motivation rant.

[quote]
Anderson not knowing about Cerberus makes no sense. he is the Human representative to the council(Udina is ticked about the affiliation with Cerberus if he is councilor). Either Cerberus is part of the Alliance AND it's top leaders are aware of it, or Cerberus is not part of the Alliance. Also remember that every Alliance affiliated person behaved as if Cerberus was behind the collector abductions. That is an awful lot of wasted time just to put on a sham. Politicians may not care how much cash and time is wasted at times but top level military types are usually a different matter. Especially when they do not have their hands on the purse strings.[/quote]
[/quote]

Anderson and Udina aren't "top leaders". They are functionaries. The highest Alliance men we know of from the game are Admiral Hacket (whom we only hear the voice of), and, possibly (if my theory is true), The Illusive Man whom we call on the quantum holophone. And even they are not "the top".[/quote]

This is where I agree to disagree with you.

While you may be right about Anderson/udina(inb fact you likely are) there is nothing to say you are right about anything else. the alliance military behavior on Horizon specifically and Cerberus in general makes no sense if there are higher ups anywhere in the Alliance that are aware Cerberus is part of them. Too many resources wasted searching for shadows when you already know who is casting them.

Again militaries do not like wasteing resources and sending a high level Alliance operative to Horizon to investigate Cerberus involvement in abductions is like siccing your guard dog on yourself. It just does not make sense.

My reasons for disagreeing come down to this. We are both speculating based on not given or incomplete inforation. Both are equally possible. Cerberus being outside the Alliance is simpler. Until I am given more facts from the writers, I am invoking Occams Razor to come to my conclusion.

Not saying your wrong, I just don't have enough hard fact to say you are right.

[Zulu_DFA]

jklinders wrote...
Until I am given more facts from the writers, I am invoking Occams Razor to come to my conclusion.

Not saying your wrong, I just don't have enough hard fact to say you are right.

Yeah, the BioWare writers do a good job at keeping things up in the air, as ambigous as possible, and making us think things that suit one's mind better. Also convenient for them to come up with plot twits and be able to take the story wherever they want in the sequel. Let's just hope they won't mess up totally, as some troubling signs in ME2 indicate it is quite possible .

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 mars 2010 - 09:11 .

[Schneidend]

Interesting theory, and quite plausible, I'd say. I think Jacob's little chat about the Corsair initiative kind of foreshadows the Alliance's willingness to have "outside" organizations break the law in its stead. Well, all governments are willing to do this, of course, but the Corsair talk sets the precedent for the Alliance to be one such realistic government.

Modifié par Schneidend, 08 mars 2010 - 09:12 .

[jklinders]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jklinders wrote...
Until I am given more facts from the writers, I am invoking Occams Razor to come to my conclusion.

Not saying your wrong, I just don't have enough hard fact to say you are right.

Yeah, the BioWare writers do a good job at keeping things up in the air, as ambigous as possible, and making us think things that suit one's mind better. Also convenient for them to come up with plot twits and be able to take the story wherever they want in the sequel. Let's just hope they won't mess up totally, as some troubling signs in ME2 indicate it is quite possible .

Things have to be kind of vague. I am presuming that both a paragon and renegade approach will be equally viable. What will be different is how the galaxy looks.Human dominated or all aliens(and humans) united.

I just hope I am wrong about TIM trying to grow his own reaper. Taking down a chain smoking reaper is NOT something I want to do in ME3.