798 réponses à ce sujet

[kreite]

 they split off and then they were rouge

[Zulu_DFA]

kreite wrote...

 they split off and then they were rouge

*sigh*

That happened when? Before they co-developed the Normandy, or after?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 avril 2010 - 04:05 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Bumped in light of Kasumi's loyalty mission. Possible link indeed.

Why do you think Kasumi's data have Cerberus connection?

Actually it a bit dissapointed me, because all this "Alliance's dirty secret, that may make them look bad in the eyes of the Council" is pretty irrelevant in the all-human new Council scenario. They should have formulated it as "... look generally bad..."

Anyway, where was my "upload to Cerberus" option?

Well I think the possible link to Cerberus may lie in the Reaper file that is on the Greybox.  The Alliance knowing of the Reaper threat itself would not put it in danger.  However we do know that some Reaper tech was adapted when Cerberus made their own version of the Normandy, and who knows if such tech was adapted into cybernetics although that is not a theory I am necessarily onboard on. 

Now it could be that the Alliance could be witholding information about the Reapers from the other council races.  But why would that matter?  The primary reason I think it might be a Cerberus connection is because it was primarily Alliance warships that destroyed Sovereign and as we see from the state of the Citadel the humans seem to have taken control of C-Sec.  So in that case humans, most likely Alliance personal would have been handling the cleanup.  The image itself I do not believe is Sovereign, but one possibility is that it could be the Dormant Reaper that the Reaper IFF mission takes place on, although the picture itself doesn't show the exact backdrop necessary.  But if that is the case then the Alliance knew about it and they had their Cerberus arm research it.  If not it still leaves the problem of Sovereigns remains.  It seems like the Alliance could have "removed" the remains and given it to Cerberus in order to hide it from the races so Humanity itself could benefit from whatever research could be gained.

A lot of this is conjecture but unless the data pointed to say evidence that the Alliance somehow knew of Reaper threat before Sovereign, or if there is some unseen data that would say that the Alliance wanted a powergrab all along (but that wouldn't have much to do with the Reaper picture) then one of the only things that would pit the Alliance against the Council would be evidence that the Alliance either works with Cerberus, or if Cerberus is still apart of the Alliance since Cerberus acts against Council regulations and that would make the Alliance a threat to the other species if it was revealed that both Cerberus/Alliance work together. 

Also in the case of an all-human/human led council it would still cause problems with the other species because it would most definately seem like Humanity is taking advantage of their place and are ready to take complete control over the species in Citadel space.  With at first disregarding Council laws in their actions and research (though it is also likely that some of the other Species have governments doing the same thing) may cause panic among the other races who in that situation do not have as much power as they had, but still have quite a bit of power.   You could expect the backlash coming mainly from the Turians who still harbor some feelings against the Humans for the first contact war and the Citadel Space power grab and possibly the Asari depending on whether or not they think the Humans are stronger or if the Turians are stronger.  The Salarians are an unknown in this matter as I feel that their leadership would remain cautious in the early going.  

But again I do not know what could be more damaging to the Alliance in the eyes of Citadel Space leadership than a Cerberus connection, or having Cerberus be apart of them. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Bumped in light of Kasumi's loyalty mission. Possible link indeed.

Why do you think Kasumi's data have Cerberus connection?

Actually it a bit dissapointed me, because all this "Alliance's dirty secret, that may make them look bad in the eyes of the Council" is pretty irrelevant in the all-human new Council scenario. They should have formulated it as "... look generally bad..."

Anyway, where was my "upload to Cerberus" option?

Well I think the possible link to Cerberus may lie in the Reaper file that is on the Greybox.  The Alliance knowing of the Reaper threat itself would not put it in danger.  However we do know that some Reaper tech was adapted when Cerberus made their own version of the Normandy, and who knows if such tech was adapted into cybernetics although that is not a theory I am necessarily onboard on. 

Now it could be that the Alliance could be witholding information about the Reapers from the other council races.  But why would that matter?  The primary reason I think it might be a Cerberus connection is because it was primarily Alliance warships that destroyed Sovereign and as we see from the state of the Citadel the humans seem to have taken control of C-Sec.  So in that case humans, most likely Alliance personal would have been handling the cleanup.  The image itself I do not believe is Sovereign, but one possibility is that it could be the Dormant Reaper that the Reaper IFF mission takes place on, although the picture itself doesn't show the exact backdrop necessary.  But if that is the case then the Alliance knew about it and they had their Cerberus arm research it.  If not it still leaves the problem of Sovereigns remains.  It seems like the Alliance could have "removed" the remains and given it to Cerberus in order to hide it from the races so Humanity itself could benefit from whatever research could be gained.

A lot of this is conjecture but unless the data pointed to say evidence that the Alliance somehow knew of Reaper threat before Sovereign, or if there is some unseen data that would say that the Alliance wanted a powergrab all along (but that wouldn't have much to do with the Reaper picture) then one of the only things that would pit the Alliance against the Council would be evidence that the Alliance either works with Cerberus, or if Cerberus is still apart of the Alliance since Cerberus acts against Council regulations and that would make the Alliance a threat to the other species if it was revealed that both Cerberus/Alliance work together. 

Also in the case of an all-human/human led council it would still cause problems with the other species because it would most definately seem like Humanity is taking advantage of their place and are ready to take complete control over the species in Citadel space.  With at first disregarding Council laws in their actions and research (though it is also likely that some of the other Species have governments doing the same thing) may cause panic among the other races who in that situation do not have as much power as they had, but still have quite a bit of power.   You could expect the backlash coming mainly from the Turians who still harbor some feelings against the Humans for the first contact war and the Citadel Space power grab and possibly the Asari depending on whether or not they think the Humans are stronger or if the Turians are stronger.  The Salarians are an unknown in this matter as I feel that their leadership would remain cautious in the early going.  

But again I do not know what could be more damaging to the Alliance in the eyes of Citadel Space leadership than a Cerberus connection, or having Cerberus be apart of them. 

Hmmm. Interesting.

Also that info might have been stolen from Cerberus directly, since it is said that Kasumi did steal something from them... And that also renders the "upload" option unnecessary. Guess, I'm going to destroy the data.

Also, there is the unresolved issue about the whole Klendagon's Great Rift research, that TIM admitted to be overtaken by Cerberus from the Alliance... And, mainly, he said, they also found the weapon, that knocked out that Reaper from another star system! Looks like Shepard will finally get his "bigger guns". If, of course, he sticks to the program...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 06:01 .

[Srau]

This is Star Trek's Section 31 all over again i say !!

[VampireCommando]

Yeah but thats pritty much exactly what cerberus was, a sort of speical forces/ intellegence agency, then they went rogue, because even if they were still part of the alliance in black ops and stuff, why would the council say they are a sworn enemy, and if they were still part of the alliance why would they have such extremist views towards aliens, it just wouldnt make sense sorry but as intreasting as your theory is i just cant see it beeing correct.

[Zulu_DFA]

VampireCommando wrote...

Yeah but thats pritty much exactly what cerberus was, a sort of speical forces/ intellegence agency, then they went rogue, because even if they were still part of the alliance in black ops and stuff, why would the council say they are a sworn enemy, and if they were still part of the alliance why would they have such extremist views towards aliens, it just wouldnt make sense sorry but as intreasting as your theory is i just cant see it beeing correct.

Cerberus = alien hostile! says the Council.

Wow, they are rogue! And we are clean! says the Allianace.

Mwa-ha-ha-ha!!! says the Illusive Man.

[nremies1]

You know, your theory makes sense, Zulu. And I was wondering how so many people from the Alliance end up working for the secret paramilitary organization that has such a nasty reputation and is officially 'rogue.' Is there a recruiting office somewhere?



If Cerberus is the SAD of the Systems Alliance it makes sense that there are people within the Alliance military who point them in the right direction to get signed up. The ease with which all these people end up joining Cerberus is strange if they're not still linked at the hip with the Alliance military.

[Zulu_DFA]

nremies1 wrote...

The ease with which all these people end up joining Cerberus...

All these best people. Don't forget that part.

[Gabey5]

-the game says it went rogue

-the novels tell us they went rogue

-bioware tells us they went rogue





they are rouge

[Zulu_DFA]

Gabey5 wrote...

-the game says it went rogue
-the novels tell us they went rogue
-bioware tells us they went rogue

It's called the "suspense".

[nremies1]

I further wonder if Alliance personnel who want to join Cerberus are sniffed out by Cerberus handlers within the Alliance, or if Cerberus has its handlers pick people they think are interested but haven't displayed any outward interest yet.



Either way, recruiting from former Alliance people is very risky...if I were part of Alliance Intelligence I'd definitely be trying to find those Cerberus handlers and either interrogate them or plant somebody within Cerberus. The fact that they appear not to have done either - which I assume is the case because Cerberus has plenty of ex-Alliance people in its ranks - suggests to me that the Alliance isn't particularly worried about it, or somebody very high up in the Alliance ranks who knows of this theoretical Cerberus-Alliance connection is actively dissuading any such investigations. That probably wouldn't be hard to do and still keep the real reasons for it quiet.



You'd think that at some point Cerberus has attempted to woo an Alliance Marine who would have nothing to do with them...given how many people Cerberus has I just can't see them being 100% successful in turning people to their cause...which again, they have to do even if they are still sort of married to the Alliance given the prevailing public opinion of the group.



It's a very interesting topic!

[Zulu_DFA]

nremies1 wrote...

I further wonder if Alliance personnel who want to join Cerberus are sniffed out by Cerberus handlers within the Alliance, or if Cerberus has its handlers pick people they think are interested but haven't displayed any outward interest yet.

Either way, recruiting from former Alliance people is very risky...if I were part of Alliance Intelligence I'd definitely be trying to find those Cerberus handlers and either interrogate them or plant somebody within Cerberus. The fact that they appear not to have done either - which I assume is the case because Cerberus has plenty of ex-Alliance people in its ranks - suggests to me that the Alliance isn't particularly worried about it, or somebody very high up in the Alliance ranks who knows of this theoretical Cerberus-Alliance connection is actively dissuading any such investigations. That probably wouldn't be hard to do and still keep the real reasons for it quiet.

You'd think that at some point Cerberus has attempted to woo an Alliance Marine who would have nothing to do with them...given how many people Cerberus has I just can't see them being 100% successful in turning people to their cause...which again, they have to do even if they are still sort of married to the Alliance given the prevailing public opinion of the group.

It's a very interesting topic!

Think of Kahoku again. He wasn't shot in the head. He was injected with poison. Which means he was captured alive.

[nremies1]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

nremies1 wrote...

I further wonder if Alliance personnel who want to join Cerberus are sniffed out by Cerberus handlers within the Alliance, or if Cerberus has its handlers pick people they think are interested but haven't displayed any outward interest yet.

Either way, recruiting from former Alliance people is very risky...if I were part of Alliance Intelligence I'd definitely be trying to find those Cerberus handlers and either interrogate them or plant somebody within Cerberus. The fact that they appear not to have done either - which I assume is the case because Cerberus has plenty of ex-Alliance people in its ranks - suggests to me that the Alliance isn't particularly worried about it, or somebody very high up in the Alliance ranks who knows of this theoretical Cerberus-Alliance connection is actively dissuading any such investigations. That probably wouldn't be hard to do and still keep the real reasons for it quiet.

You'd think that at some point Cerberus has attempted to woo an Alliance Marine who would have nothing to do with them...given how many people Cerberus has I just can't see them being 100% successful in turning people to their cause...which again, they have to do even if they are still sort of married to the Alliance given the prevailing public opinion of the group.

It's a very interesting topic!

Think of Kahoku again. He wasn't shot in the head. He was injected with poison. Which means he was captured alive.

I guess I take that to mean that yes, there are Cerberus people within the Alliance, those people are high enough up the chain of command to abduct an Admiral, and yes, somebody even higher up than the black-bag team that did the job knows about it and is keeping the heat off that cell.

EDIT: well, to simplify it, I guess all it means is that somebody high up the Alliance food chain ordered the hit, or allowed it to happen. 

Modifié par nremies1, 10 avril 2010 - 02:56 .

[Raanz]

Gabey5 wrote...

-the game says it went rogue
-the novels tell us they went rogue
-bioware tells us they went rogue


they are rouge

It's easy for private spin to say they have gone rogue when some of their actions are quite naferious and would paint humans and the Alliance in a bad light with other races.  "plausible deniability"

I actually like this theory.  It fills some holes for me within the story so far.  Kudos to OP.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

-the game says it went rogue
-the novels tell us they went rogue
-bioware tells us they went rogue

It's called the "suspense".

It's called a nutty and unecessary conspiracy theory. Cerberus is rogue now, but they were officially part of the Alliance up until ME1. I'm sure the Alliance (with some exceptions, like Anderson) is against Cerberus not because they're against their methods per se but because if you could prove to the Council that Cerberus is or was ever part of the Alliance this would have severe political implications. But there's simply no need for Cerberus to remain part of the Alliance in order to fulfill the same potential payoff in ME3.

This is so unecessarily complicated.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 10 avril 2010 - 03:45 .

[The-Person]

KSerge wrote...

I think there's some investigative fluff dialog that mentions (or maybe codex info) that when the Charon relay was first found, TIM proposed that there needed to be some kind of defense organization specifically aimed at keeping everything in Sol system protected from everything on the other side of the Charon relay. Thus, the name Cerberus (look up Charon in greek mythology, it'll make sense of it for you).

When alliance politics shot down the idea (in the wake of the first contact war, they weren't looking to alienate themselves from the rest of the sentient galaxy), TIM started up cerberus anyway, without the backing of the alliance. Through his many contacts and associations, he's developed cerberus into a black-ops division rivaling the STG and Spectres, but since it's not government sanctioned it is technically a "rogue" group. Though honestly, it is no more "rogue" than a mercenary company the way I understand it.

In any case, if Cerberus got away from that bad habit of "breaking the rules" to research potential defense solutions, they'd probably have been sanctioned by the government decades ago. I think TIM prefers the current layout, though, given the freedom of not operating with any government red tape. Double-edged sword being that the alliance, and the rest of citadel space, fears and distrusts them.

It wasn't TIM who started cerberus, it is implied that TIM was not the first leader.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

This is so unecessarily complicated.

Occam's Razor. Best friend of all conspirators since the time immemorial.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2010 - 04:12 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

This is so unecessarily complicated.

Occam's Razor. Best friend of all conspirators since the time immemorial.

Dude, that is the exact opposite of truth. Occam's Razor is this: "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity."

This is often expressed in the latin phrase lex parsimoniae which translated directly is law of parsimony, meaning the law of the most simplest explanation available.

In layman's terms: if sh*t is unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree, it most likely isn't true.

This flies right over the head of conspiracy theorists. And that tin foil hat is not stylish bro.

Cerberus is rogue end of story. Cerberus once was part of the alliance, but most of the galaxy does not know this. if they found out it would fulfill the same goals in the story as your silly conspiracy theory without being unecessarily complicated to a retarded degree.

Everybody wins!

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 10 avril 2010 - 04:43 .

[nremies1]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

In layman's terms: if sh*t is unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree, it most likely isn't true.

Not sure why the idea that Cerberus being rogue purely as a cover for things the Alliance wants to do but can't publicly is "unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree."

I mean, you could use actual evidence or show how the conclusions people have been drawing are flawed, or throw the whole idea out because it's 'too complicated..."

I find it an interesting discussion.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

This is so unecessarily complicated.

Occam's Razor. Best friend of all conspirators since the time immemorial.

Dude, that is the exact opposite of truth. Occam's Razor is this: "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity."

This is often expressed in the latin phrase lex parsimoniae which translated directly is law of parsimony, meaning the law of the most simplest explanation available.

In layman's terms: if sh*t is unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree, it most likely isn't true.

That's exactly why a "government conspiracy" has a chance to survive exposure. Most people simply won't believe in it. If you fail this hard to understand that it was the meaning of my calling Occam's Razor conspirator's best friend, then don't bother reading any of my furhter posts.

BTW, tin foil idiocy is not an argument agaist the goverments' not telling the folks the whole story.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

nremies1 wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

In layman's terms: if sh*t is unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree, it most likely isn't true.

Not sure why the idea that Cerberus being rogue purely as a cover for things the Alliance wants to do but can't publicly is "unnecessarily complicated to a retarded degree."

I'm sure you don't understand why. That much is clear.

I'll break it down for you why this is a dumb idea.

• It requires all of the tension and hostility between Cerberus and the Alliance to be feigned
• It requires thousands of individuals to be complicit in this conspiracy without a single whistle-blower
• Ultimately the only person of real importance ever being lied to is Shepard. Which is just dumb. Because the ultimate purpose of this conspiracy was so that the Alliance could get Shepard into the Spectres, get a human on the council and defeat the Reapers. Blahblah.
• This could be more easily accomplished by simply being honest about their goals and telling the council to go f*ck itself. Why lie? Whose going to stop the humans when they've got converted reaper tech? Especially since the guy they need to accomplish all of these things for them (Shepard) might not necessarily be against the idea of using said Reaper tech to defeat the god damn repears.
• If this is true this means that all of the tension and drama associated with Shepard joining with Cerberus is null and void, especially if you told TIM to stick it where the sun don't shine at the end of ME2. So from a story telling perspective this is just badbadbad.
• This would be the worst twist since Shamylan's village stuck in the dark ages, plants that want to kill people and whatever the **** that movie in between was about combined.

[nremies1]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

I'm sure you don't understand why. That much is clear.

I'll break it down for you why this is a dumb idea.

• It requires all of the tension and hostility between Cerberus and the Alliance to be feigned
• It requires thousands of individuals to be complicit in this conspiracy without a single whistle-blower
• Ultimately
  the only person of real importance ever being lied to is Shepard. Which
  is just dumb. Because the ultimate purpose of this conspiracy was so
  that the Alliance could get Shepard into the Spectres, get a human on
  the council and defeat the Reapers. Blahblah.
• This could be
  more easily accomplished by simply being honest about their goals and
  telling the council to go f*ck itself. Why lie? Whose going to stop the
  humans when they've got converted reaper tech? Especially since the guy
  they need to accomplish all of these things for them (Shepard) might
  not necessarily be against the idea of using said Reaper tech to defeat
  the god damn repears.
• If this is true this means that all
  of the tension and drama associated with Shepard joining with Cerberus
  is null and void, especially if you told TIM to stick it where the sun
  don't shine at the end of ME2. So from a story telling perspective this
  is just badbadbad.
• This would be the worst twist since
  Shamylan's village stuck in the dark ages, plants that want to kill
  people and whatever the **** that movie in between was about combined.

Hm. A reasoned and thought-out reply. Nice.

Next time try it with a little less **** in there.