798 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
If this is true this means that all of the tension and drama associated with Shepard joining with Cerberus is null and void, especially if you told TIM to stick it where the sun don't shine at the end of ME2. So from a story telling perspective this is just badbadbad.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post, btw, but I think this here is exactly why some people really like the conspiracy theory idea.  ME2 has very little focus on Shepard him/herself, and in any case Shepard has relatively little control over the events in the game besides the combat sequences, so it's only natural people would glom onto the actual mover and shaker in the game, who is TIM.  The game goes out of its way to portray him as an omnicompetent mastermind and Shep as his button man/woman, basically, so it's not exactly a big surprise things turned out that way.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
If this is true this means that all of the tension and drama associated with Shepard joining with Cerberus is null and void, especially if you told TIM to stick it where the sun don't shine at the end of ME2. So from a story telling perspective this is just badbadbad.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post, btw, but I think this here is exactly why some people really like the conspiracy theory idea.  ME2 has very little focus on Shepard him/herself, and in any case Shepard has relatively little control over the events in the game besides the combat sequences, so it's only natural people would glom onto the actual mover and shaker in the game, who is TIM.  The game goes out of its way to portray him as an omnicompetent mastermind and Shep as his button man/woman, basically, so it's not exactly a big surprise things turned out that way.  

Believe it or not, that's exactly how the universe works. Some people sit there in cosy offices and "make the calls". And some go into sh*t and shoot things. Or get shot themselves. The latter is Shepard. The former is TIM. TIM is in charge. But it's more fun to play Shepard. That is so, no matter if my here theory is correct.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2010 - 06:46 .

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Believe it or not, that's exactly how the universe works.

The whole point of the Spectres was that they could be the kinds of guys who both put boot to tail personally and could 'make the calls,' i.e. a perfect PC job.  They were an imaginary law enforcement/military position in an imaginary government in an imaginary sci-fi universe.  So when you say 'that's exactly how the universe works,' you may not understand that you mean it, but what you're really saying is 'that's how I think the universe should work.'  Which, like I said, is no surprise, since they went out of their way to portray a lot of the NPCs with more detail and energy than the main character; it's not your fault you  naturally felt a connection with a character other than the 'main' one.  

Modifié par Terraneaux, 10 avril 2010 - 06:54 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
If this is true this means that all of the tension and drama associated with Shepard joining with Cerberus is null and void, especially if you told TIM to stick it where the sun don't shine at the end of ME2. So from a story telling perspective this is just badbadbad.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post, btw, but I think this here is exactly why some people really like the conspiracy theory idea.  ME2 has very little focus on Shepard him/herself, and in any case Shepard has relatively little control over the events in the game besides the combat sequences, so it's only natural people would glom onto the actual mover and shaker in the game, who is TIM.  The game goes out of its way to portray him as an omnicompetent mastermind and Shep as his button man/woman, basically, so it's not exactly a big surprise things turned out that way.  

Believe it or not, that's exactly how the universe works. Some people sit there in cosy offices and "make the calls". And some go into sh*t and shoot things. Or get shot themselves. The latter is Shepard. The former is TIM. TIM is in charge. But it's more fun to play Shepard. That is so, no matter if my here theory is correct.

It also wouldn't be bad from a story standpoint if it causes quite a lot of tension between the other alien races and potential conflict on the eve of the Reaper invasion.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Believe it or not, that's exactly how the universe works.

The whole point of the Spectres was that they could be the kinds of guys who both put boot to tail personally and could 'make the calls,' i.e. a perfect PC job.  They were an imaginary law enforcement/military position in an imaginary government in an imaginary sci-fi universe.  So when you say 'that's exactly how the universe works,' you may not understand that you mean it, but what you're really saying is 'that's how I think the universe should work.'  Which, like I said, is no surprise, since they went out of their way to portray a lot of the NPCs with more detail and energy than the main character; it's not your fault you  naturally felt a connection with a character other than the 'main' one.  

Clap. Clap. Clap. Freudism at work. I feel absolutely no connection to my Shepard, which exists in just a single incarnation.

The problem with your imaginary spectres is that the day they were actually able to "make all the calls" themselves, they'd cease to kick arses in person. And the Council would become unnecessary. It's called coup'd'etat.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The problem with your imaginary spectres is that the day they were actually able to "make all the calls" themselves, they'd cease to kick arses in person. And the Council would become unnecessary. It's called coup'd'etat.

You 'make the call' on the Rachni queen, don't you?  And the Council doesn't fire you or really chastise you either way?  The Council wants independent operatives that they don't have to manage.  I'm sure there are plenty of Spectres who don't get their hands particularly dirty a lot of the time and work through subterfuge, misdirection, and intermediaries.  Shepard just doesn't because that would make for a boring game.  

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Clap. Clap. Clap. Freudism at work. I feel absolutely no connection to my Shepard, which exists in just a single incarnation.

It's not really Freudian in nature, since, as you imply, you don't really feel a deep-seated emotional connection to the characters in this game (unless you do, in fact, not have one for Shep and feel connected to characters like TIM, but that kind of proves my point).  It has more to do with social dynamics; you sense that the focus of the game shifted, and you adapted your mental state with it, a natural human reaction to a situation like that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...
You 'make the call' on the Rachni queen, don't you?  

I mean the phone calls.

Terraneaux wrote...
 you sense that the focus of the game shifted

And how it makes this theory invalid?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2010 - 07:23 .

[Yakko77]

BigBody26 wrote...

Why would the alliance allow you to kill so many Cerberus operatives and shut down so many of their experiments in ME1 then? If your idea is correct though, I still hope we get a chance to shut Cerberus down, then TIM reveals the truth to us(that Udina knew about it all along), then we get to kill Udina! Oh the satisfaction that would bring.

It's not like the Alliance had total control over you in ME1 even if they were inclined to stop you from stoppping Cerberus activities.  You were running about the galaxy in the one and only stealth ship in existence so it's not like they could stop you if they wanted to.

As for Cerberus being part of the Alliance still and their "rogue' status being a cover, it's plausible.  If the data Kasumi got a hold of implicates the Alliance with the Reapers and Cerberus used some Reaper tech to build the Normandy SR2 then maybe, just maybe, there's still a relationship between the groups.  Even so, I'll just about bet the number of people toally informed of this can be counted on one hand IF it's even true. 

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And how it makes this theory invalid?

Basically because you're willing to insist that pure speculation is solid evidence if it points to circumstances that inflate TIM and Cerberus's importance, since you feel validated by supporting this view.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And how it makes this theory invalid?

Basically because you're willing to insist that pure speculation is solid evidence if it points to circumstances that inflate TIM and Cerberus's importance, since you feel validated by supporting this view.  

Where do I insist that there is any solid evidence? Speculation is speculation. But to dismiss it as a false, there must be a solid evidence, indeed.

I have no argument against the people, who post things like "I doubt it", "It's unlikely" and "It's far fetched".

But those who use Kahoku's and Toombs's "testimony" and Occam's Razor to "prove", that I am a tin foil hat moron, put me on the defensive.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2010 - 07:48 .

[Indie Thompson]

Actually, it makes sense. And it is in line with Kasumi DLC.



SPOILERS !!!!!!!







Well, kinda.



When you get that greybox back and Kasumi is looking at the memories.

He said that delete the memories, and that if it comes out that Alliance might be implicated.



So if Cerberus was still part of the Alliance military, and the Council would find out it

would be actually pretty darn bad.



So it actually does make sense.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But those who use Kahoku's and Toomb's "testimony" and Occams Razor to "prove", that I am a tin foil hat moron, put me on the defensive.

Of course, because, like most people, attacking your viewpoint (even if the complaint is perfectly valid) results in you feeling like you are being attacked yourself.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But those who use Kahoku's and Toomb's "testimony" and Occams Razor to "prove", that I am a tin foil hat moron, put me on the defensive.

Of course, because, like most people, attacking your viewpoint (even if the complaint is perfectly valid) results in you feeling like you are being attacked yourself.  

Whatever.

[Dean_the_Young]

See? Case in point.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's funny to read tons of posts about how swell it would be to jump Cerberus and "go back to the Alliance", when there is a strong possibility that Shepard has never left the Alliance. Instead, he got promoted from special forces division to intelligence agency.

That said, the Alliance seems to be organised quite unlike today's governments. Its chain of command is less strict (for example, Udina seems to exercise a broad autonomy from the Alliance Parliament/Cabinet) and the structure is modular. This is probably the result of interstellar economy and finance.

The Human population beyond the Solar system is relatively small, with the largest colonies not exceeding population of 5 million. But the amount of commodities being moved around is very large. Therefore the Alliance's budget gets most of its income not from individual taxpayers, but from corporations. Therefore Alliance represents not public interests at all, but rather corporate interests. And the corporations may influence different divisions/agencies of the Alliance directly, bypassing the Parliament/Cabinet's bureaucratic structure, that may be there just for show in the first place.

It looks like this is the case with Cerberus. Maybe other branches of the Alliance are not happy about it, but there is nothing they can do. Maybe they are not even supposed to do anything about it. That's why Kahoku was almost helpless, and ran his investigation like it was his personal matter. He should have known better than mess with something like that.

LONG STORY SHORT:
Supplying, controlling, monitoring security leaks and accounting for an intelligence agency is costly. It's more expedient to have it as a self-sufficient outfit, if you are unscrupulous enough.

I'm too sure if I would equate Cerberus with the CIA. It would be more like the Bilderberg group or some other secret society/organization that calls the shots behind the scenes. 

[prizm123]

BigBody26 wrote...

Why would the alliance allow you to kill so many Cerberus operatives and shut down so many of their experiments in ME1 then?

to get good PR and to further enhance the deception
give up small, unimportant, or potentially bad cells/projects to be destroyed in the name of misdirection

[prizm123]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

 

1-smokescreen, the alliance was installing GARDIAN defense cannons, so they knew >something< was there, and not necessarily Cerberus, Ashley/Kaidan were given false information as to the real reason they were there
2-why not? maybe he is the CEO and doesn't need to be appointed
3-$400 toilet seats, $5000 screwdrivers.... stuff like that is in our defense budget, whats to say it isn't also masked in a similar way for the Alliance budget? a lot of that money goes to who knows where, and is never mentioned
4-why not if they were looking for ways to bring back dead soldiers and Shep was merely the first test subject?

[Zulu_DFA]

Actually, the cost prohibitiveness of the Cerberus projects clearly indicates that they are funded from some outside source.

As for the Alliance budget, who says the Alliance even has such a thing? As I said, each Alliance element (department, agency, office. institution) may have a separate budget, beefed up directly by interested corps. Alliance funds don't come from taxpayers. They come from corporate commerce.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 mai 2010 - 10:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Don't really want to start a thread just for this, so I'm posting it here first:



Who else thinks Major Derek Izunami is a Cerberus agent?

[Spornicus]

So if Cerberus never went rogue and are still part of the Alliance, then what is the point of the Corsairs the Jacob was in? It seems a little redundant to have two groups that work outside the bounds of the law and deny being part of the Alliance. Unless, of course, the Corsairs was a Cerberus Cell and Jacob just got transferred.

[SSV Enterprise]

Cerberus is still closely connected to the Alliance, no doubt. Cerberus probably owes its continued existence and smooth operation to supporters within the Alliance government. But part of the Alliance? No. Cerberus is not subject to control from Alliance government, Rear Admiral Kahoku explicitly says they went rogue in ME1, and everyone in ME2, TIM included, acts like Cerberus and the Alliance are separate entities. In fact, when Miranda says Cerberus is humanity's counterpart to the salarian STGs, you can retort that the STGs are controlled by the salarian government, while Cerberus lacks control from the human government.

Also, there is still a democratic voting process for the Alliance government.  I never got the idea that corporations are the primary backers of the Alliance.  It's far more likely that the member nations of the Alliance back on Earth provide the majority of funds for it.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 01 juillet 2010 - 09:46 .

[NKKKK]

no

[Zulu_DFA]

SSV Enterprise wrote...
Also, there is still a democratic voting process for the Alliance government.  I never got the idea that corporations are the primary backers of the Alliance.  It's far more likely that the member nations of the Alliance back on Earth provide the majority of funds for it.

Study the Codex. It explicitly says that after the First Contact War the Systems Alliance gained political independence from Earth's nations. Earth's nations control the Solar System. The Alliance controls the Human colonies (those that didn't break away from the Alliance space like Horizon). Its capital is Arcturus Station. It does have a parliament, but that doesn't tell us much about how democratic it is. Logic suggests that the funds necessary for the Alliance to operate can be only raised from interstellar commerce, not from tax-payers. The Alliance may not even need a tax system, as most of its citizens are first or second generation colonists bound by contracts with corporations that continue to contribute certain percentage of their revenues to their common interests, which the Alliance was initially established to advance.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

NKKKK wrote...

no

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

no

Why?