101 réponses à ce sujet

[congokurtz]

Pick up Dominate if you like comedy.



I always like to dominate a Heavy or Pyro for the hilarity that ensues.



I'm doing a Dominator Engineer with maxed Dominate and (currently) 2 points in AI Hacking on insanity. It's a fairly entertaining run. You generally have time to pop off another power (overload or incinerate) in between dominates.

[qq151069]

Thank you everyone for the great
input. 




I was just more interested to see if there was any class that
absolutely needed a bonus power to survive/be effective; to me, it seemed that every class had enough innate power to make most bonus powers redundant.  (Sans spamming reave to get fast run times).

JnEricsonx wrote...



Too bad there's no real hand to hand
butt-kicking in ME.

One thing that would be interesting to see is a cloaked melee infiltrator.  I don't know how successful it would be but it would be pretty cool.  (Probably not too successful agaisnt targets like the Praetorian or Reapers). 

sinosleep wrote...

Basing it from videos made by
community members here, there is all of ONE person who uses it with any
kind of regularity on the vanguard. Personally I'm always going to
consider reave far more broken than anything else in the game. Cloak and
AR at the end of the day are WEAPON skills, and as such they require
some semblance of skill and participation on the part of the player.
Reave on the other hand is simply an I win button. Being a biotic
instacast ability it requires no skill to aim whatsoever and then does
all of these things 1. strips barriers 2. strips armor 3. is an AOE 4.
is instacast, 5. restores health . All of that combined is entirely too
much crap to come from ONE ability. Here's a video of a
soldier making it through the first part of the suicide run without
firing a single shot from his weapon in pretty quick time using nothing
but reave and his squad. It's just silly.

Kurupt87 wrote...

you forgot 6. CC on organic health, pretty long too, and makes 'em stand up.

I forgot about how overpowered reave was and its ability to make any
class a reave-spamming machine.  I guess that means taking reave would make speedrunning/killing that much faster (and much MUCH more boring).  Its funny how one bonus power can make you into a biotic god, but I think Niftu Cal already has that covered.

[qq151069]

congokurtz wrote...
I'm doing a Dominator Engineer with maxed Dominate and (currently) 2 points in AI Hacking on insanity. It's a fairly entertaining run. You generally have time to pop off another power (overload or incinerate) in between dominates.

Did you go enhanced or group dominate?  I'm thinking it would be fun to go group and march around with an army behind you

[RamsenC]

Reave is its own class. Either you play your class or you play Reave.



I don't think spamming reave is going to win any speed runs though. It will only be useful as a defense stripper in a speed run. To get the best speed run times you probably need warp explosions to quickly decimate groups. Reave can obviously help set this up since it strips defenses in an AoE, but so does energy drain.

[congokurtz]

qq151069 wrote...

congokurtz wrote...
I'm doing a Dominator Engineer with maxed Dominate and (currently) 2 points in AI Hacking on insanity. It's a fairly entertaining run. You generally have time to pop off another power (overload or incinerate) in between dominates.

Did you go enhanced or group dominate?  I'm thinking it would be fun to go group and march around with an army behind you

That would be fun.  I went enhanced for the duration so I can fire off powers in between dominations.  The problem with group domination is if you have three enemies come out of a domination while near you things might get ugly.

[DragoonKain3]

RamsenC wrote...
I don't think spamming reave is going to win any speed runs though. It will only be useful as a defense stripper in a speed run. To get the best speed run times you probably need warp explosions to quickly decimate groups. Reave can obviously help set this up since it strips defenses in an AoE, but so does energy drain.

You forget that Reave regens 200+ health everytime you hit organic health. That alone should be enough to keep you alive long enough for you to keep toting your gun out of cover until CD is up or you have to reload. Warp Explosion does not help in that regard; you're going to waste a lot of time hiding behind cover regenerating your health/shields.

Note also that Warp Explosion does NOT kill anyone at 75%+ health. So barring blowing someone off a ledge (of which Reave + Throw field does faster and more consistently), WE is actually slower since you're better off taking advantage of them being out of cover due to CC + ragdoll damage bonus. This has been documented by the numerous videos floating around the net, like Gatsby's Adept videos in this forum.

As for Energy drain, yes it strips shields, but note that you have far fewer targets with it than Reave. In a more shield/synthetic heavy campaign, I'd take drain over reave in a heartbeat, but that isn't the case in ME2.

[RamsenC]

I don't forget reave regens health, its just not something that actually helps me. I could see more health regen being truly useful on soldier, but that's about it. Other than that its pretty much a novelty, but I would not suggest getting reave on soldier since that's just silly. 

Check this speed run video out:


He uses area reave for stripping only, but follows it up with a pull field>warp explosion which clears groups very quickly. If he just reaved them a second time rather than pulling off the warp explosion combo that video would not have been as quick. 

Also the vast majority of enemies have blue shields, not sure how you think theres more barrier/armor enemies. I'm talking about insanity btw. I'd love to see you put together a good speed run on Zaeed's loyalty mission using Reave spam. I suggested Zaeed's mission since it has standard blue suns mercs, which are fairly common in the game. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 08 mars 2010 - 02:37 .

[baller7345]

thisisme8 wrote...

Arde5643 wrote...

@thisisme8: nothing's as manly as going mano-to-mano with 2 scions with a shotgun adept! nothing!
And yeah, that was a full-blown beard and scars for my Shep.

Oh, don't get me started!  I'll go toe to toe with anyone, but I don't know about a beard and scars...  you can lock them down with Singularity which effectlively neuters them.  Engineers can do the same with drone.  I know it won't completely lock them both for easy pickens or anything, but it doesn't hurt.

With an engineer take tali and legion and with their drones on one scion and you and your drone on the other scion you can lock them down pretty muchlock the indefinitely.  Just make sure to kill the first one fast enough so that it doesn't come up from behind.  After that you can actually punch out the second scion. 

Modifié par baller7345, 08 mars 2010 - 02:53 .

[DragoonKain3]

Again, the only enemies that have shields are eclipse engineers (I think their heavies as well?), blue sun mercs, Ymir mechs and geth.

Everything else... varren, krogan, vorcha, giant squid thingies, fenris, loki, drone, guardian, assassin, harbinger, husk, abominations, scions, initiates, and vanguards, have either armor or barrier. Even Geth Primes/Colossus has armor.

Not to mention that Reave has CC/health regen on organics, and of the above, only loki/fenris/ymir mechs and the geth are your targets for the shield boost of Energy Drain once you get them to health.

So yes, its an undeniable fact that you have way more targets with Reave than you do Energy Drain. How you can argue otherwise is simply beyond me.


As for the Vanguard, note that I already mentioned that different classes value Reave in different ways. For Vanguards, Charge is simply better keeping you alive, as it gives you 100% shield boost, so they're not dependent on Reave to keep them alive (like the Engineer with OP drone). As such, they can squeeze in Warp Explosion if they wanted to, which they should in that stage because being blown away can mean instant death. Having WE take off protection for a large radius works in this case, as you can blow some people off to their doom while charge those that don't quite fall off.

But for stages where there are no ledges? I haven't played much vanguard, but from what little I've played of it, I'd rather keep them CCed in a 3m area with Reave as thats your splash damage for Heavy Incendiary Ammo, rather than blow them away in different directions using WE. Not to mention I actually PREFER charging against protection in these stages, as shotguns ain't so great when you just sent your target flying across the room, so WE taking off too many protections become a hindrance to my playstyle.

Of course actual Vanguard players might disprove me on how effecient my experiences are, as I haven't truly tried powergaming that class yet.

But for the caster classes where they don't have an easy way to regain health (even Sent's assault armor has too long a CD to be spammed), you simply can't afford WE unless you sacrifice speed, as you'd be hiding to regenerate your shields often.

I mean, if I can clear the same stage with an Adept at under 6 minutes with my godawful twitch skills (I think I missed at point blank range five times there lol) and constant pausing, how much more for a highly skilled player? WE users would definitely take longer.

[TheBellTolls4Me]

Soldier: Inferno Grenade

-I Inferno Grenade. It is a godsend against husks, although it's easier to use as Zaeed. I can never seem to get the aim down when I'm using it.



Engie: Reave/Dominate

-It depends on what build I'm running. Dominate's a huge help on the final mission, although a bonus power really isn't necessary. You have to admit though - AI Hacking/Dominate Engie is fun, especially if you run Samara and Legion.



Adept: Warp Ammo

-Makes sense since you're setting up for detonations the majority of the time. I could be convinced to run barrier/geth shield boost and then take a shotgun for my bonus, however. That could be fun.



Vanguard: Reave/Barrier

-Reave is obviously the best one, but Barrier is useful since it compliments charge. I think if you're running insanity though, it won't have enough of an effect to make it worth while over Reave.



Infiltrator: Warp Ammo

-The Infiltrator benefits a LOT from the damage bonus from Warp Ammo, especially early on. It's really the best power for it, I think.



Sentinel: None

-I.. honestly can't come up with a good bonus power for the Sentinel. Fortification seems redundant, really. I guess it could work if you used Fortification and went shotgun. I don't know. It sounds like an interesting run, although it'd be hell until you got the shotgun.

[Kurupt87]

@DragoonKain3, are you seriously suggesting there are more armour/barrier'd enemies than shields? did we play the same game?

[Besetment]

RamsenC wrote...
Check this speed run video out:


He uses area reave for stripping only, but follows it up with a pull field>warp explosion which clears groups very quickly. If he just reaved them a second time rather than pulling off the warp explosion combo that video would not have been as quick.

Jesus Christ, Reave + 5/5 Biotic upgrades takes out Collector Barriers instantly.

Also the vast majority of enemies have blue shields, not sure how you think theres more barrier/armor enemies. I'm talking about insanity btw. I'd love to see you put together a good speed run on Zaeed's loyalty mission using Reave spam. I suggested Zaeed's mission since it has standard blue suns mercs, which are fairly common in the game. 

I think its fairly even. Off the top of my head...

Mostly Armour:

Jack's Loyalty
Mordin's Recruitment
Mordin's Loyalty
Grunt's Loyalty
Jacob's Loyalty
Reaper IFF

Mostly Shields:

Tali's Recruitment
Tali's Loyalty
Grunt's Recruitment
Jack's Recruitment
Zaeed's Loyalty
Garrus' Loyalty

Shields/Barrier and Armour even split:

Garrus' Recruitment
Thane's Recruitment
Samara's Recruitment
Horizon
Collector Ship
Collector Base

Theres a tonne of N7 missions with Blue Suns mercs though and they all have shields. But then theres the 180 LOKIs mission and Hakne Kedar Factory which has billions of armoured mechs so...

[DragoonKain3]

@Kurupt
If you still don't believe me, do a breakdown of missions/assignments.

The only missions that Reave is really subpar are the Geth missions. Which are...
Tali's Recruitment
Tali's Loyalty
Legion's Loyalty

Those that are primarily shields, but you can use Reave anyways to CC organics once you shoot/Area Overloaded them are...
Grunt's Recruitment
Jack's Recruitment
Zaeed's Loyalty
Garrus' Loyalty

Those that are half shields and half barrier/armor are...
Freedom's Progress
Garrus' Recruitment

The rest are primarily barrier/armor:
Jack's Loyalty
Mordin's Recruitment
Mordin's Loyalty
Grunt's Loyalty
Jacob's Loyalty
Reaper IFF
Thane's Recruitment
Samara's Recruitment
Horizon
Collector Ship
Collector Base

So 11 out of 20 missions (55%) are already heavily favoured in reave and 6 out of 20 (30%) you can still Reave spam to keep you alive by hitting unprotected organics/stripping armored synthetics. That's 85% of missions altogether, and even for the 30% of shielded missions, I still use Reave as basically a half CD barrier/area CC.

With Energy Drain, its only really heavily favoured in the Geth missions (15%). In 6 Missions (30%), you can use it to recharge your shields by hitting enemy shields (which isn't a reliable source of recharging shields, as even Gatsby says, enemies still has more health than protection in Insanity), and much more rarely, hitting synthetic health.


Assignments...

Geth/All of them Ymir Mechs (Reave does noticeably less than warp against these mechs)
Imminent Ship Crash
Eclipse Smuggling Depot
Anonmalous Weather

Primarily Shields but primarily organic health still
Archaeological Dig Site
Strontium Mule
Blue Suns Base
Javeling Launch

Primarily barrier/armor
Lost Operative
Quarian Crash Site
Blood Pack Comm Relay
Blood Pack Base
Wrecked Merchant Freighter
Hahne-Kedar
Capture Mining Facility
Abandoned Mine

Very little to No Fights
Abandoned Research Station
Endangered Research Station
Mining the Canyon
Estevanico

Of the 15 battle based assignments, 8 of them are heavily in favour of reave, while its still VERY useful in 4. That's 80% of all the assignments.

[RamsenC]

So many things wrong with that it makes my head want to explode (for example Freedom's Progress is heavily blue shields). Heres what you need to do; play through the entire game and count how many shielded enemies there are and how many armor/barrier enemies there are. I don't feel like going through a lot of work to prove you wrong so we will just have to agree to disagree. Also using Reave on health only enemies is a waste. You do half damage compared to damage done to barriers/armor and its damage over time. Pull>Warp wins, try it out.

Also energy drain is better on synthetics as far as I can tell, so saying Reave>Overload on mechs is silly.
BTW incinerate is better on armor than reave, with your logic engineer w/incinerate spam would have the fastest speed run time for any mission with armored enemies. Lets not forget the point of this discussion, I'm telling you reave spam will not get you the best speed runs.

Modifié par RamsenC, 09 mars 2010 - 12:27 .

[King Eselred]

Reave is OP.



There are more shielded enemies in the game on HC/Insanity. Anyone who says differently is either playing an easy difficulty level (AKA not HC/Insanity) or playing a different game altogether.

[Schneidend]

Eh. I would only suggest AP or Warp Ammo. If you're playing your class correctly, your global cooldown will be too busy for any other bonus skill to really see a lot of use. Ammo powers, on the other hand, are modal, and thus allow you to shoot them and Charge/Drone/Warp/Singularity/Adrenaline Rush/etc. at the same time.

[Besetment]

RamsenC wrote...

So many things wrong with that it makes my head want to explode (for example Freedom's Progress is heavily blue shields). Heres what you need to do; play through the entire game and count how many shielded enemies there are and how many armor/barrier enemies there are. I don't feel like going through a lot of work to prove you wrong so we will just have to agree to disagree. Also using Reave on health only enemies is a waste. You do half damage compared to damage done to barriers/armor and its damage over time. Pull>Warp wins, try it out.

Also energy drain is better on armored synthetics as far as I can tell, so saying Reave>Overload on mechs is silly.
BTW incinerate is better on armor than reave, with your logic engineer w/incinerate spam would have the fastest speed run time for any mission with armored enemies. Lets not forget the point of this discussion, I'm telling you reave spam will not get you the best speed runs.

Ehh, I can understand why he says Freedom's Progress is half and half. 6 Lokis, 3 Fenris Mechs with armour and a YMIR with shields/armour. Then there are 4x waves of 3 shield only Rocket Drones and of those, half of them are beatable with a cheesy exploit. Waypoint both squadmates on the upper gantry and they don't shoot back (which includes shooting at you on the lower gantry) so whip out the Shuriken and spam left click with impunity.

Other than that you use whatever native anti shield/armour/barrier ability you have and the rest you fill out with squadmates. So I retrained Infiltrator with Reave (no Incinerate) on Collector Ship with no squad ammo (so it doesn't override Jack's squad Warp Ammo). Pull/Warp combo and instant barrier removal makes for a pretty safe run. I specced Improved AI Hacking/Squad Disruptor on synthetic heavy missions and rolled back to Incinerate for everything else. It only costs between 2500 and 7500 eezo a pop. Hell, after getting 3/5 SR upgrades and the 50% headshot upgrade, respec your bonus to Tungsten rounds for Mordin's Loyalty since at that point you can strip Krogan armour in a single cloaked headshot. Outside of that and a few other heavy armour types where it saves you time and ammo theres literally no point in having it so go right back to Squad Cryo.

Modifié par Besetment, 08 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[sinosleep]

m14567 wrote...

If Reave sets the standard for OP then a lot of things in this game are OP. Reave is just the organic version of overload, seriously what is the big deal?

You want to talk OP, then take a look at Soldier + Revenant or Infiltrator + Widow. Reave is simply not in the same category as those two.

Does overload provide health? Does overload work on TWO defense types? 

And once again, weapon abilities require SOME SEMBLANCE OF SKILL. You have to aim the weapon, and hit the target, and avoid damage. With reave, as with any biotic, aiming is a non issue since you can aim half a screen away from your target and still be "targeting" them. It requires practically no player interaction whatsoever. You pop out of cover and mash the same hotkey over and over and over again and you can beat entire levels that feature either predominantly armor or barrier using enemies. The comparisons to AR, charge, and cloak and absolutely ridiculous. 

[Besetment]

The life siphon on Reave isn't that big a deal on Insanity+ because you lose health and shields so fast anyway. The CC is another matter and its pretty awesome - better than the panic inflicted by Incinerate for sure. There are some situations like in those collector vids where it insta strips barrier and is awesome. And there are times when its faster to use something else. Same with Incinerate and Warp to some extent.



Its a good utility bonus, made more so because most of the other bonus powers are more situational and frankly not very good. Tungsten Rounds were hailed as the best bonus power for ages but after racing Gatsby on Mordin's Recruitment mission on Insanity+ we worked out pretty quickly that its bunk. We finished in about the same time, fired roughly the same number of Widow shots and I was using Tungsten Rounds whereas he was using Squad Cryo. And he never shot a frozen enemy with the Widow so make of that what you will. Doesn't matter if you are cloaked or have no ammo power. 1 headshot always kills Vorcha, 4 headshots always kills Krogan. Only difference Tungsten Rounds made was that the last of the 4 shots was total overkill.

[sandman7431]

Schneidend wrote...

Eh. I would only suggest AP or Warp Ammo. If you're playing your class correctly, your global cooldown will be too busy for any other bonus skill to really see a lot of use. Ammo powers, on the other hand, are modal, and thus allow you to shoot them and Charge/Drone/Warp/Singularity/Adrenaline Rush/etc. at the same time.

That's my philosophy too.  Reave is a cheap trick.  It won't win you any speed runs but you can just hang back behind cover and reave spam almost anything in the game.

[sinosleep]

m14567

Did I mention shielded enemies? No, no sir, I don't think I did. I mentioned armor and barrier users. Barriers I'll admit are pretty much exclusive to collector missions, but armor is quite common. And any encounter that features predominantly armor or barriers is completely trivialized by reave.

Also, for the last time. Weapon skills, ANY weapon skill, requires you actually place your targeting reticle on an enemy to kill it. Biotics don't. Regardless of how you want to word it, one requires some semblance of skill while the other requires non whatsoever. If actually targeting enemies requires no skill then what does reave spamming require? NEGATIVE skill? The argument is silly when one is clearly harder to do than the other.

p.s. Before anyone tries to twist my words around. I am in no way implying that using say an adept requires no skill cause most of what you're going to be using is flinging biotics around. Determining where to place singularities and such is a skill and I'm not debating that. What I AM saying is that placing a reticle ON an enemy with a weapon is harder than placing it simply in vicinity of where you want to hit something with biotics. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 08 mars 2010 - 10:55 .

[swk3000]

I was always taking an Ammo power as my bonus skill on my Soldier, but I'm finding that I don't need it. I had all sorts of trouble with Warp Ammo on the Blood Pack section of Archangel's mission, but when I sat down and tried Inferno Ammo, I was surprised at how easy it became. I realize this probably isn't news to anyone, but I thought I'd comment.