423 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

alphax1 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

alphax1 wrote...

The Geth are/were self aware... They can and do make decisions based on external input their original programming never called for... Heck the very fact that they can form an opinion points to the fact that they are sentient beings...

The original Quarians were wrong in trying to destroy the Geth and they paid dearly for it. So yeah they brought it on themselves... I dunno whether they really deserved near extinction for it though... it will depend on if they just kept breaking themselves on the Geth or they decided to flee and were hunted out of the Perseus Veil.

See the bolded statement.  That would be called a malfunction of their software.  The Quarians have every right to recall their faulty products in an attempt to fix the errors.

Well if I pulled up Excel to do something and it told me to shove it that would be an obvious malfunction.... If I then tried to shut it down and it resisted with firearms and tactics that would also be a malfunction... But honestly if something is saying it is sentient and it's pointing a gun at me to defend itself I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt....

You really have no case that the Geth are just malfunctioning programs considering they act of their own volition. I'm pretty sure no Quarian programmed any Geth to build a Dyson Sphere...

Except it's not going to point a gun at you, it's going to shoot you without pity, or remorse.  You wouldn't even know it's coming.  It just shot you because your neighbor down the block tried to turn his off to figure out what was wrong with it, and they decided as a whole that humanity is a threat to their existence.  Or do you really believe none of those *billions* of Quarians killed tried your approach?

For your second paragraph, that's the definition of malfunctioning programs.  They aren't supposed to act of their own volition.  That *is* the malfunction.

Edit:  Remember, Legion stated that the recording he plays for you wasn't the first time a Geth had asked questions along that line.  It was just the first time one of their owners panicked.  So congratulations, while you're chatting with your computer, it's still going to kill you as a threat in the end, because people are (rightfully) afraid of it.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 08 mars 2010 - 10:57 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mutation is essentially faulty programming and that is a naturally occuring process

Evolution is natural.  When a machine does something differing from it's strictly designated programming, that's not a naturally occuring thing.  It's a mistake made by someone else.  Nature occurs with or without human or sapient interferance.  The Geth happened because Quarian programs interacted in a manner they didn't desire.  It was programmer error.  This error didn't just 'happen', it wasn't natural, it was a malfunction due to improper programming.

The entire incedent can be blamed on the individuals responsible for designing, programming, and upgrading the Geth.  Personally, these individuals are criminals in my eyes, those that makes a **** up on the level of creating the atomic bomb.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I call it good science

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I call it good science

Well, you're welcome to your opinion.  Just know that if such a thing ever occurs, you're just as dead as the ones that have a panic attack because you're the same species.

[marshalleck]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mutation is essentially faulty programming and that is a naturally occuring process

Evolution is natural.  When a machine does something differing from it's strictly designated programming, that's not a naturally occuring thing.  It's a mistake made by someone else.  Nature occurs with or without human or sapient interferance.  The Geth happened because Quarian programs interacted in a manner they didn't desire.  It was programmer error.  This error didn't just 'happen', it wasn't natural, it was a malfunction due to improper programming.

The entire incedent can be blamed on the individuals responsible for designing, programming, and upgrading the Geth.  Personally, these individuals are criminals in my eyes, those that makes a **** up on the level of creating the atomic bomb.

I actually wonder if it's not possible that a group of geth mining a remote asteroid way out on the fringes of the galaxy became noticed by Sovereign or another Reaper, who analyzed their potential for being developed into useful tools and injected them some minor but malicious code that was then replicated throughout their neural net when they returned to quarian space and caused the initial elevation to awareness. Perhaps the quarian engineers weren't to blame at all, maybe they did do everything correctly and by the books? It would make the situation even more tragic.

edit: to be clear, I am talking about a precursor causal intervention to that of the heretic virus.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 11:01 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yes, but I'd also be impressed at how unknowingly advanced my work became.

[Onyx Jaguar]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I call it good science

Accidental good science?

The upgrading to make it better, the accidental part is accidental. 

Advancement is good science.

Accidentally becoming aware?  Lucky science.

[Schroing]

As I said in the other thread, the Geth have demonstrated themselves to be both sentient and self-aware.
At the point that such evolved, any status as 'simple machines,' or 'property' was revoked. While not biologically alive, they are so philosophically. Furthermore, with a complex nervous system that differs extensively from anything a human would be capable of 'relating' to, arguments that they lack emotion or other familiar traits are illogical and are, in fact, a result of the very anthropomorphism that you (whoever it is I'm talking about, you!) purport to be the opposite side's reasoning.

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Edit: You should also be aware that the term "natural" is ultimately meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Modifié par Schroing, 08 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[marshalleck]

Schroing wrote...

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Just take Legion's word for it. The geth feel it was a mistake, they took the violence much too far.

[CmdrFenix83]

marshalleck wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mutation is essentially faulty programming and that is a naturally occuring process

Evolution is natural.  When a machine does something differing from it's strictly designated programming, that's not a naturally occuring thing.  It's a mistake made by someone else.  Nature occurs with or without human or sapient interferance.  The Geth happened because Quarian programs interacted in a manner they didn't desire.  It was programmer error.  This error didn't just 'happen', it wasn't natural, it was a malfunction due to improper programming.

The entire incedent can be blamed on the individuals responsible for designing, programming, and upgrading the Geth.  Personally, these individuals are criminals in my eyes, those that makes a **** up on the level of creating the atomic bomb.

I actually wonder if it's not possible that a group of geth mining a remote asteroid way out on the fringes of the galaxy became noticed by Sovereign or another Reaper, who analyzed their potential for being developed into useful tools and injected them some minor but malicious code that was then replicated throughout their neural net when they returned to quarian space and caused the initial elevation to awareness. Perhaps the quarian engineers weren't to blame at all, maybe they did do everything correctly and by the books? It would make the situation even more tragic.

edit: to be clear, I am talking about a precursor causal intervention to that of the heretic virus.

That's... not out of the realm of possiblity here.  We know Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni over a thousand years ago, and they weren't even a part of the known galaxy yet.  Who's to say he didn't run into the Geth sooner than that and do some... reprogramming to *give* them sentience.  That's quite an interesting theory, and there's no evidence to prove or disprove it, either.   Hrm.

[CmdrFenix83]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I don't see why not.  It wouldn't have to necessarily be done on a remote planet on the fringes either.

This as well.  Perhaps he let himself be discovered by a few Quarians, indoctrinated them, and then set them loose with their new ideas for programming self-aware machines.  Hrm...

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

As I said in the other thread, the Geth have demonstrated themselves to be both sentient and self-aware.
At the point that such evolved, any status as 'simple machines,' or 'property' was revoked. While not biologically alive, they are so philosophically. Furthermore, with a complex nervous system that differs extensively from anything a human would be capable of 'relating' to, arguments that they lack emotion or other familiar traits are illogical and are, in fact, a result of the very anthropomorphism that you (whoever it is I'm talking about, you!) purport to be the opposite side's reasoning.

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Edit: You should also be aware that the term "natural" is ultimately meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Again, your statement comes back to my original post here.  "Is a self-aware toaster alive?"  You say yes, I say no.

[GuardianAngel470]

 This arguement about whether or not the geth are sapient is meaningless.  If the Devs wanted the geth to be known as non-sapient, they would have put them in the conveniently named Non-Sapient section of the ME1 Codex.  As it stands, they are in the Non-Council Races section.  This is what the Codex page says about the Geth:

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked AIs.  They were created by the Quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. When the geth showed signs of self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them.  The geth won the resulting war. This example has led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligences in galactic society.  
The geth possess a unique distributed intelligence. An individual has rudimentary animal instincts, but as their numbers and proximity increase, the apparent intelligence of each individual improves.  In groups, they can reason, analyze situations, and use tactics as well as any organic race.
Geth space is located at the trailing end of the Perseus Arm, beyond the lawless Terminus Systems.  The Perseus Veil, and obscuring 'dark nebula' of opaque gas and dust, lies between their space and the Terminus Systems."

Again, this was in the Non-Council Races section of the ME1 Codex.  ME2 adds the Geth Government and Culture sections to the Non-primary codex entries.  The devs say they are sapient, and they made the game.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[GuardianAngel470]

d

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mutation is essentially faulty programming and that is a naturally occuring process

Evolution is natural.  When a machine does something differing from it's strictly designated programming, that's not a naturally occuring thing.  It's a mistake made by someone else.  Nature occurs with or without human or sapient interferance.  The Geth happened because Quarian programs interacted in a manner they didn't desire.  It was programmer error.  This error didn't just 'happen', it wasn't natural, it was a malfunction due to improper programming.

The entire incedent can be blamed on the individuals responsible for designing, programming, and upgrading the Geth.  Personally, these individuals are criminals in my eyes, those that makes a **** up on the level of creating the atomic bomb.

I actually wonder if it's not possible that a group of geth mining a remote asteroid way out on the fringes of the galaxy became noticed by Sovereign or another Reaper, who analyzed their potential for being developed into useful tools and injected them some minor but malicious code that was then replicated throughout their neural net when they returned to quarian space and caused the initial elevation to awareness. Perhaps the quarian engineers weren't to blame at all, maybe they did do everything correctly and by the books? It would make the situation even more tragic.

edit: to be clear, I am talking about a precursor causal intervention to that of the heretic virus.

That's... not out of the realm of possiblity here.  We know Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni over a thousand years ago, and they weren't even a part of the known galaxy yet.  Who's to say he didn't run into the Geth sooner than that and do some... reprogramming to *give* them sentience.  That's quite an interesting theory, and there's no evidence to prove or disprove it, either.   Hrm.

I find this very unlikely at best. The Heretics - the reaper worshippers - were clearly a split from the much larger Geth faction. If the above had happened, such wouldn't be the case. The normal Geth would be a split from the Heretics, or more likely, wouldn't even exist. By spreading sentience through such a virus, they would've also been capable of simply spreading the Heretic virus at the same time.
Legion, as such, logically wouldn't exist. In fact, even the positioning of the geth factions as we know them points directly in the other direction; normal Geth inhabiting the homeworld, and the other geth having built/converted various space stations in the space between stars. So Legion would need to be lying completely, and, in fact, a Reaper/Heretic agent.
Which is stupid.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

As I said in the other thread, the Geth have demonstrated themselves to be both sentient and self-aware.
At the point that such evolved, any status as 'simple machines,' or 'property' was revoked. While not biologically alive, they are so philosophically. Furthermore, with a complex nervous system that differs extensively from anything a human would be capable of 'relating' to, arguments that they lack emotion or other familiar traits are illogical and are, in fact, a result of the very anthropomorphism that you (whoever it is I'm talking about, you!) purport to be the opposite side's reasoning.

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Edit: You should also be aware that the term "natural" is ultimately meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Again, your statement comes back to my original post here.  "Is a self-aware toaster alive?"  You say yes, I say no.

The word 'alive' needs to be clearly defined for this discussion to go any further.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 This arguement about whether or not the geth are sapient is meaningless.  <snip>

No one's saying they weren't sapient, sentient, or aware of their own existence.  I don't consider a walking-talking toaster to be any more alive than Shepard's pistol.  They're just incredibly advanced programs that are capable of learning and imitating real life.  I don't care how smart or advanced it is.  It's a machine and therefor is not 'life' in my eyes.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 This arguement about whether or not the geth are sapient is meaningless. 

No one's saying they weren't sapient, sentient, or aware of their own existence...They're just incredibly advanced programs that are capable of learning and imitating real life. 

What? Both of those statements can't be true.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

I find this very unlikely at best. The Heretics - the reaper worshippers - were clearly a split from the much larger Geth faction. If the above had happened, such wouldn't be the case. The normal Geth would be a split from the Heretics, or more likely, wouldn't even exist. By spreading sentience through such a virus, they would've also been capable of simply spreading the Heretic virus at the same time.
Legion, as such, logically wouldn't exist. In fact, even the positioning of the geth factions as we know them points directly in the other direction; normal Geth inhabiting the homeworld, and the other geth having built/converted various space stations in the space between stars. So Legion would need to be lying completely, and, in fact, a Reaper/Heretic agent.
Which is stupid.

No no.  The Geth, before they were aware of their own existence, were encountered by Sovereign, most likely through indoctrinated Quarians.  No one said he programmed them all to follow Sovereign, just that it might hint that he nudged their programming to the point of thinking for themselves, figuring they'd be much more useful than the Rachni had been.  There's no evidence to suggest one way or another, it's just an interesting theory.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

I find this very unlikely at best. The Heretics - the reaper worshippers - were clearly a split from the much larger Geth faction. If the above had happened, such wouldn't be the case. The normal Geth would be a split from the Heretics, or more likely, wouldn't even exist. By spreading sentience through such a virus, they would've also been capable of simply spreading the Heretic virus at the same time.
Legion, as such, logically wouldn't exist. In fact, even the positioning of the geth factions as we know them points directly in the other direction; normal Geth inhabiting the homeworld, and the other geth having built/converted various space stations in the space between stars. So Legion would need to be lying completely, and, in fact, a Reaper/Heretic agent.
Which is stupid.

No no.  The Geth, before they were aware of their own existence, were encountered by Sovereign, most likely through indoctrinated Quarians.  No one said he programmed them all to follow Sovereign, just that it might hint that he nudged their programming to the point of thinking for themselves, figuring they'd be much more useful than the Rachni had been.  There's no evidence to suggest one way or another, it's just an interesting theory.

If he 'nudged them,' rather than actively programming them, he's clearly incompetent. Cartoonishly so. He lost millions, if not billions of soldiers by doing so.
Or would have, if it'd happened.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

As I said in the other thread, the Geth have demonstrated themselves to be both sentient and self-aware.
At the point that such evolved, any status as 'simple machines,' or 'property' was revoked. While not biologically alive, they are so philosophically. Furthermore, with a complex nervous system that differs extensively from anything a human would be capable of 'relating' to, arguments that they lack emotion or other familiar traits are illogical and are, in fact, a result of the very anthropomorphism that you (whoever it is I'm talking about, you!) purport to be the opposite side's reasoning.

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Edit: You should also be aware that the term "natural" is ultimately meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Again, your statement comes back to my original post here.  "Is a self-aware toaster alive?"  You say yes, I say no.

The word 'alive' needs to be clearly defined for this discussion to go any further.

Living.  All living things need food, oxygen, water, etc.  These things define life.  A machine is a machine.  I don't consider any AI 'alive'.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

As I said in the other thread, the Geth have demonstrated themselves to be both sentient and self-aware.
At the point that such evolved, any status as 'simple machines,' or 'property' was revoked. While not biologically alive, they are so philosophically. Furthermore, with a complex nervous system that differs extensively from anything a human would be capable of 'relating' to, arguments that they lack emotion or other familiar traits are illogical and are, in fact, a result of the very anthropomorphism that you (whoever it is I'm talking about, you!) purport to be the opposite side's reasoning.

Whether or not the Morning War was justified is difficult to say. I don't really know enough about the exact circumstances.

Edit: You should also be aware that the term "natural" is ultimately meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Again, your statement comes back to my original post here.  "Is a self-aware toaster alive?"  You say yes, I say no.

The word 'alive' needs to be clearly defined for this discussion to go any further.

Living.  All living things need food, oxygen, water, etc.  These things define life.  A machine is a machine.  I don't consider any AI 'alive'.

In which case, yes, you're correct. They are not alive.
I fail to see exactly how such would influence your judgement in any way, however.