423 réponses à ce sujet

[FoxMcKalen]

badjezus007 wrote...

To the moron who said humans are machines. No we are not machines. In our body chemical reactions take place all the time. In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

...That's probably the weakest argument I've seen in my entire life.

What is a machine? It's a construct designed to carry out a task. Can you argue that the human body does not fit this description? And "We're not made of metal!" doesn't count, because it doesn't matter.

[marshalleck]

badjezus007 wrote...
In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Citation needed.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Its not a tool its not a property they act by their own will, anything trying to prove otherwise doesn't make sense.

[Schroing]

badjezus007 wrote...

To the moron who said humans are machines. No we are not machines. In our body chemical reactions take place all the time. In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Whether or not something is a machine has nothing to do with chemical equations. Try again.

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

NOTHING OWNS THE GETH, THEY ARE SELF AWARE OF THEMSELVES, they killed the Quarians when they tried to excercise their will on them.  This has granted freedom and shown that they have will themselves.

This whole thread was made stating the Quarians were wrong for trying to put down THEIR MACHINES.  Every single Geth at that time was a piece of property.  They all began to malfunction.  You're thinking about them in present time, when they're their own civilization pantomiming life on worlds they took over.  

Take a deep breath and control your nerd-rage.

[Canned Bullets]

They tried to deactivate them, maybe they were going to tweak the Geth software to dumb them down.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 09 mars 2010 - 12:07 .

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Define living.  There's two major ones.

Getting tired of repeating myself.  I stated on the last page

Living.  All living things need food, oxygen, water, etc.  These things
define life.  A machine is a machine.  I don't consider any AI 'alive'.

Yes but an alternate and much more relevant definition describes the act of living as:

the act or condition of a person or thing that lives

Going through the day, completing daily tasks, seeing tomorrow, these are all things the geth do.  It is irrelevant whether or not they are biologically alive, you can talk to one, hold a conversation, learn about one, all things a SAPIENT being can do.  That is why sapience is more important that biology.  He is alive, in that he is not an inanimate object incapable of learning.  Your definition for what deserves the rights of SAPIENCE is flawed.

[Schroing]

Shandepared wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...
In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Citation needed.

Do chemical reactions take place in a geth's "mind" is the important question here. Answer: no.

The answer is actually yes.
If they have a power source, chemical (sorry; reactions) are taking place.

Modifié par Schroing, 09 mars 2010 - 12:07 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Tehy tried to deactivate them, maybe they were going to tweak the Geth software to dumb them down.

Exactly this.  Fixing the malfunction.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 09 mars 2010 - 12:05 .

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

NOTHING OWNS THE GETH, THEY ARE SELF AWARE OF THEMSELVES, they killed the Quarians when they tried to excercise their will on them.  This has granted freedom and shown that they have will themselves.

This whole thread was made stating the Quarians were wrong for trying to put down THEIR MACHINES.  Every single Geth at that time was a piece of property.  They all began to malfunction.  You're thinking about them in present time, when they're their own civilization pantomiming life on worlds they took over.  

Take a deep breath and control your nerd-rage.

You aren't recognizing their sapience, again.  They were the equivalent of small children during the Morning War, trying to kill them (because that is what permanent deactivation means) is wrong.

[marshalleck]

Shandepared wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...
In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Citation needed.

Do chemical reactions take place in a geth's "mind" is the important question here. Answer: no. Their minds are purely software. In reality there is no evidence that is is even possible to have a mind without having an organic brain. Software and brains are not the same thing, not at all.

I'm not making any definitive or categorical statements here. There's nothing in the codex, dialogue, anything anywhere in the game that gets down and dirty with the technical details of how gethss 'minds' work, whether those are just CPUs or something more complex. We do know that they aren't an inseparable pairing of blue-box hardware and software like Council species' AI.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 12:07 .

[Schroing]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

I've looked at every single post you've made in this thread, and you have not once explained why not being alive, by your definition, means that you lack rights.
You have simply explained that they are not alive in many different words many times over, by your own definition.

My computer has no rights.  My desk has no rights.  Factory machinery has no rights.  Geth are just advanced machines.  They are not alive, and therefor have no rights.

W
H
Y
?

Because it's a machine.  That's all the justification I need.  It's a tool, property.

Again.
I repeat myself, for perhaps the fifth time.
HOW does failing to meet your definition of life AT ALL classify it as being a tool, property?

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...
In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Citation needed.

Do chemical reactions take place in a geth's "mind" is the important question here. Answer: no. Their minds are purely software. In reality there is no evidence that is is even possible to have a mind without having an organic brain. Software and brains are not the same thing, not at all.

You're arguing against the science, I'm talking about the lore.  The ME lore holds that AIs are indeed capable of emotion, whether or not it is possible in real life.  This thread is a discussion about the ME lore, that is the only fact source relevant here.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You aren't recognizing their sapience, again.  They were the equivalent of small children during the Morning War, trying to kill them (because that is what permanent deactivation means) is wrong.

::yawn::  Back in circles.  My very first post stated this and every thread about this topic in a single, simple question.  "Do you consider self-aware toasters alive?"  I don't.  You aren't going to convince me as such, nor was I asking anyone to try.  I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just defending my stance, and have been since my first post.  I don't care that it can think.  I don't care that it can reason.  It's a machine.  Period. 

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You aren't recognizing their sapience, again.  They were the equivalent of small children during the Morning War, trying to kill them (because that is what permanent deactivation means) is wrong.

::yawn::  Back in circles.  My very first post stated this and every thread about this topic in a single, simple question.  "Do you consider self-aware toasters alive?"  I don't.  You aren't going to convince me as such, nor was I asking anyone to try.  I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just defending my stance, and have been since my first post.  I don't care that it can think.  I don't care that it can reason.  It's a machine.  Period. 

You -still- haven't explained why being alive has any pertinence to this discussion and rights.

[Inverness Moon]

marshalleck wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...
In geth, do chemical reactions take place? No.

Citation needed.

Do chemical reactions take place in a geth's "mind" is the important question here. Answer: no. Their minds are purely software. In reality there is no evidence that is is even possible to have a mind without having an organic brain. Software and brains are not the same thing, not at all.

I'm not making any definitive or categorical statements here. There's nothing in the codex, dialogue, anything anywhere in the game that gets down and dirty with the technical details of how gethss 'minds' work, whether those are just CPUs or something more complex. We do know that they aren't an inseparable pairing of blue-box hardware and software like Council species' AI.

Actually, Legion quite clearly says that the geth are purely software, not a combination of hardware and software like organics or AIs like EDI. Codex also says that because of that, geth can be installed on my system.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You aren't recognizing their sapience, again.  They were the equivalent of small children during the Morning War, trying to kill them (because that is what permanent deactivation means) is wrong.

::yawn::  Back in circles.  My very first post stated this and every thread about this topic in a single, simple question.  "Do you consider self-aware toasters alive?"  I don't.  You aren't going to convince me as such, nor was I asking anyone to try.  I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just defending my stance, and have been since my first post.  I don't care that it can think.  I don't care that it can reason.  It's a machine.  Period. 

Then let's agree to disagree if it is going nowhere.  We'll see who's right in ME3.  I think being self aware does classify being alive.  I also think you don't have to be alive to deserve the basic rights of sentient life.  You disagree and it has become obvious I can't dissuade you.  Let's leave it at that.

[GuardianAngel470]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You aren't recognizing their sapience, again.  They were the equivalent of small children during the Morning War, trying to kill them (because that is what permanent deactivation means) is wrong.

::yawn::  Back in circles.  My very first post stated this and every thread about this topic in a single, simple question.  "Do you consider self-aware toasters alive?"  I don't.  You aren't going to convince me as such, nor was I asking anyone to try.  I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just defending my stance, and have been since my first post.  I don't care that it can think.  I don't care that it can reason.  It's a machine.  Period. 

You -still- haven't explained why being alive has any pertinence to this discussion and rights.

Schroing, lets just drop it.  He's not going to change his mind and we aren't going to change his.  Pointless discussion is clogging up boiwares servers.

[GuardianAngel470]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Even Legion said no two races are the same. So we have to look at the Geth Sentient Machines for now, they are selfaware but not alive. Was it wrong for the Quarians to attack them? No. Was it the best solutions available? Hell no.

It was absolutely the best solution available. What would you have done, nothing? Remember: at the time you'd have no idea if the geth were going to attack or not, but if you stand there and do nothing then you ensure that if the geth do become violent that many many people will die. The most reasonable course of action is to 'attack' while the enemy is numerically disadvantaged and disorganized.

Very valid points, essenitally the Quarians where useing them as slaves once the Geth became smart enough.  And the Quarians did'nt like the idea of slavery.  I think we can agree there.

Now, any ethnic group in slavery or oppression is likely to rise up and attack their masters.  I think we can agree there too.

But the Geth are not driven by irrational emotion like we are.  So what I would have done is while maintaining Military standby to attack the Geth if they tried anything, I would try to reasonably talk to them and try to work stuff out.  I think the Geth would be reasonable, unlike many groups of people on this earth today, such as Islamic Terrorists.  If we try negoiations they attack or take advantage of us regardless, not like Geth.

I tried this same reasoning on shandepared earlier in the thread, he's just going to say that the consequences of attempting peace are higher than going to war, even though we all know what happened when they went to war.

[alphax1]

I keep seeing that "The Geth are an accident therefore they are not alive" or "Their programming was faulty therefore they are not sentient"



This is a logical fallacy... an epic logical fallacy...



Geth have all the hallmarks of sentient life.

1. they are self deterministic... Legion's faction has decided they will build their own future... they are doing things that are far beyond any programming... and yes by their original design standards that is faulty...

2. they react to outside stimuli not part of their original programming... aka they Legion can form opinions on things like how he sees Cdr. Shepard.

3. they can form and act on their desires... somewhat similar to no1 but while no1 is looking into the future the Geth can also make snap judgments like in the heretic base to trust Shepard's judgment...

4. While the Geth do not have emotions like organic species they still have something approximating emotions or else they would have annihilated the Quarians if all they were were faulty programs or is the decision to stop just a fault in a fault? Same thing with what Legion says to Shepard in his code being 'superior' over Saren and Sovereign... That takes a judgment call... an 'emotional' judgment call...

5. Geth act rationally based on their beliefs... a simple program wouldn't know when to stop... wouldn't know restraint... heck wouldn't care about itself since it's not self aware beyond its parameters... but take the Heretics, they were programming a computer virus to rewrite all Geth to worship the reapers. They weren't doing this because the Geth were threatening them and if they had merely been programs they wouldn't even have come up with the idea...



Now none of these factors by its lonesome is indicative of sentience... you can make a predictive program, a program that simulates decisions based on outside stimuli and etc... but combine everything...



Organic life and evolution is very analogous to what the Geth went through... and evolution in general is 'accidental' and 'faulty' in nature due to improper transcriptions over the generations of an organism. So saying the Geth aren't alive due to accident or faulty programming is false... if anything it bolsters the argument that they are alive and sentient...



Finally there is the argument of might makes right... The Geth fought and won a war against the Quarians for their very existence. Legion is equally willing to either wipe out the Heretics or subtly reprogram them after they proved to be a threat to the Geth... So the Geth seem pretty content to put a mechanical boot up the behind of anyone who tries to 'aggressively question' their status as sentients...

[Inverness Moon]

Someone here is trying to apply the definition of organic life to a synthetic, that is not how it works.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...



It's not genocide unless you consider them people.

Reminds me of how slaves were considered less than a person.