423 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Inverness Moon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I think those were in fact destroyed, but if the geth were advanced enough then destroying the databases would serve a strategic purpose, to crush quarian morale.  

You realize that this implies motive beyond simple self-defense, specifically targeting quarian culture for eradication. It supports an argument that the massacre not only of quarians but their civilization and culture was intentional, it supports a claim of genocide being perpetrated against the quarians. Especially in conjunction with killing non-combatants.

Crushing enemy moral is not an indication of of genocidal intent. 

Targeting cultural artifacts is though when it's paired with the slaughter of an ethnic group with no distinction being made regarding combatant status.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 01:03 .

[wulf3n]

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

So you believe that just because something doesn't question its own existence, then it's ok to kill it?

Again, you're reading into this what you want to.  Tali said they
ordered a SHUT DOWN, of all Geth.  Not destruction.  Shut down and
recall.  Stop them all from attaining sapience, and then take apart and
figure out what went wrong with the ones that did gain sapience.  

What about the ones that already obtained sapience? shutting them down and reprograming them to be "dumber' is effectively killing them.

By your logic, i could, against your will, labotimize you, and not have done anything wrong. Even though, the unique inidividual that you were, is no longer in existince, your still technically alive.

It seems, that a lot of people seem to be idolizing "organic" life, but when you really look at how humans work (at least how we understand it at the moment) we're not that different to computer programs. Our brains use electric signals, to pass around data, just like computers.We are programmed, similar to computers, however our programs adapt and expand, based upon our experiences.

To think that "Life", and all the rights we assosciate with it, is restricted to organic beings...well thats just stupid.

to quote a line from the movie Shooter "Your moral compass is so ****ed up, i would be suprised if you make it out of this room!"

Modifié par wulf3n, 09 mars 2010 - 01:04 .

[Schroing]

marshalleck wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I think those were in fact destroyed, but if the geth were advanced enough then destroying the databases would serve a strategic purpose, to crush quarian morale.  

You realize that this implies motive beyond simple self-defense, specifically targeting quarian culture for eradication. It supports an argument that the massacre not only of quarians but their civilization and culture was intentional, it supports a claim of genocide being perpetrated against the quarians. Especially in conjunction with killing non-combatants.

Crushing enemy moral is not an indication of of genocidal intent. 

Targeting cultural artifacts is though when it's paired with the slaughter of an ethnic group with no distinction being made regarding combatant status.

Again, where are you getting this from? Where in the codex?

[marshalleck]

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I think those were in fact destroyed, but if the geth were advanced enough then destroying the databases would serve a strategic purpose, to crush quarian morale.  

You realize that this implies motive beyond simple self-defense, specifically targeting quarian culture for eradication. It supports an argument that the massacre not only of quarians but their civilization and culture was intentional, it supports a claim of genocide being perpetrated against the quarians. Especially in conjunction with killing non-combatants.

Crushing enemy moral is not an indication of of genocidal intent. 

You don't know much about war, do you Marshall?  Crushing an enemy's morale comes in all shapes, whether its by cutting a supply line or defeating a superior force.  Crushing an enemy's morale was vital to success in any war in the history of man, that's why the US, GB, Canada, and the other allied powers bombed civilian targets in WWII. The cities they bombed had no strategic or military value other than the fact that they were symbols of home to the germans and the Japanese. Destroying them was wrong, but not genocidal.

EDIT: Thermopylae is a perfect example of the amazing power of morale, and what happens when it is crushed.  Though the battle was technically a defeat the means of the defeat rallied the Greeks against the persians who's morale was severely weaked by by their "Victory".  Knowing you won only because of treachery and that this small force could have easily beat you is very demoralizing.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 09 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[Inverness Moon]

 

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Schroing wrote...
None of this is ever stated. There was a war. It was a very large war, and yes, billions died, but it certainly wasn't genocide. It should be noted that the distinction comes mostly from intent, motive, rather than action.

I agree with this. The intent of the geth was continued existence, far more noble a thing that what the quarians intended. This is part of the reason that I support the geth over the quarians.

Of course you can argue that the quarian intent was to shut down their faulty machines before they became sentient. But then you have to wonder what happened to the ones that they knew were sentient. And you also have to wonder at what point did they realize the geth were sentient, and if they even cared.

It should be noted Inverse that the Migrant Fleet Quarians aren't the same as the Morning War quarians.  I've said elsewhere but as far as I'm concerned the only quarians that should have been forced into exile were the Morning War quarians.  Not siding with the Migrant Fleet Quarians is foolish, especially since they are best equipped help evacuate civilians during the war with the reapers.  

I'm just saying that it would be a strategic mistake to side with one or the other, that peace should be achieved for the good of the galaxy. You don't have to listen to me though, it's not like I can force you to do the smart thing (kidding!!!).

That is true. And I like the quarians and think they should get their homeworld back through peaceful means

I suppose I didn't phrase that well enough. What I meant was, if it came down to a choice between supporting the geth or the quarians, I would choose the geth. Though I would certainly prefer building a house for Tali on Rannoch.

I also suggest reading Geth Infiltrator, great story, google it. :innocent:

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[GuardianAngel470]

wulf3n wrote...

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

So you believe that just because something doesn't question its own existence, then it's ok to kill it?

Again, you're reading into this what you want to.  Tali said they
ordered a SHUT DOWN, of all Geth.  Not destruction.  Shut down and
recall.  Stop them all from attaining sapience, and then take apart and
figure out what went wrong with the ones that did gain sapience.  

What about the ones that already obtained sapience? shutting them down and reprograming them to be "dumber' is effectively killing them.

By your logic, i could, against your will, labotimize you, and not have done anything wrong. Even though, the unique inidividual that you were, is no longer in existince, your still technically alive.

It seems, that a lot of people seem to be idolizing "organic" life, but when you really look at how humans work (at least how we understand it at the moment) we're not that different to computer programs. Our brains use electric signals, to pass around data, just like computers.We are programmed, similar to computers, however our programs adapt and expand, based upon our experiences.

To think that "Life", and all the rights we assosciate with it, is restricted to organic beings...well thats just stupid.

to quote a line from the movie Shooter "Your moral compass is so ****ed up, i would be suprised if you make it out of this room!"

Tali's exact words were Permanently Deactivate, just played ME1 a couple of days ago, so yes, in this case it did mean kill.  And dismantling them definitely means kill.

[Schroing]

marshalleck wrote...

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

It didn't happen during the war, it happened after the geth had attained victory and secured the homeworld. Which changes things a bit...

[walk0nwalls]

True, I agree the quarians deserved it. That said, do they deserve to STILL be floating out in the ether 300 years later?



I think it's time guys. Kissy kissy make up. Geth get an asteroid.

[marshalleck]

Schroing wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

It didn't happen during the war, it happened after the geth had attained victory and secured the homeworld. Which changes things a bit...

Makes it even more incriminating. So much for the already flimsy "morale" argument.

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

 

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Schroing wrote...
None of this is ever stated. There was a war. It was a very large war, and yes, billions died, but it certainly wasn't genocide. It should be noted that the distinction comes mostly from intent, motive, rather than action.

I agree with this. The intent of the geth was continued existence, far more noble a thing that what the quarians intended. This is part of the reason that I support the geth over the quarians.

Of course you can argue that the quarian intent was to shut down their faulty machines before they became sentient. But then you have to wonder what happened to the ones that they knew were sentient. And you also have to wonder at what point did they realize the geth were sentient, and if they even cared.

It should be noted Inverse that the Migrant Fleet Quarians aren't the same as the Morning War quarians.  I've said elsewhere but as far as I'm concerned the only quarians that should have been forced into exile were the Morning War quarians.  Not siding with the Migrant Fleet Quarians is foolish, especially since they are best equipped help evacuate civilians during the war with the reapers.  

I'm just saying that it would be a strategic mistake to side with one or the other, that peace should be achieved for the good of the galaxy. You don't have to listen to me though, it's not like I can force you to do the smart thing (kidding!!!).

That is true. And I like the quarians and think they should get their homeworld back through peaceful means

I suppose I didn't phrase that well enough. What I meant was, if it came down to a choice between supporting the geth or the quarians, I would choose the geth. Though I would certainly prefer building a house for Tali on Rannoch.

I also suggest reading Geth Infiltrator, great story, google it. :innocent:

I honestly don't think I could side with either side.  On the one hand I've got tali, my LI, and on the other I've got the victorious victims, the geth, and legion.  I think if it came to war I'd just sit it out, let them solve it themselves. 

Plus, if I sided one way or the other the inevitably victorious geth might not help against the reapers.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You don't know much about war, do you Marshall?  Crushing an enemy's morale comes in all shapes, whether its by cutting a supply line or defeating a superior force.  Crushing an enemy's morale was vital to success in any war in the history of man, that's why the US, GB, Canada, and the other allied powers bombed civilian targets in WWII. The cities they bombed had no strategic or military value other than the fact that they were symbols of home to the germans and the Japanese. Destroying them was wrong, but not genocidal.

EDIT: Thermopylae is a perfect example of the amazing power of morale, and what happens when it is crushed.  Though the battle was technically a defeat the means of the defeat rallied the Greeks against the persians who's morale was severely weaked by by their "Victory".  Knowing you won only because of treachery and that this small force could have easily beat you is very demoralizing.

Because killing billions of women and children just isn't demoralizing enough, right?

[Schroing]

marshalleck wrote...

Schroing wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

It didn't happen during the war, it happened after the geth had attained victory and secured the homeworld. Which changes things a bit...

Makes it even more incriminating. So much for the already flimsy "morale" argument.

I'm sorry; do we know their motivations? No. We don't. We haven't even seen the quarian homeworld, before or after. The Geth may very well have simply plowed it down, either being unaware or simply uncaring, needing the space for additional databases of their own.
There's too many possibilities. It's ridiculous to look at this and make any sort of claim; it's proof of nothing.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

Schroing wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

It didn't happen during the war, it happened after the geth had attained victory and secured the homeworld. Which changes things a bit...

Makes it even more incriminating. So much for the already flimsy "morale" argument.

Where does it say that it happened after the war?

Also, I never said the morale argument was sound. In fact, I pretty much gave you a loophole you could exploit when I proposed it.  I said that If the get were advanced enough, which I have no idea one way or the other, then the morale argument could be made.

[applehug]

On a side note AI's are banned in citadel space. Were the Quarians wrong for following Galactic laws?

[Schroing]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You don't know much about war, do you Marshall?  Crushing an enemy's morale comes in all shapes, whether its by cutting a supply line or defeating a superior force.  Crushing an enemy's morale was vital to success in any war in the history of man, that's why the US, GB, Canada, and the other allied powers bombed civilian targets in WWII. The cities they bombed had no strategic or military value other than the fact that they were symbols of home to the germans and the Japanese. Destroying them was wrong, but not genocidal.

EDIT: Thermopylae is a perfect example of the amazing power of morale, and what happens when it is crushed.  Though the battle was technically a defeat the means of the defeat rallied the Greeks against the persians who's morale was severely weaked by by their "Victory".  Knowing you won only because of treachery and that this small force could have easily beat you is very demoralizing.

Because killing billions of women and children just isn't demoralizing enough, right?

When were noncombatants stated to have died? When were numbers of such given? How can we even remove women and children from the combatant territory, in this scenario?
They might not have been holding guns and shooting, but they're still a threat. A child can write code; women most certainly can. In an AI war that's a dangerous thing.

[marshalleck]

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.



It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You don't know much about war, do you Marshall?  Crushing an enemy's morale comes in all shapes, whether its by cutting a supply line or defeating a superior force.  Crushing an enemy's morale was vital to success in any war in the history of man, that's why the US, GB, Canada, and the other allied powers bombed civilian targets in WWII. The cities they bombed had no strategic or military value other than the fact that they were symbols of home to the germans and the Japanese. Destroying them was wrong, but not genocidal.

EDIT: Thermopylae is a perfect example of the amazing power of morale, and what happens when it is crushed.  Though the battle was technically a defeat the means of the defeat rallied the Greeks against the persians who's morale was severely weaked by by their "Victory".  Knowing you won only because of treachery and that this small force could have easily beat you is very demoralizing.

Because killing billions of women and children just isn't demoralizing enough, right?

We don't know enough about the geth at the time period to make an accurate assessment of why they would destroy the databases, but no, killing women and children isn't demoralizing, its invigorating.  If you kill women and children then you've just given the enemy a new reason to fight.  The bombing of cities that I mentioned was valuable because you are destroying the buildings, symbolic objects that display what it is to be German.  This is our Memorial, gov't building, museum, etc.  The attack on Japan was significant for a different reason.  It was a show of force that the Japanese couldn't ignore.  There's also a possibility that it was done for immoral reasons, but that isn't the subject of this thread.

[Schroing]

marshalleck wrote...

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.

It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

It's not a one or the other situation. I can disapprove of both parties, can't I?
Regardless, the quarian started the war. The geth ended it. For now, it's as simple as that. Until some sort of actual...er...documentation? Of the war is produced by bioware, I will and do lean towards the camp of the geth making a slightly more forgivable mistake. They both made mistakes, and they're both forgivable...the geth are just moreso.

Modifié par Schroing, 09 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[wulf3n]

marshalleck wrote...

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.

It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

I think whats in question, is whether or not the "Intentions" of the geth were to wipe out the entire quarian race. The quarians may have suffered extreme civilian losses during the war, that doesn't mean the geth were trying to wipe them out, however we know the intentions of the Quarians were to deactivate ALL geth.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

We don't know enough about the geth at the time period to make an accurate assessment of why they would destroy the databases, but no, killing women and children isn't demoralizing, its invigorating. 

Yeah, I'm sure that's of great comfort. You're an idiot, I'm sorry. I hate to resort to mud slinging but you've got to be kidding. We're not talking about a few isolated incidents that spark outrage, we're talking about entire quarian worlds burning.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 01:27 .

[Inverness Moon]

marshalleck wrote...

Schroing wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The codex entry for quarians, religion subheading

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks when they took over.

It didn't happen during the war, it happened after the geth had attained victory and secured the homeworld. Which changes things a bit...

Makes it even more incriminating. So much for the already flimsy "morale" argument.

Hardly, that statement is ambiguous. Was it after the quarians were exiled or when the geth gained control of part of the planet during the war?

Schroing wrote...
I'm sorry; do we know their motivations? No. We don't. We haven't even seen the quarian homeworld, before or after. The Geth may very well have simply plowed it down, either being unaware or simply uncaring, needing the space for additional databases of their own.There's too many possibilities. It's ridiculous to look at this and make any sort of claim; it's proof of nothing.

You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.

It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

This isn't about approving of genocide.  I don't support genocide in the slightest, but what the quarians attempted to do was very, very wrong, and it's only fitting that it would backfire.  And I'm sure there are millions of quarians that didn't own geth and thus didn't try to permanently deactivate one but speaking with tali gave me the impression that having a household geth was common, and thus most of the population attempted genocide.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

We don't know enough about the geth at the time period to make an accurate assessment of why they would destroy the databases, but no, killing women and children isn't demoralizing, its invigorating. 

Yeah, I'm sure that's of great comfort. You're an idiot, I'm sorry. I hate to resort to mud slinging but you've got to be kidding. We're not talking about a few isolated incidents that spark outrage, we're talking about entire quarian worlds burning.

Yeah, and any good commander would use those fallen colonies to their advantage, at least initially.  If you have nothing left but you still have to fight you find something to fight for, at least in their case.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.

It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

This isn't about approving of genocide.  I don't support genocide in the slightest, but what the quarians attempted to do was very, very wrong, and it's only fitting that it would backfire.  And I'm sure there are millions of quarians that didn't own geth and thus didn't try to permanently deactivate one but speaking with tali gave me the impression that having a household geth was common, and thus most of the population attempted genocide.

Here's what you said in the first post of this thread:

"This is what's called genocide, and completely unacceptable (unless you
are a ****, in which case you think it is perfectly acceptable).  The
geth responded in kind, decimating the quarian population.  they got
exactly what they were trying to do to the geth. Thus, they got what
they deserved."

Your own words. That's an absolutely stunning example of cognitive dissonance.