423 réponses à ce sujet

[Schroing]

You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

They have no reason to leave the planet. They can operate on it just as well as they can on any of the above.

[wulf3n]

Schroing wrote...

You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

They have no reason to leave the planet. They can operate on it just as well as they can on any of the above.

Yeah, but legion says, the geth dont use planets, but thats argument can be ignored if you believe legion is lying

[Schroing]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

I remember Legion saying this.  What does this mean?  That the real Geth are willing to resolve the situation with the Quarians peacfully, but under certain terms?  It has to mean this doesn't it?

Those terms would probably be "us not dying."

[Schroing]

wulf3n wrote...

Schroing wrote...

You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

They have no reason to leave the planet. They can operate on it just as well as they can on any of the above.

Yeah, but legion says, the geth dont use planets, but thats argument can be ignored if you believe legion is lying

They don't use them when they're unecessary. A space station would be equally habitable for billions of them as a planet would be; but if they're already in control of a planet, they've no reason to simply abandon it.

[Inverness Moon]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

I remember Legion saying this.  What does this mean?  That the real Geth are willing to resolve the situation with the Quarians peacfully, but under certain terms?  It has to mean this doesn't it?

If you bring Legion to the flotilla, that the geth are open to peace if there is data to suggest that coexistence is possible or desirable for the quarians. Because whenever quarians believed they could win, they have attacked geth 100% of the time.

Schroing wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Schroing wrote...

You should know that geth live in space stations, and mine asteroids. They do not need planets or their resources. They are the caretakers of Rannoch and maintain it for their creators.

They have no reason to leave the planet. They can operate on it just as well as they can on any of the above.

Yeah, but legion says, the geth dont use planets, but thats argument can be ignored if you believe legion is lying

They don't use them when they're unecessary. A space station would be equally habitable for billions of them as a planet would be; but if they're already in control of a planet, they've no reason to simply abandon it.

Legion specifically said that they only maintain mobile platforms on Rannoch to clean up the damage from the war. I get the impression that you haven't heard all of the dialogue from Legion.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 mars 2010 - 01:40 .

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Well all this thread is really about ultimately is justifying the wholesale slaughter of billions of quarians, no doubt millions of which had no desire for war against the geth and would never have morally supported enslaving a sentient species or intentionally wiping it out.

It's ridiculous to incriminate the entire quarian race on a charge of genocide, and then turn around and celebrate the exact same crime being carried out against them. You either approve of genocide or you don't.

This isn't about approving of genocide.  I don't support genocide in the slightest, but what the quarians attempted to do was very, very wrong, and it's only fitting that it would backfire.  And I'm sure there are millions of quarians that didn't own geth and thus didn't try to permanently deactivate one but speaking with tali gave me the impression that having a household geth was common, and thus most of the population attempted genocide.

Here's what you said in the first post of this thread:

"This is what's called genocide, and completely unacceptable (unless you
are a ****, in which case you think it is perfectly acceptable).  The
geth responded in kind, decimating the quarian population.  they got
exactly what they were trying to do to the geth. Thus, they got what
they deserved."

Your own words. That's an absolutely stunning example of cognitive dissonance.

Yeah, and I just repeated my self in the post you quoted.  I feel that if you are going to try something like genocide on someone then the punishment should be equal or worse.  And as i stated in another post, I was having a hard time formulating what i wanted to say in that post.  What I meant was what I just said.  If a people are willing to attempt to eradicate an entire race or creed then they deserve to be eradicated.  Their deaths would be a favor to the world/galaxy.

[Schroing]

Legion specifically said that they only maintain mobile platforms on Rannoch to clean up the damage from the war. I get the impression that you haven't heard all of the dialogue from Legion.

I'm sure I've heard it at least once, not that that means I can remember it.

[alphax1]

We can only speculate as to the nature of the Geth - Quarian conflict. From what you get from Tali and Legion and the codex entries it made Russia vs Germany look like a minor squabble. The Quarians could have been mostly of the mindset of Adm Zorah and Xen (heck if you give up the evidence half the Quarians seem to want to use the research to re enslave the Geth!) and the Geth were thus justified in their brutality since if they weren't the Quarians would have exterminated them... Or it could have been the Geth acting like Skynet and only giving up when the Quarians had all fled beyond the Veil and the Geth only moderating their position over time...



From the scant evidence it seems more the former than the latter because it was first Quarian fear and then Quarian anger and hate driving them against the Geth... fear, anger, and hate that are still very much in evidence 300 years later...

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, and I just repeated my self in the post you quoted.  I feel that if you are going to try something like genocide on someone then the punishment should be equal or worse.  And as i stated in another post, I was having a hard time formulating what i wanted to say in that post.  What I meant was what I just said.  If a people are willing to attempt to eradicate an entire race or creed then they deserve to be eradicated.  Their deaths would be a favor to the world/galaxy.

You honestly don't see the inherent conflicting ideas here? 

You condemn what you call the "genocide" of the geth, why? Because you can't justify killing an entire species based on the actions of a few? Right?

Then you say the geth turned around and did the same thing to the quarians, but they nearly succeeded. And you say "they" got what they deserved. Who? The entire quarian race deserved to be punished for the panicked outcry of a few? You think every single quarian that died was guilty of the willful, intentional destruction of an entire species?

You can't have it both ways man. What happened to the geth was wrong. What happened to the quarians was wrong. Very few deserved to die over it. Billions certainly did not.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 01:51 .

[intersect]

Genocide does not justify genocide. In my eyes the Geth had the right to defend themselves, not to slaughter innocent Quarians. It's not like every single Quarian made the decision to shut down the Geth, at least until the Geth started killing them, then the conflict spiraled out of control.

Modifié par intersect, 09 mars 2010 - 01:58 .

[alphax1]

marshalleck wrote...

You honestly don't see the inherent conflicting ideas here? 

You condemn what you call the "genocide" of the geth, why? Because you can't justify killing an entire species based on the actions of a few? Right?

Then you say the geth turned around and did the same thing to the quarians, but they nearly succeeded. And you say "they" got what they deserved. Who? The entire quarian race deserved to be punished for the panicked outcry of a few? You think every single quarian that died was guilty of the willful, intentional destruction of an entire species?

You can't have it both ways man. What happened to the geth was wrong. What happened to the quarians was wrong. Very few deserved to die over it. Billions certainly did not.

There's a difference between wrong and (un)justified though... Dropping the A bombs on Japan was wrong... hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens who had nothing to do with the war effort died... But droppin the bombs was justified becasue Japan wouldn't effing surrender and an invasion of the home islands would have cost millions of lives on both sides.

In this fictional conflict what both sides did was wrong... The Quarians wanted / want to re enslave or annihilate the Geth... The Geth proved to be stronger and almost wiped out the Quarians... Both very wrong... However in a way both sides were justified in what they did or tried to do... The Geth of course were justified becasue they were fighting for their existance and the Quarians beleived they were more putting down rogue VI's than wiping out a sentient species (at least at first... no excuse for what Xen and Zorah are pulling...) and the Quarians are certainly justified in their anger and sorrow aimed at the Geth...

[alphax1]

double post srry

Modifié par alphax1, 09 mars 2010 - 02:02 .

[GuardianAngel470]

alphax1 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You honestly don't see the inherent conflicting ideas here? 

You condemn what you call the "genocide" of the geth, why? Because you can't justify killing an entire species based on the actions of a few? Right?

Then you say the geth turned around and did the same thing to the quarians, but they nearly succeeded. And you say "they" got what they deserved. Who? The entire quarian race deserved to be punished for the panicked outcry of a few? You think every single quarian that died was guilty of the willful, intentional destruction of an entire species?

You can't have it both ways man. What happened to the geth was wrong. What happened to the quarians was wrong. Very few deserved to die over it. Billions certainly did not.

There's a difference between wrong and (un)justified though... Dropping the A bombs on Japan was wrong... hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens who had nothing to do with the war effort died... But droppin the bombs was justified becasue Japan wouldn't effing surrender and an invasion of the home islands would have cost millions of lives on both sides.

In this fictional conflict what both sides did was wrong... The Quarians wanted / want to re enslave or annihilate the Geth... The Geth proved to be stronger and almost wiped out the Quarians... Both very wrong... However in a way both sides were justified in what they did or tried to do... The Geth of course were justified becasue they were fighting for their existance and the Quarians beleived they were more putting down rogue VI's than wiping out a sentient species (at least at first... no excuse for what Xen and Zorah are pulling...) and the Quarians are certainly justified in their anger and sorrow aimed at the Geth...

You know, you're the first person who was on topic (and eloquent, I might add) in like 8 pages.  Have a cookie and a good day.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, and I just repeated my self in the post you quoted.  I feel that if you are going to try something like genocide on someone then the punishment should be equal or worse.  And as i stated in another post, I was having a hard time formulating what i wanted to say in that post.  What I meant was what I just said.  If a people are willing to attempt to eradicate an entire race or creed then they deserve to be eradicated.  Their deaths would be a favor to the world/galaxy.

You honestly don't see the inherent conflicting ideas here? 

You condemn what you call the "genocide" of the geth, why? Because you can't justify killing an entire species based on the actions of a few? Right?

Then you say the geth turned around and did the same thing to the quarians, but they nearly succeeded. And you say "they" got what they deserved. Who? The entire quarian race deserved to be punished for the panicked outcry of a few? You think every single quarian that died was guilty of the willful, intentional destruction of an entire species?

You can't have it both ways man. What happened to the geth was wrong. What happened to the quarians was wrong. Very few deserved to die over it. Billions certainly did not.

No, i condemn the genocide of the geth because they did nothing wrong.  They were completely innocent when the quarians attacked.  The quarians aren't innocent, and asked for what they got.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, i condemn the genocide of the geth because they did nothing wrong.  They were completely innocent when the quarians attacked.  The quarians aren't innocent, and asked for what they got.

Oh, okay. So you have no moral objection to genocide in and of itself. And you believe that the sins of a few condemn all? That says a lot of unsavory things about your moral beliefs.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[GuardianAngel470]

You keep saying few when in fact it is the majority. It wasn't some small group of quarians on a distant colony somewhere, it was every owner of a geth mobile platform, and I'm inclined to believe from my convos with tali that that was a substantially large group. And the quarians aren't wiped out, just mostly wiped out, which in my mind is an acceptable punishment for attempted genocide.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You keep saying few when in fact it is the majority.

Prove it. I want hard, indisputable fact that every quarian who died was guilty of committing genocide against the geth--not guilty of thinking it, not guilty of even talking about it--every quarian that died pulled a trigger on a geth. Get me quotes, get me conversations, get me youtube videos.

This is exactly the argument you're making when you say "the quarians deserved it." So let's see you establish it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[Digital Supremacy]

How is that view any different from having 2 atom bombs dropped onto very populated civilian cities just because the Japanese government and military leaders went to war with the USA? was the USA justified/right in dropping those bombs on Japan just because of a handful of people decided to go to war and wouldn't back down?



To me in this analogy USA = Geth, and Japan = Quarians.



The Geth may have been morally wrong but the Geth do not have any moral compass, that's an organic thing. To them they were justified in killing the Quarians, be it man ,woman or child, just as much as USA was justified in bombing civilian populated cities(were there even any military bases in those cities?) and killing millions of children, millions of women, and millions of men who had nothing to do with the war.

[marshalleck]

Just in the interest of injecting fact over hyperbole into the discussion, unless I am grievously mistaken (if I am, I apologize) the atom bombs dropped on Japan did not kill millions of people...it was more along the lines of ~250k people died as a result within the first few months, with Japan recognizing some 410,000 survivors of the bombings who have since died in the intervening years until now.

I'm not saying it was justified, but 'millions and millions and millions' is exaggerated, if you're only speaking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 mars 2010 - 02:51 .

[Digital Supremacy]

yes i kind of exaggerated with millions but never the less, of those 250k or which ever, how much of those were children? how much of those were men and women who had NOTHING to do with the war? my bets, pretty darn close to 250k. So was the USA justified in kill all those civilians?

To the USA, yes they were because it finally ended the war which would have cost maybe a lot more deaths on both sides. But do you think it was justified in the eyes of Japan, probably not. But a lot of people think those bombings were inhumane(if that's the right word) and that USA should have only bombed military installations not highly populated cities.

So how is this any different for the Geth and the Quarians? just because they are machines against organics? because they are slaves? The sense of right or wrong and if they were justified or not, is subjected to the eye of the beholder. Both sides were justified simple as that, being machine has nothing to do with it. But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

Modifié par Digital Supremacy, 09 mars 2010 - 03:12 .

[Inverness Moon]

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

OOH, man is that ever a perfect analogy.  I can't believe I didn't think of that.  Good one Inverse, bravo.

[Noodlesoupninja]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

[GuardianAngel470]

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

Yes, bad guys who are attempting to commit galaxy wide genocide.  The quarians tried to commit colony wide genocide, they are parallel with the Reapers going a bit farther.  Their base action is the same, genocide.  How they accomplish it and for what purpose may differ, but the act is the same.