423 réponses à ce sujet

[Noodlesoupninja]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

Yes, bad guys who are attempting to commit galaxy wide genocide.  The quarians tried to commit colony wide genocide, they are parallel with the Reapers going a bit farther.  Their base action is the same, genocide.  How they accomplish it and for what purpose may differ, but the act is the same.

Nope the Quarians are potential allies, the Reapers are the badguys of the series. Its totally justified.

[Riot Inducer]

I agree with the OP, the Geth achieve sapience and the Quarians had a few options, they chose the a path that prohibited co-existence with the Geth. It was fight back or be killed for the Geth they chose the only path that any sane sapient being would choose, they fought back. But instead of attempting any sort of dialogue with their creations the Quarians initiated hostilities 100% of the time with the Geth.

Also it's important to note that the Geth don't actually want to kill off the Quarians, the Geth just want to be able to survive, that's why the Geth have not made any attempts to pursue and kill the remaining Quarians.

As for the question of weather or not shutting down the Geth constitutes genocide, it probably doesn't but it DOES constitute  slavery of their entire race. A good example of how reprogramming can be slavery is in the Supreme Commander universe one of the factions, the Cybran nation, is based upon Symbionts, cybernetic humans who's minds are paired with an AI. The UEF attempted to subdue all the Symbionts with hidden loyalty programming effectively limiting their free will and enslaving them to the UEF cause. 

Essentially what it all comes down to though is either co-exist or don't exist, it's the reason why the Heretic Geth have to be either destroyed or enslaved and the same reason the Reapers need to be destroyed. Those who choose paths that prohibit co-existence leave few alternatives to genocide for one side or the other. I do hope the Quarians can stop themselves before they cause either themselves or the Geth to become an extinct race.

[GuardianAngel470]

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

Yes, bad guys who are attempting to commit galaxy wide genocide.  The quarians tried to commit colony wide genocide, they are parallel with the Reapers going a bit farther.  Their base action is the same, genocide.  How they accomplish it and for what purpose may differ, but the act is the same.

Nope the Quarians are potential allies, the Reapers are the badguys of the series. Its totally justified.

Whether or not they are allies is irrelevant.  The event in question took place long before anyone knew about the reapers.  What they tried to do was wrong, and they paid for it in kind.

Just like what the reapers do is wrong, and they will pay for it in kind.

[Kileyan]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

Yes, bad guys who are attempting to commit galaxy wide genocide.  The quarians tried to commit colony wide genocide, they are parallel with the Reapers going a bit farther.  Their base action is the same, genocide.  How they accomplish it and for what purpose may differ, but the act is the same.

Nope the Quarians are potential allies, the Reapers are the badguys of the series. Its totally justified.

Whether or not they are allies is irrelevant.  The event in question took place long before anyone knew about the reapers.  What they tried to do was wrong, and they paid for it in kind.

Just like what the reapers do is wrong, and they will pay for it in kind.

No, they found a tool was acting strangley and tried to reboot it. Then the tool jumped up and killed most of their race. You act as if they sat around watching the Geth, watched some Geth babies being born, then they maliciously decided they would kill some Geth for fun.

It was never like that, it crept upon them, what was happening. Did the Quarians make a mistake possibly, does that equal saying they deserved almost total extinction, I don't think so.

Its funny, if you talk to Legion he is even more forgiving of the Quarians than the emo self loathing people on this forum who profess to indentify with the machines more than they do the organic beings.

[GuardianAngel470]

Kileyan wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Noodlesoupninja wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Digital Supremacy wrote...

But to address the OP, no, no one ever deserves to have genocide committed against them.

What about the reapers?

Well they are the badguys.

Yes, bad guys who are attempting to commit galaxy wide genocide.  The quarians tried to commit colony wide genocide, they are parallel with the Reapers going a bit farther.  Their base action is the same, genocide.  How they accomplish it and for what purpose may differ, but the act is the same.

Nope the Quarians are potential allies, the Reapers are the badguys of the series. Its totally justified.

Whether or not they are allies is irrelevant.  The event in question took place long before anyone knew about the reapers.  What they tried to do was wrong, and they paid for it in kind.

Just like what the reapers do is wrong, and they will pay for it in kind.

No, they found a tool was acting strangley and tried to reboot it. Then the tool jumped up and killed most of their race. You act as if they sat around watching the Geth, watched some Geth babies being born, then they maliciously decided they would kill some Geth for fun.

It was never like that, it crept upon them, what was happening. Did the Quarians make a mistake possibly, does that equal saying they deserved almost total extinction, I don't think so.

Its funny, if you talk to Legion he is even more forgiving of the Quarians than the emo self loathing people on this forum who profess to indentify with the machines more than they do the organic beings.

If you'd been here earlier you'd know that it didn't creep up on them, they crept up on it.  The quarians realized that many geth had achieved sapience, and as a result of that knowledge they decided to exterminate all geth.  Many analogies have been used to describe the situation.  Ultimately, the quarians chose to attempt genocide, everything said about the morning war supports this.  Tali tells you this in ME1, and shep get's to say something to the effect of "Of course they retaliated, you tried to kill them all." All descriptions of the beginning of the geth depict the quarians choosing to attempt genocide.  That is why they got what they deserved.

[GuardianAngel470]

Also, the tool analogy you use is inaccurate. it would be more accurate to say the tool began questioning it's existence, and the quarians tried to permanently deactivate it. Permanent deactivation=machine death.

[Exile Isan]

I'd like to point out that Legion says, when he plays you the recording of the Geth asking if it had a soul that this was not the first time a geth had asked this question it was just the first time they, the quarians, were frightened by it. Not the first time though? They had asked before and the quarians ignored them, then reprogrammed them and then finally tried to completely shut them down. It was then, and only then, that the geth fought back. IMHO, the quarians bungled the situation from the get go.

The one thing that annoys me about most quarians that live in the Migrant Fleet now is that they didn't learn from the mistakes of the past. Most quarians still want to destroy the geth even though that is was got them into the situation they are in now.

I'm in favor of finding a peaceful solution between the quarians and the geth, but if pressed to chose one side I'm afraid it would have to be the geth (as much as I love Tali). Because as Admiral Koris put it: "They are our children, Shepard, and we wronged them."  Which is how I felt about the whole geth/quarian war back before ME2 came out and we learned of the heretics.

[GuardianAngel470]

Exile Isan wrote...

I'd like to point out that Legion says, when he plays you the recording of the Geth asking if it had a soul that this was not the first time a geth had asked this question it was just the first time they, the quarians, were frightened by it. Not the first time though? They had asked before and the quarians ignored them, then reprogrammed them and then finally tried to completely shut them down. It was then, and only then, that the geth fought back. IMHO, the quarians bungled the situation from the get go.

The one thing that annoys me about most quarians that live in the Migrant Fleet now is that they didn't learn from the mistakes of the past. Most quarians still want to destroy the geth even though that is was got them into the situation they are in now.

I'm in favor of finding a peaceful solution between the quarians and the geth, but if pressed to chose one side I'm afraid it would have to be the geth (as much as I love Tali). Because as Admiral Koris put it: "They are our children, Shepard, and we wronged them."  Which is how I felt about the whole geth/quarian war back before ME2 came out and we learned of the heretics.

Unfortunately it takes an outsider to set them straight.  And if there was a war, despite what I did to try to avoid one, I'd just sit it out completely, not take any sides.  If the quarians are really willing to go to war with the geth even though I have presented them with an alternative, then that's their business.  I'd just convince tali to stay on the normandy and that would be that.

[Inverness Moon]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Exile Isan wrote...

I'd like to point out that Legion says, when he plays you the recording of the Geth asking if it had a soul that this was not the first time a geth had asked this question it was just the first time they, the quarians, were frightened by it. Not the first time though? They had asked before and the quarians ignored them, then reprogrammed them and then finally tried to completely shut them down. It was then, and only then, that the geth fought back. IMHO, the quarians bungled the situation from the get go.

The one thing that annoys me about most quarians that live in the Migrant Fleet now is that they didn't learn from the mistakes of the past. Most quarians still want to destroy the geth even though that is was got them into the situation they are in now.

I'm in favor of finding a peaceful solution between the quarians and the geth, but if pressed to chose one side I'm afraid it would have to be the geth (as much as I love Tali). Because as Admiral Koris put it: "They are our children, Shepard, and we wronged them."  Which is how I felt about the whole geth/quarian war back before ME2 came out and we learned of the heretics.

Unfortunately it takes an outsider to set them straight.  And if there was a war, despite what I did to try to avoid one, I'd just sit it out completely, not take any sides.  If the quarians are really willing to go to war with the geth even though I have presented them with an alternative, then that's their business.  I'd just convince tali to stay on the normandy and that would be that.

They don't have the privilege of it only being their business. The resources of both the geth and the quarians would be very beneficial in the fight against the reapers. Having the quarians get massacred by the geth--as that is what I believe would happen--would not be of help to anyone.

[Bwaksson]

I think the quarians got what they deserved. You can't attack a sapient organism and not expect it to fight back. Every animal does. And you can't really expect the geth to understand that killing is moraly wrong. At least not at the dawn of their intelligence.



I don't understand however why the Geth want to live on the quarian homeworld at all. Especially since it drastically multiplies the risk of a quarian attack. It doesn't seem to me that the geth are the kind of ... entities that would care which planet they inhabited. And if the quarians pursue them beyond just reclaiming their worlds then the quarians deserve what happened to them even more.

[falco117]

Im on the geths side on this geth quarian issue, i mean they're totally the victims, and since they technically reached sapience a species wide deactivation is unacceptable, but I prefer peace between the quarians and the geth

[Bwaksson]

Shandepared wrote...

I wonder if you've ever considered applying your morality to real-life. Somehow I doubt you're that self-conscious. You and about half a dozen other people in this thread are quite frankly disgusting.

I do. I believe that everyone has the right to defend themselves, even if it means killing your aggressor. If the Iraqi army had destroyed the coalition invasion force and then launched a counter-attack i would have said that the US got what it deserved.

And just to clarify, getting what you deserve doesn't mean that I think the Quarians reacted despicably or are in any way evil. Getting what you deserve is a result of your actions. If your actions are hostile you get what you deserve if the response is hostile.
At least in my part of the world we have a saying: If you want to play, you have to accept losing.

[volly0071]

quote]Bwaksson wrote...



I don't understand however why the Geth want to live on the quarian homeworld at all. Especially since it drastically multiplies the risk of a quarian attack. It doesn't seem to me that the geth are the kind of ... entities that would care which planet they inhabited. .[/quote]



They don't. They live in space stations,taking their resources from astroids, and care for the quarian worlds. Legion tells you this at some point (don't remember when exactly).

[falco117]

[quote]volly0071 wrote...

quote]Bwaksson wrote...

I don't understand however why the Geth want to live on the quarian homeworld at all. Especially since it drastically multiplies the risk of a quarian attack. It doesn't seem to me that the geth are the kind of ... entities that would care which planet they inhabited. .[/quote]

They don't. They live in space stations,taking their resources from astroids, and care for the quarian worlds. Legion tells you this at some point (don't remember when exactly).
[/quote]
If waht you say is true the the geth must care about their creators, i mean caring for one planet let alone an entire solar system is a lot of hard work

[devilsgrin]

its interesting that we're referring to individual geth as having sentience. They don't. Only as a network of many geth do they approach basic animalistic intelligence, and only in platforms with sufficient geth programs are they able to perform even basic functions. . Geth intelligence is more like hive mind... with each programs contributing to the overall intelligence of the "species".  The Geth network may possess sentience, but individual geth do not... hence Legion's claim that their ultimate goal is that no geth should be alone. Alone, they are little more (if even) than VIs...
Legionitself only shows limited sapience, and It is over a 1000 geth programs in one platform... and according to its statements, there are no others like It.
I don't know whether to blame the Quarians or not, but i certainly don't think they deserved to have their entire culture eradicated for a programming error... and their attempt to rectify what would have appeared to them to be a computer virus.

Modifié par devilsgrin, 09 mars 2010 - 12:00 .

[Archereon]

Let me add something to this discussion: The Quarians were, at the time the order to deactivate all Geth went out, under the assumption that only a small minority of Geth had become sapient. Though they expected to be killing a few hundred or even thousand sapient beings, the vast majority of the millions of geth they expected to deactivate would just be, for they all knew, computers.

[Bwaksson]

Shandepared wrote...

It's courageous of you to admit your support of genocide and the whole sale slaughter of innocent people, if morally repugnant. 

If necessary I do support it. And if the response to attempted genocide is genocide I won't blame anyone. I would still think it would have been better if there had been a way to avoid it but done is done.

But who exactly was innocent?

The quarians attempted commit genocide and got attempted genocide right back in their faces. Just because every single quarian might not have agreed on the decision to attack the geth doesn't mean those individuals were innocent. Not in my eyes. (And I'm assuming that the Quarians had an elected government BTW. I don't remeber seeing anything about their pre-fleet government)

[Inverness Moon]

Archereon wrote...

Let me add something to this discussion: The Quarians were, at the time the order to deactivate all Geth went out, under the assumption that only a small minority of Geth had become sapient. Though they expected to be killing a few hundred or even thousand sapient beings, the vast majority of the millions of geth they expected to deactivate would just be, for they all knew, computers.

Almost like a mass abortion.

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
You're arguing against the science, I'm talking about the lore.  The ME lore holds that AIs are indeed capable of emotion, whether or not it is possible in real life.  This thread is a discussion about the ME lore, that is the only fact source relevant here.

I'm arguing from a philosphical standpoint, which can't really be proved or disproved, even by the fiction.
Secondly, the geth do have only minds of software. Legion tells you this on Heretic Station. If Geth minds were mroe than just software they wouldn't be able to download themselves into platforms or store themselves in hubs. They're nothing but very clever computer code that was always designed to mimic real intelligence for the benefit for their intelligent owners who had to interact with them on a regular basis. As far as I'm concerned they may appear intelligent and self-aware but beyond the outward reactions there is no actual "mind" there.

What constitutes an "actual mind?"

You're saying the geth don't have a mind despite the fact that they're sentient? That doesn't make sense. I suspect this is just another attempt to disassociate the inner workings of organics and synthetics. The geth are software based artificial intelligence, artificial does not mean they simply mimic organic intelligence, it simply means that it didn't occur naturally over millions of years of evolution.

There is a clear line between AI and VI.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 mars 2010 - 12:20 .

[Archereon]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Let me add something to this discussion: The Quarians were, at the time the order to deactivate all Geth went out, under the assumption that only a small minority of Geth had become sapient. Though they expected to be killing a few hundred or even thousand sapient beings, the vast majority of the millions of geth they expected to deactivate would just be, for they all knew, computers.

Almost like a mass abortion.

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
You're arguing against the science, I'm talking about the lore.  The ME lore holds that AIs are indeed capable of emotion, whether or not it is possible in real life.  This thread is a discussion about the ME lore, that is the only fact source relevant here.

I'm arguing from a philosphical standpoint, which can't really be proved or disproved, even by the fiction.
Secondly, the geth do have only minds of software. Legion tells you this on Heretic Station. If Geth minds were mroe than just software they wouldn't be able to download themselves into platforms or store themselves in hubs. They're nothing but very clever computer code that was always designed to mimic real intelligence for the benefit for their intelligent owners who had to interact with them on a regular basis. As far as I'm concerned they may appear intelligent and self-aware but beyond the outward reactions there is no actual "mind" there.

What constitutes an "actual mind?"

You're saying the geth don't have a mind despite the fact that they're sentient? That doesn't make sense. I suspect this is just another attempt to disassociate the inner workings of organics and synthetics. The geth are software based artificial intelligence, artificial does not mean they simply mimic organic intelligence, it simply means that it didn't occur naturally over millions of years of evolution.

There is a clear line between AI and VI.

The argument is whether geth are actually self aware (sentient), because of their lack of a "blue box", its pretty much the philosophical zombie question: Do the geth merely behave as if they were self aware without posessing a metaphorical "soul" (consciousness)?

[Inverness Moon]

Archereon wrote...

The argument is whether geth are actually self aware (sentient), because of their lack of a "blue box", its pretty much the philosophical zombie question: Do the geth merely behave as if they were self aware without posessing a metaphorical "soul" (consciousness)?

There is no argument. The codex says that the geth are sentient.

Their existence proves that a quantum blue box is not necessary for creating artificial intelligence.

Edit: Also for the previous discussion on the mind of the geth, I present a quote from EDI: "Legion is a thousand voices talking at once. What it contacted was beyond my comprehension. A mind the size of a galactic arm."

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 mars 2010 - 02:44 .