423 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
In this case deactivation is equal to murder.  I just replayed ME1 and tali tells you specifically that the order sent out across all the colonies was to PERMANENTLY deactivate all geth.  Permanent deactivation=death.

See, that's an order. Orders are made from higher ups, which are indicative of individuals versus the common person. You can't be serious if you think that every Quarian deserved to die because their government ordered them to deactivate the geth. From the Quarian perspective, they were deactivating faulty hardware.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
The few individuals concept is mistaken.  It was a species wide consensus that deactivating the geth was the right thing to do.

I'm very doubtful that they all attempted and had the means to deactivate the geth. I'm sure most of the Japanese civilians in Hiroshima were not of high opinion of the United States but the nuclear attacks on Japan are still not a black and white issue.

I thought we were talking about the quarians here.  As far as we know all quarians know how to dismantle machinery.  The geth were also as widepread as toasters are here.  Everybody had them, and they all wanted to deactivate them.  I'm not saying it's a black and white issue, I'm just saying if you're going to attempt genocide of a race you know is sapient, then you deserve to get decimated.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
In this case deactivation is equal to murder.  I just replayed ME1 and tali tells you specifically that the order sent out across all the colonies was to PERMANENTLY deactivate all geth.  Permanent deactivation=death.

See, that's an order. Orders are made from higher ups, which are indicative of individuals versus the common person. You can't be serious if you think that every Quarian deserved to die because their government ordered them to deactivate the geth. From the Quarian perspective, they were deactivating faulty hardware.

They deserve to die because every quarian followed that order, or tried to.  Thus, the immediate self defense.

[GuardianAngel470]

@Collider:



In the military, soldiers are allowed to disobey any order that is illegal, ie gunning down civilians, but if they follow that order they are responsible for the consequences.

[Reptilian Rob]

The Geth were built into slavery, gained sentience and when the Quarians saw that they could think on their own accord they decided to destroy them rather than co-exist.

Yeah, I'd say they're getting what they deserve.

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 07 mars 2010 - 07:31 .

[superimposed]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
In this case deactivation is equal to murder.  I just replayed ME1 and tali tells you specifically that the order sent out across all the colonies was to PERMANENTLY deactivate all geth.  Permanent deactivation=death.

See, that's an order. Orders are made from higher ups, which are indicative of individuals versus the common person. You can't be serious if you think that every Quarian deserved to die because their government ordered them to deactivate the geth. From the Quarian perspective, they were deactivating faulty hardware.

lawl.

The Nuremberg defence.

"It was an order, I didn't want to kill the five women and four children!"

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I thought we were talking about the quarians here.  As far as we know all quarians know how to dismantle machinery.

That's an assumption. Assuredly on their home planet there would be a variety of occupations, just as there is on earth. Humans may one day create robots mimicking or achieving sentience but that doesn't mean that most will probably not know how even a toaster works.

The geth were also as widepread as toasters are here.  Everybody had them, and they all wanted to deactivate them.

Do you have proof? I doubt it.

I'm not saying it's a black and white issue, I'm just saying if you're going to attempt genocide of a race you know is sapient, then you deserve to get decimated.

Um, saying they deserve to get decimated does seem indicative that you think it's a black and white issue. The history was that the Quarian government ordered the Geth shut down, and then the Geth proceeded to slaughter billions of Quarians. I HIGHLY doubt all of those deaths were from immediate self defense.

[AngryFrozenWater]

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Having feelings and emotions is better? Or does that make you feel superior? Or does that allow you to exterminate a sentient species capable of creative and independent thought?

[Collider]

superimposed wrote...
lawl.

The Nuremberg defence.

"It was an order, I didn't want to kill the five women and four children!"

We don't even know the specifics of the order. As far as we know, the Geth are controlled via control centers. That would not amount to the general populace, but instead very few people compared to the total population. What that amounts to then, are billions of people getting slaughtered over the actions of government workers.

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
They deserve to die because every quarian followed that order, or tried to.  Thus, the immediate self defense.

Uh, yea, I'm sure. Even the infants knew how to deactive geth, right? Please. Unless you've got proof that "EVERY" () Quarian both had attempted to do it, you're pulling **** out of your ass. The Geth were right to resist being deactivated, but that doesn't justify them slaughtering billions of innocent people.

[superimposed]

Collider wrote...

superimposed wrote...
lawl.

The Nuremberg defence.

"It was an order, I didn't want to kill the five women and four children!"

We don't even know the specifics of the order. As far as we know, the Geth are controlled via control centers. That would not amount to the general populace, but instead very few people compared to the total population. What that amounts to then, are billions of people getting slaughtered over the actions of government workers.

Good. When they do nothing to stop the actions, then they are complicit and equally to blame.

[TheBlackBaron]

Attempting to shut down the Geth can hardly be considered genocide, at least in the normal human sense. Genocide involves more than just killing people, it's an attempt to totally eradicate for all time the entire culture and history of the ethnicity involved. That can't happen with what's basically a highly advanced computer. Even if you destroyed every last mobile platform and deleted every Geth program, you could just build and write more.

Acid bathing the Rachni queen? Ignoring whether or not it's justified, that's genocide. The quarian response, not so much. The situation is far more gray than that.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 mars 2010 - 07:39 .

[applehug]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Having feelings and emotions is better? Or does that make you feel superior? Or does that allow you to exterminate a sentient species capable of creative and independent thought?

The geth were just tools made by the Quarians, nothing more. They could destroy them for any reason on a whim because they were their creators.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I thought we were talking about the quarians here.  As far as we know all quarians know how to dismantle machinery.

That's an assumption. Assuredly on their home planet there would be a variety of occupations, just as there is on earth. Humans may one day create robots mimicking or achieving sentience but that doesn't mean that most will probably not know how even a toaster works.

The geth were also as widepread as toasters are here.  Everybody had them, and they all wanted to deactivate them.

Do you have proof? I doubt it.

I'm not saying it's a black and white issue, I'm just saying if you're going to attempt genocide of a race you know is sapient, then you deserve to get decimated.

Um, saying they deserve to get decimated does seem indicative that you think it's a black and white issue. The history was that the Quarian government ordered the Geth shut down, and then the Geth proceeded to slaughter billions of Quarians. I HIGHLY doubt all of those deaths were from immediate self defense.

You're right, it is an assumtion, and I stated it as such.

The geth's presence and numbers were alluded to multiple times, and you're probably right, I am seeing this as a black and white issue, but I didn't say it was.  And no, the deaths of billions probably wasn't as a direct result of self defense but rather a result of a lack of higher cognitive function.  The geth, if you listened to the recording legion plays for you, had very limited cognitive ability and they likely percieved all quarians as a threat, regardless of age, gender, or military status.  They were sapient, but just barely.  I'm not saying that war itself wasn't tragic, I'm just saying that a suitable punishment for attempting genocide is genocide.

[GuardianAngel470]

applehug wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Having feelings and emotions is better? Or does that make you feel superior? Or does that allow you to exterminate a sentient species capable of creative and independent thought?

The geth were just tools made by the Quarians, nothing more. They could destroy them for any reason on a whim because they were their creators.

So you would have no qualms about destroying you computer if it started asking you about the nature of its existance? How about if you're son asked you that? you're his creator, by your logic it should be alright to kill him.

[MrRattenburg]

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

[rayremy]

I guess humanity deserved what they got in the Matrix, they struck first afterall.



BTW, if my toaster or vacuum started to talk, I'd smash it with a sldgehammer without a second thought. Same applies for a worker drone that's starting to question its existence.

[applehug]

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Modifié par applehug, 07 mars 2010 - 07:44 .

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
You're right, it is an assumtion, and I stated it as such.

The geth's presence and numbers were alluded to multiple times, and you're probably right, I am seeing this as a black and white issue, but I didn't say it was.  And no, the deaths of billions probably wasn't as a direct result of self defense but rather a result of a lack of higher cognitive function.  The geth, if you listened to the recording legion plays for you, had very limited cognitive ability and they likely percieved all quarians as a threat, regardless of age, gender, or military status.  They were sapient, but just barely.  I'm not saying that war itself wasn't tragic, I'm just saying that a suitable punishment for attempting genocide is genocide.

I just fundamentally disagree with you. Civilians don't deserve to face the consequences of their government. I don't deserve to be attacked, jailed, or segregated for actions of others. I hate to enact godwin's law, but if you think all german civilians during WWII deserved to get slaughtered because of their government's ridiculous actions, go ahead and believe that. The government during that time even themselves ordered civilians to report all jews so they can get into concentration camps, where they were likely to die. But hey, if you want to believe that every man, woman and child deserved to die because of that, well you've the freedom to think that.

[applehug]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

applehug wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Having feelings and emotions is better? Or does that make you feel superior? Or does that allow you to exterminate a sentient species capable of creative and independent thought?

The geth were just tools made by the Quarians, nothing more. They could destroy them for any reason on a whim because they were their creators.

So you would have no qualms about destroying you computer if it started asking you about the nature of its existance? How about if you're son asked you that? you're his creator, by your logic it should be alright to kill him.

A human being is diffrent from a computer. One is a tool while the other one is an organic species. If you are not capable of seeing the diffrences than I suggest you get therapy.

[MrRattenburg]

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
So you would have no qualms about destroying you computer if it started asking you about the nature of its existance? How about if you're son asked you that? you're his creator, by your logic it should be alright to kill him.

A computer nor the Geth were created for sentience. Purposeful reproduction is. And there is MUCH MORE blood and sweat spent through the creation of organic life versus synthetic life. The geth can literally upload themselves to the database and not have to worry about individual geth bodies. Basically what appears to have have happened is that the geth were already programmed to care about their survival (so they wouldn't destroy themselves inadvertently while carrying out their tasks), and when their programming evolved to asking about their own existence and they were ordered to shut down, they decided the best course of action would be to kill ALL quarians. See, I would put more value into my son asking about the meaning of life over my toaster asking the meaning of life. The former is being human, the latter is malfunctioning.

[applehug]

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

And most humans don't like the idea of butchering dolphins.

And a dolphin never asked me if it had a soul.

[Collider]

If I recall correctly, Legion himself says that the Geth do not have emotions.