423 réponses à ce sujet

[KalosCast]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
So you would have no qualms about destroying you computer if it started asking you about the nature of its existance? How about if you're son asked you that? you're his creator, by your logic it should be alright to kill him.

A computer nor the Geth were created for sentience. Purposeful reproduction is. And there is MUCH MORE blood and sweat spent through the creation of organic life versus synthetic life. The geth can literally upload themselves to the database and not have to worry about individual geth bodies. Basically what appears to have have happened is that the geth were already programmed to care about their survival (so they wouldn't destroy themselves inadvertently while carrying out their tasks), and when their programming evolved to asking about their own existence and they were ordered to shut down, they decided the best course of action would be to kill ALL quarians. See, I would put more value into my son asking about the meaning of life over my toaster asking the meaning of life. The former is being human, the latter is malfunctioning.

Why not? The Quarians gave out the order for immediate and permenant (Tali says permenant) shutdown of all Geth assuming that they meant the platforms and not the runtimes, it's not genocide in the literal sense of the term, but it is in the effective sense, while damning an entire race of sentient beings to a fate worse than death, still being aware and able to process on the database they're on, but completely unable to interact or continue to perceive an outside world they know to exist. Pure nightmare fuel.

Also, Geth are purely logical beings, the best way to deal with the threat of your entire bretheren's destruction is to respond in kind. Kind of the entire basis of the concept of warfare. Something sentient robots would be exceptionally good at.

Modifié par KalosCast, 07 mars 2010 - 07:53 .

[Schneidend]

The assumption made was that the geth would quickly recognize that they were slaves and would rise up. This is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to. Moreover, the geth are not innocent. They committed mass murders of quarians in an attempt to break their enemies' will to fight. Legion's runtimes all agreed that the geth were excessively violent during the rebellions. It is one thing to defend yourself, but it is quite another to commit war crimes.

[superimposed]

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

And most humans don't like the idea of butchering dolphins.

And a dolphin never asked me if it had a soul.

But the Geth did. That would put it above the Dolphin.

[KalosCast]

Schneidend wrote...

The assumption made was that the geth would quickly recognize that they were slaves and would rise up. This is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to. Moreover, the geth are not innocent. They committed mass murders of quarians in an attempt to break their enemies' will to fight. Legion's runtimes all agreed that the geth were excessively violent during the rebellions. It is one thing to defend yourself, but it is quite another to commit war crimes.

Every conventional war (ancient to World War II) has been won through attacking civilian strongholds, not military ones. Then the winner apologizes only after they can't get punished for it (and can take advantage of the losers resources). If anything, this proves that the Geth are much more human than any other evidence.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
You're right, it is an assumtion, and I stated it as such.

The geth's presence and numbers were alluded to multiple times, and you're probably right, I am seeing this as a black and white issue, but I didn't say it was.  And no, the deaths of billions probably wasn't as a direct result of self defense but rather a result of a lack of higher cognitive function.  The geth, if you listened to the recording legion plays for you, had very limited cognitive ability and they likely percieved all quarians as a threat, regardless of age, gender, or military status.  They were sapient, but just barely.  I'm not saying that war itself wasn't tragic, I'm just saying that a suitable punishment for attempting genocide is genocide.

I just fundamentally disagree with you. Civilians don't deserve to face the consequences of their government. I don't deserve to be attacked, jailed, or segregated for actions of others. I hate to enact godwin's law, but if you think all german civilians during WWII deserved to get slaughtered because of their government's ridiculous actions, go ahead and believe that. The government during that time even themselves ordered civilians to report all jews so they can get into concentration camps, where they were likely to die. But hey, if you want to believe that every man, woman and child deserved to die because of that, well you've the freedom to think that.

I think the ones who ignored the concentration camps damn well should be killed, and it was more than just the gov't.  The order was followed by ever person who owned a geth mobile platform.  As far as we know that constitutes a large majority (or a small minority, but I'm inclined to believe the former) and In principle I do agree with you.  The people shouldn't be punished for what their gov't does, but it isn't a matter of govt vs people, its a matter of the people following a stupid order than any sane person would ignore. "The geth are sapient you say, why lets just deactivate them, that is totally the best option;" NO.  The whole concept of deactivation feels more like a plot device to create an enemy/ally that wouldn't exist otherwise.  And because it appears that it was a general action taken by the quarians I am generalizing the situation.  Do I think that the kid next door deserved to die because his parents tried to deactivate the household geth? No, there were a lot of innocent lives lost, but that is what happens when you do what they did.

[MrRattenburg]

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

And most humans don't like the idea of butchering dolphins.

And a dolphin never asked me if it had a soul.

How do you know what a dolphin has asked you, you're not Dr. Dolittle are you?

[AngryFrozenWater]

applehug wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Having feelings and emotions is better? Or does that make you feel superior? Or does that allow you to exterminate a sentient species capable of creative and independent thought?

The geth were just tools made by the Quarians, nothing more. They could destroy them for any reason on a whim because they were their creators.

The geth may have been tools once, but after becoming self aware and capable of creative and independent thought they have been raised above that status.

There is not much difference between a synthetic and organic life form. Things like pain are just mechanisms to ensure that we don't harm ourselves in the future. The same can be said about feelings and emotions. In that respect we are merely organic machines. Instead of mechanics and electronics we are driven by biochemical processes. I don't see much difference between the two.

The geth create other geth, much like we create other humans. We may think that sexuality and love are interesting byproducts of our method of reproduction, but it isn't much different from creation by construction. The end result is the same. Come to think of it... Maybe the geth are superior because they have more control over their own evolution. All we can do is to wait for a lucky gene mutation.

[GuardianAngel470]

Schneidend wrote...

The assumption made was that the geth would quickly recognize that they were slaves and would rise up. This is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to. Moreover, the geth are not innocent. They committed mass murders of quarians in an attempt to break their enemies' will to fight. Legion's runtimes all agreed that the geth were excessively violent during the rebellions. It is one thing to defend yourself, but it is quite another to commit war crimes.

The smart, logical, and amazingly obvious thing to do would be to set them free.  Free geth means revolt avoided.

[superimposed]

The key thing is where legion states what the ultimate goal of the Geth is. the ultimate hivemind, but the words that stand out are:

"No Geth will ever be alone"

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I think the ones who ignored the concentration camps damn well should be killed, and it was more than just the gov't.  The order was followed by ever person who owned a geth mobile platform.

You don't know that. And I doubt you know how many Quarians had geth themselves. Even then, you have to factor in the children, who would not own platforms. So basically you are saying stuff that would be benefit your position. unless you've got evidence for what you are saying, which so far you don't.

No, there were a lot of innocent lives lost, but that is what happens when you do what they did.

If you agree that innocent lives were lost, you need to redefine your platform. Because as it is, you appear to be saying that ALL Quarians, men, women, and children deserved to die because of the government, in which case I'd call you astoundingly cruel.

[superimposed]

The geth were just tools made by the Quarians, nothing more. They
could destroy them for any reason on a whim because they were their
creators.

No. They may have manufactured them, but they have no right to tell them what to think.

[gutty47]

Shandepared wrote...
As has been said already: you can destroy every geth platform and delete every program and as long as you have the knowledge to rebuild them you can bring them right back. You cannot do this with an organic species.

You can't do this with a synthetic species either. Starting from scratch will inevitably result in a different lifeform.

[applehug]

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

And most humans don't like the idea of butchering dolphins.

And a dolphin never asked me if it had a soul.

But the Geth did. That would put it above the Dolphin.

Except the Geth are machines, and machines don't have fellings and emotions. If I'm correct, synthetics have no nervous system and can't feel pain. They also have no emotions which to them could justify killing billions of  lifeforms  "for the greater good". Do you really want these kind of creatures to live if they could kill any lifeform for any reason?

[KalosCast]

Shandepared wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Every conventional war (ancient to World War II) has been won through attacking civilian strongholds, not military ones. Then the winner apologizes only after they can't get punished for it (and can take advantage of the losers resources). If anything, this proves that the Geth are much more human than any other evidence.

All that proves is that they're logical. Apologzing for it is a strategic move. Frankly if I get the chance to help Admiral Xen reassume control over the geth I'll take it. I like Legion, but only because I anthropomoprhize him. Neither he nor any other machine is alive. No synethetic construct will ever have the same ethical value as an organic one. As has been said already: you can destroy every geth platform and delete every program and as long as you have the knowledge to rebuild them you can bring them right back. You cannot do this with an organic species.

Why not? All you need are the chemicals to synthesize a few chromosome pairs and a petri dish to grow cells in. We're as much a product of our programming as the Geth are. Just giant blobs of team-oriented cells reacting to input in potentially abstract ways.

The Geth were just as much evolved into sentience as human beings were, a series of simple and relatively minor upgrades over time to help them do their functions better (in this case, working instead of humping, but it's the same ocncept at heart) and through some yet unexplained cosmic accident gained sentient thought. The Quarains went to war with a primitive species, that doesn't make them a fake species.

Modifié par KalosCast, 07 mars 2010 - 08:06 .

[superimposed]

gutty47 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
As has been said already: you can destroy every geth platform and delete every program and as long as you have the knowledge to rebuild them you can bring them right back. You cannot do this with an organic species.

You can't do this with a synthetic species either. Starting from scratch will inevitably result in a different lifeform.

You can construct the physical form, but the whole point of the Geth is that they are constructed intelligence who acted outside of the perimeters assigned to them. They evolved.

And there is no guarantee that starting from scratch, even with the same basic data, will result in the same conclusion.

[superimposed]

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

MrRattenburg wrote...

applehug wrote...

superimposed wrote...

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Actually, they were capable of Abstract thought, and fought back against their Masters to survive. Both of those are indications of emotions and feelings.

So laaaaawl.

No it doesn't. If you corner a wild animal it will fight back. This doesn't prove it has emotions or feelings.

Yeah, except animals do have feelings and emotions, so your analogy proves nothing.

They do not have abstract thought capable of thinking about their own existence, however.

Some do, after all a dolphin has the ability to commit suicide by voluntarily closing its blow hole and suffocating itself. 

And most humans don't like the idea of butchering dolphins.

And a dolphin never asked me if it had a soul.

But the Geth did. That would put it above the Dolphin.

Except the Geth are machines, and machines don't have fellings and emotions. If I'm correct, synthetics have no nervous system and can't feel pain. They also have no emotions which to them could justify killing billions of  lifeforms  "for the greater good". Do you really want these kind of creatures to live if they could kill any lifeform for any reason?

Pyramid Alert.

Also, Legion says that the ultimate goal of the Geth is to unify all geth, so that no geth would ever be alone.
Being alone is an abstract thought.
Secondly, they fought for their own survival, nothing more or less. The heretic geth are not the main geth, just as the Eclipse mercenaries are not all Asari.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I think the ones who ignored the concentration camps damn well should be killed, and it was more than just the gov't.  The order was followed by ever person who owned a geth mobile platform.

You don't know that. And I doubt you know how many Quarians had geth themselves. Even then, you have to factor in the children, who would not own platforms. So basically you are saying stuff that would be benefit your position. unless you've got evidence for what you are saying, which so far you don't.

No, there were a lot of innocent lives lost, but that is what happens when you do what they did.

If you agree that innocent lives were lost, you need to redefine your platform. Because as it is, you appear to be saying that ALL Quarians, men, women, and children deserved to die because of the government, in which case I'd call you astoundingly cruel.

Just don't ever attack me, physically, or else you learn just how cruel I can be. I'm making a generalization based on a lack of evidence, for or against.  It was my understanding from the geth recording that having a geth as a household servant was common.  I believe tali mentions this, but I'm not certain.  If it is in fact true then my arguement stands, most quarians are responsible for attempted genocide, and most quarians payed for it.  The entire race wasn't wiped out, just most of it.

[gutty47]

superimposed wrote...
You can construct the physical form, but the whole point of the Geth is that they are constructed intelligence who acted outside of the perimeters assigned to them. They evolved.

And there is no guarantee that starting from scratch, even with the same basic data, will result in the same conclusion.

Exactly. This is highlighted from the fact that the geth managed to seperate into two different idealogies by themselves.

[AngryFrozenWater]

What people seem to forget is that the geth didn't wipe out all quarians. They exiled them from their home planet instead. After that the geth isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy in the systems beyond the Perseus Veil. They stayed there for about 200 years and in that time they did not try to attack quarians or any other species. The geth that show up after that were the heretics which served Nazara. So, in a way the non-heretic geth showed a kind of mercy. When they had the power to exterminate the last quarians they clearly have chosen not to do that.

[Gabey5]

indeed they did.....

[applehug]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What people seem to forget is that the geth didn't wipe out all quarians. They exiled them from their home planet instead. After that the geth isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy in the systems beyond the Perseus Veil. They stayed there for about 200 years and in that time they did not try to attack quarians or any other species. The geth that show up after that were the heretics which served Nazara. So, in a way the non-heretic geth showed a kind of mercy. When they had the power to exterminate the last quarians they clearly have chosen not to do that.

Except the Geth commited war crimes before that...