423 réponses à ce sujet

[superimposed]

No, it won't. It's basic behaviors will be the same, only its experiences will change.

Again, the Geth acted outside their programming parameters. They evolved, changed in a way which was not expected because it was not there in the original creation.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The smart, logical, and amazingly obvious thing to do would be to set them free.  Free geth means revolt avoided.

You don't understand "smart" and "logical". You can't just set the geth free. They need a purpose and a home. What are you going to do, ship them to asteroids and tell them to dig? What if they don't want to? What if they want to stay right here and build a city? Are you going to leave? What are you going to do when the geth quit their jobs and the quarian economy collapses? What will you do when the Council compounds this problem by kicking you off the Citadel for being complicit in the activation of millions of illegal A.I., sanctioning your government?

So you're saying that going to war is a better option than attempting peace, perhaps reaching an agreement for continued service? become more of cohabiting species and less a servitude species.  By setting them free I was assuming you would understand that they are a sentient race, and as a sentient race they can be reasoned with and negotiated with.  War obviously wasn't the answer, and who's to say the geth wouldn't be satiated completing the tasks they were programmed to do?  Who's to say they wouldn't be perfectly happy to continue doing the same jobs they had been?  The problem is the quarians never asked.  They never acknowledged the geth's sapience.  

Finally, I'm fairly certain there wasn't as strong a stigma against AI before the Morning War.

[The_Real_Lee]

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.



The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.



In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)



If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.



If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

[superimposed]

Shandepared wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What people seem to forget is that the geth didn't wipe out all quarians.

You're right they only wiped out the vast majority of the species.

Honey, keep out of this. Leave this discussion to the adults.

lawl.

You're arguing on the internet. If you want to feign maturity you'd best do it elsewhere.

You
could ressurect one quarian sure, or one human, or whatever, but
you
could not ressurect the entire species. You'd need a hell of a
lot more
genetic material to do that. With a synethetic if you know
how to build
the base model for just ONE you can ressurect the entire
"species" given enough time.

That same principle applies to organic species. The same blueprints that my genetics followed to create me are the same as every other human on this planet. The slight variations that do exist between humans are insignificant.

[KalosCast]

Shandepared wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, it won't. It's basic behaviors will be the same, only its experiences will change.

Again, the Geth acted outside their programming parameters. They evolved, changed in a way which was not expected because it was not there in the original creation.

So what? If you copied down the code for a modern geth you could destroy them all and then bring them back good as new whenever you wanted.

Just like how twins are exactly the same person. Or how a clone brought back as part of a "human restoration project' after the Reapers wipe us out would be 100% normal... depsite all psychological evidence to the contrary.

[GuardianAngel470]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

You're forgetting that the humans only joined the galactic community until after the Morning War.  I was under the impression that until the Geth there was no real reason not to study AI other than a Moral and pragmatic one.  An AI COULD go rogue and do a lot of damage, but until the geth no AI actually had.

[superimposed]

Shandepared wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, it won't. It's basic behaviors will be the same, only its experiences will change.

Again, the Geth acted outside their programming parameters. They evolved, changed in a way which was not expected because it was not there in the original creation.

So what? If you copied down the code for a modern geth you could destroy them all and then bring them back good as new whenever you wanted.

If you copied down the code for a modern geth, the result would be a geth who acts and behaves like the ones you destroyed. If you modify the code, then you no longer have the geth.

[superimposed]

Simple logic. You either advocate bringing back what you spent so long trying to destroy, or you prove yourself wrong because you do not recreate the geth.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


So you're saying that going to war is a better option than attempting peace, perhaps reaching an agreement for continued service?

Attemping peace, think about what that means. Obviously peace with the geth would have been the best possible way to resolve the conflict. However just becuase you attempt peace does not mean you will get it. The consquences for attemping peace and failing were likely far more severe than the consequences of going to war right then and losing.

You are not thinking about this clearly. What are you going to offer the geth? How will you compensate them? The geth were integrated into ever facet of quarian society, from simple house chores to military to industrial and service jobs. What do you think is going to happen when those geth stop doing their jobs and start asking questions instead? You are facing a catastrophe no matter what you do, even if you succeed in creating a peace you're going to be in the midst of chaos anyway. That is why the safer option is simply to shut the geth down and try to figure out where you went wrong so that you won't accidentally create A.I. again in the future. Sadly the quarians did not realize how smart the geth were; they didn't realize that they'd already gotten intelligent enough to resist.

There probably wasn't as strong a stigma against A.I. before the Morning War, but they were still illegal.

You not taking into account that the geth don't think like organics, they don't go to war over resources.  I'm saying you ask them what they want, and try to give it to them.  Going to war is a last resort.  Govt's always attempt diplomacy, even when war is inevitable.  Just look at the Cold War, we were constantly attempting talks, reaching agreements, even when we were fighting their pilots in korea and vietnam.  War is devastating, to all people involved.  It should only be undertaken after all other avenues were exhausted. 

[KalosCast]

Shandepared wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, it won't. It's basic behaviors will be the same, only its experiences will change.

Again, the Geth acted outside their programming parameters. They evolved, changed in a way which was not expected because it was not there in the original creation.

So what? If you copied down the code for a modern geth you could destroy them all and then bring them back good as new whenever you wanted.

If you copied down the code for a modern geth, the result would be a geth who acts and behaves like the ones you destroyed. If you modify the code, then you no longer have the geth.

I am curious as to why you'd bring up modifying the code when I never suggested any such thing.

Geth learning is the same thing as modification of code. Hence why you have that whole Legion sidequest where you go fix a rounding error that makes people worship omnicidal space-squid.

[superimposed]

Govt's always attempt diplomacy, even when war is inevitable. Just look at the Cold War, we were constantly attempting talks, reaching agreements, even when we were fighting their pilots in korea and vietnam. War is devastating, to all people involved. It should only be undertaken after all other avenues were exhausted.

That's nonsense, the US started a number of conflicts in South America in order to stop political parties they didn't favour from getting in to power.

[KalosCast]

superimposed wrote...

Govt's always attempt diplomacy, even when war is inevitable. Just look at the Cold War, we were constantly attempting talks, reaching agreements, even when we were fighting their pilots in korea and vietnam. War is devastating, to all people involved. It should only be undertaken after all other avenues were exhausted.

That's nonsense, the US started a number of conflicts in South America in order to stop political parties they didn't favour from getting in to power.

Maybe the CIA only hires kind, reasonable, talkative, assassins?

[GuardianAngel470]

superimposed wrote...

Govt's always attempt diplomacy, even when war is inevitable. Just look at the Cold War, we were constantly attempting talks, reaching agreements, even when we were fighting their pilots in korea and vietnam. War is devastating, to all people involved. It should only be undertaken after all other avenues were exhausted.

That's nonsense, the US started a number of conflicts in South America in order to stop political parties they didn't favour from getting in to power.

That wasnt full scale war though, that was imposing force display.  And I don't necisarily agree with anything we did in south america.  Also, the always in my sentence should probably be changed to often or usually.  I really shouldn't use absolutes, it gives the wrong impression.  The main point though is still relevant, diplomacy comes first, then after that comes war, if it is a really irreconcilable difference.

[The_Real_Lee]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

You're forgetting that the humans only joined the galactic community until after the Morning War.  I was under the impression that until the Geth there was no real reason not to study AI other than a Moral and pragmatic one.  An AI COULD go rogue and do a lot of damage, but until the geth no AI actually had.

I know that human joined after the morning war, but creating AI was already illegal. It was never legal, it has been implied by Tali that there had been a beleif that AIs were always dangerous. It was illegal before the geth creation, and after the geth creation it was just given more merit to the general public.

[superimposed]

What's the difference?



A war is where old men send young men to die. Everything else is semantics.

[GuardianAngel470]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

You're forgetting that the humans only joined the galactic community until after the Morning War.  I was under the impression that until the Geth there was no real reason not to study AI other than a Moral and pragmatic one.  An AI COULD go rogue and do a lot of damage, but until the geth no AI actually had.

I know that human joined after the morning war, but creating AI was already illegal. It was never legal, it has been implied by Tali that there had been a beleif that AIs were always dangerous. It was illegal before the geth creation, and after the geth creation it was just given more merit to the general public.

Yes, but creating one before the geth wasn't grounds to banish a species from the citadel.  After the geth it became a matter of life and death, and much more banishable offense.

[GuardianAngel470]

superimposed wrote...

What's the difference?

A war is where old men send young men to die. Everything else is semantics.

You're missing the point.  I'm not arguing what is and isn't war, I'm arguing that war should always come last.

[superimposed]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

What's the difference?

A war is where old men send young men to die. Everything else is semantics.

You're missing the point.  I'm not arguing what is and isn't war, I'm arguing that war should always come last.

"Should" is not the same as "does" and definitely not the same as "Preferred".

War is a means to an end. An effective one. On the scale of nations, the smaller your enemy is the more likely you are to go to war with them.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You not taking into account that the geth don't think like organics...

True, but irrelevant...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

...they don't go to war over resources.

An assumption, and an extremely illogical one at that...



Your idealism is charming, but it would be irresponsible and dangerous if wielded by a leader responsible for billions of lives.

First, it's not an assumption, it's a fact. Legion tells you this if you bother to talk to him.

Second, idealism has nothing to do with it.  If my president wanted to got to war with China because if we didn't do it now, china would grow stronger and we might regret it later, I'd call for his immediate removal from office. War costs lives and unless you aren't positive it is necessary, then it shouldn't be undertaken, period.  the quarians didn't know for a fact that the geth would revolt, they didn't know for a fact that the geth couldn't be reasoned with, and they didn't know for a fact that coexistance was impossible. they didn't pursue these possibilities and for that they got what they deserved.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

I am still a bit puzzled by these laws. I wonder why they were there in the first place. I assume that it has to do with ethics. Much like why we think cloning is unethical or some religious motive like not being allowed to play some god. Still, once you have created AI then all of a sudden these ethics are thrown out of the window, and the geth need to be destroyed. I think, even if you think it is wrong to create AI, it is also wrong to kill a sentient species like the geth. They are there, so come in terms with them and leave them be. As far as we can see they don't have plans to exterminate us.

A bio-syntheric race that does pose a threat are the reapers. It's better to concentrate on them instead. The geth seem to think the reapers are a threat too, so at least we have an ally. Whatever the quarians want with the geth (there seem to be 4 main views) for now the geth are very useful. The quarians need to back off until the problems with the reapers are dealt with. We can look at their "crimes" later.