423 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Collider wrote...

Basically, there were misunderstandings on both sides. The Quarians just thought they were shutting down faulty hardware. The Geth instead probably used survival programming and reasoned that it would be best to kill all of these quarians in order to survive. Neither were justified. It is very disgusting to say that an entire people deserve to get slaughtered just because of likely a few individuals.

No, that is not the case. The quarians wouldn't have tried to shut the geth down if the geth hadn't displayed signs of sentience. The quarians knew full well what they were doing.

As for the rest of that. Geth are not individuals and I'm unsure if the geth even understood at the time that the quarians were individuals and did not all agree with their attempted genocide of the geth.

I still think it comes down to intent, the geth intention was to survive, not to wipe out the quarians.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

First, it's not an assumption, it's a fact. Legion tells you this if you bother to talk to him.

They don't go to war over resources because they have no one to go to war with.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

...they didn't pursue these possibilities and for that they got what they deserved.

You aren't looking at the entire picture. Not your fault I guess; I'm sure you would if you were capable of thinking on that scale.  You aren't considering the consequences of being wrong.

You're also condoning genocide, but once again I don't think you're sharp enough to understand that.

Thanks for the insult to my inteligence, that's totally why I'm here. I'm not condoning genocide, Im condoning what eh quarians got.  They arent wiped out, and I would be sad if they were, I love the quarians.  And as for the consequences of being wrong the worst that could happen is the geth could go to war with the quarians and all or nearly all quarians would be wiped out.  Wait, that's what happened when they went to war with the geth, hmmm.  They say hindsight is 20/20 and it is completely true, but the consequences, from a strategic standpoint, are less for attempting peace with the geth than going to war.  I don't see how attempting peace would make me stupid, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 07 mars 2010 - 08:50 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

applehug wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What people seem to forget is that the geth didn't wipe out all quarians. They exiled them from their home planet instead. After that the geth isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy in the systems beyond the Perseus Veil. They stayed there for about 200 years and in that time they did not try to attack quarians or any other species. The geth that show up after that were the heretics which served Nazara. So, in a way the non-heretic geth showed a kind of mercy. When they had the power to exterminate the last quarians they clearly have chosen not to do that.

Except the Geth commited war crimes before that...

What crime was that? Defending themselves against genocide?

[The_Real_Lee]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

You're forgetting that the humans only joined the galactic community until after the Morning War.  I was under the impression that until the Geth there was no real reason not to study AI other than a Moral and pragmatic one.  An AI COULD go rogue and do a lot of damage, but until the geth no AI actually had.

I know that human joined after the morning war, but creating AI was already illegal. It was never legal, it has been implied by Tali that there had been a beleif that AIs were always dangerous. It was illegal before the geth creation, and after the geth creation it was just given more merit to the general public.

Yes, but creating one before the geth wasn't grounds to banish a species from the citadel.  After the geth it became a matter of life and death, and much more banishable offense.

Your missing the point, this isn't about banishment, it's about political responcibilities. When the quarians created the Geth, it was their responcibility to control or destroy their creation. With a force the size of the geth, who also had military weapons, it would make military action to destroy it the most logical political move. If they succeeded, then they would avoid all of the political consequences of creating AI, which could have crippled them.

They wouldn't have been able to negotiate for peace, because that would have also caused a massive political backlash from the council.

The risks were big, but with what the common train of thought amoung the current species it citadel space, most would have considered it to be logical and correct couse of action. Also, the common thought would be that if they failed to destroy the AI, that the Coucil would help them, as they are politically obligated to.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

First, it's not an assumption, it's a fact. Legion tells you this if you bother to talk to him.

They don't go to war over resources because they have no one to go to war with.

Assumption.

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

...they didn't pursue these possibilities and for that they got what they deserved.

You aren't looking at the entire picture. Not your fault I guess; I'm sure you would if you were capable of thinking on that scale.  You aren't considering the consequences of being wrong.

You're also condoning genocide, but once again I don't think you're sharp enough to understand that.

Looking at the result of the Morning War, it is quite obvious that the quarians would be better off now if they had attempted peace. Throwing around "what ifs" relating to peace being the wrong option isn't going to help much when hindsight is staring you in the face.

Also, resorting to insults is just going to damage any credibility you have left.

The_Real_Lee wrote...
Your missing the point, this isn't about banishment, it's about political responcibilities. When the quarians created the Geth, it was their responcibility to control or destroy their creation. With a force the size of the geth, who also had military weapons, it would make military action to destroy it the most logical political move. If they succeeded, then they would avoid all of the political consequences of creating AI, which could have crippled them.
They wouldn't have been able to negotiate for peace, because that would have also caused a massive political backlash from the council.
The risks were big, but with what the common train of thought amoung the current species it citadel space, most would have considered it to be logical and correct couse of action. Also, the common thought would be that if they failed to destroy the AI, that the Coucil would help them, as they are politically obligated to.

Politics: Important enough to warrant genocide.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 mars 2010 - 08:58 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Shandepared wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What people seem to forget is that the geth didn't wipe out all quarians.

You're right they only wiped out the vast majority of the species.

Honey, keep out of this. Leave this discussion to the adults.

So far you are doing not great yourself, sweetie.

Do you really think that defending yourself against genocide is wrong?

[GuardianAngel470]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

The Quarians struck first because they were supposed to strike first. Any other sentient species would have done it, because it was illegal to make AIs. So every species perceives them as a huge threat.

The Quarians did what they were supposed to do, try to destroy the AI, and hide that they had accidentally created AI.

In the first Mass Effect book, humanity is studying AI, and trying to create an AI to study. They do everything they can to hide their actions, and when it is discovered, they receive a hefty punishment. (Or at lest they would have)

If anyone is to blame for the Quarians first strike, it is all of the laws against AI. If the Quarians did nothing, they would have lost all political pull, all validity as a species, and the sanctions placed upon them would have crippled them.

If anything, the council failed in it's own political duty. The Quarians were an ally, and they abandoned them. It would be the equivalent of Israel being invaded and the UN saying it was their own damn fault.

You're forgetting that the humans only joined the galactic community until after the Morning War.  I was under the impression that until the Geth there was no real reason not to study AI other than a Moral and pragmatic one.  An AI COULD go rogue and do a lot of damage, but until the geth no AI actually had.

I know that human joined after the morning war, but creating AI was already illegal. It was never legal, it has been implied by Tali that there had been a beleif that AIs were always dangerous. It was illegal before the geth creation, and after the geth creation it was just given more merit to the general public.

Yes, but creating one before the geth wasn't grounds to banish a species from the citadel.  After the geth it became a matter of life and death, and much more banishable offense.

Your missing the point, this isn't about banishment, it's about political responcibilities. When the quarians created the Geth, it was their responcibility to control or destroy their creation. With a force the size of the geth, who also had military weapons, it would make military action to destroy it the most logical political move. If they succeeded, then they would avoid all of the political consequences of creating AI, which could have crippled them.

They wouldn't have been able to negotiate for peace, because that would have also caused a massive political backlash from the council.

The risks were big, but with what the common train of thought amoung the current species it citadel space, most would have considered it to be logical and correct couse of action. Also, the common thought would be that if they failed to destroy the AI, that the Coucil would help them, as they are politically obligated to.

I'm currently tasked to capacity and can only maintain one large argument at a time. No but seriously, by banishment, I also meant political fallout, I should have specified, my apologies. They were in a lose/lose situation if your scenario is correct, whereby if they try to destroy the geth they could (and did) suffer major casualties and if they attempt peace they would pay for it in political clout.  I disagree that peace with the geth would result in a loss of political clout because wouldn't that just mean that there is a new sapient spacefaring race in the galaxy?  The initial reaction would be damning but I think the council and the other species would get used to it.

Also, I disagree that the animosity before the geth rebellion was the same amount as after the geth rebellion, I don't think the council placed as much importance on it until after the Morning War.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Looking at the result of the Morning War, it is quite obvious that the quarians would be better off now if they had attempted peace. Throwing around "what ifs" relating to peace being the wrong option isn't going to help much when hindsight is staring you in the face.

Also, resorting to insults is just going to damage any credibility you have left.

No, it is not obvious that the quarians would have been better off attempting peace. If you're going to argue with me then I request that you read my posts fully. If the quarians had attempted peace but failed to achieve it then the outcome of the war may have been even worse for them.

My credibility lies in the merit of my opinions, not in my friendliness.

My observation is based on what Legion has said about being the geth being open to peace with the quarians if you bring him to the flotilla, and on the fact that he geth do not understand the judgements of the quarians during the Morning War.

Yours are based on nothing. After all, you said: "If the quarians had attempted peace but failed to achieve it then the outcome of the war may have been even worse for them." Discussions with Legion provide evidence to the contrary. What evidence do you have?

You also seem to be under the impression that failed peace talks would result in war. The geth could have simply decided to leave for their own corner of the galaxy rather than go to war with the quarians a reason that escapes me. That is assuming the quarians don't give the geth a reason to go to war with them, like attempting genocide.

Also, your credibility in my eyes lies wherever I choose. A person can talk all they want, it doesn't mean people have to listen to them.

Edit: You're also making assumptions about the mindset of the geth during the war, such as "extermination" and "conquest." Legion says the geth fought for continued existence, and I believe him. Everything done in the war by the geth would be rooted in that idea.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Thanks for the insult to my inteligence, that's totally why I'm here. I'm not condoning genocide, Im condoning what eh quarians got.

No problem; I call it like I see it. The fact if you are condoning the genocide perpetuated against the quarian species then you are condoning genocide. There is no way around this.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

And as for the consequences of being wrong the worst that could happen is the geth could go to war with the quarians and all or nearly all quarians would be wiped out.

No, the worst possible outcome is that all the quarians die, or that not enough of them survive to continue the species. Despite striking the first the quarians still only survived because the geth failed to capture all of their space ports and stations. If the quarians had waited longer, giving the geth the chance to become more intelligent and organized, then they may have captured those positions early and prevent many millions of quarians from escaping.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I don't see how attempting peace would make me stupid, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Clearly there are many things you don't understand.

Firstly, I did say that complete extinction was a possibility, read the post.

Secondly, there is a way to passively isolate the geth and make it so that takeover of spaceports is much less likely in the scenario you described.  Letting them get organized is a statement made by ignoring the fact that the geth have no animosity towards the quarians and are barely sapient. 

Thirdly, again with the insults.  Is that really necessary?

[gutty47]

Shandepared wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What crime was that? Defending themselves against genocide?

They themselves comitted genocide. Once the tide turned against the quarians the geth would have had no moral justification for continuing to slaughter them en mass.

Think critically.

Pressing your military advantage is not genocide. If we use the tide turning argument then WW2 would've ended not long after either the Normandy invasion or the German defeat at Stalingrad. You're argument makes no sense.

I can't continue arguing with you when you make statements like:

Shandepared wrote...

gutty47 wrote...

You can't do this with a synthetic species either. Starting from scratch will inevitably result in a different lifeform.

No, it won't. It's basic behaviors will be the same, only its experiences will change.

I can't even begin to describe how wrong that is.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Shandepared wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What crime was that? Defending themselves against genocide?

They themselves comitted genocide. Once the tide turned against the quarians the geth would have had no moral justification for continuing to slaughter them en mass.

Defeining yourself aginst genocide by going to war is not the same as comitting genocide. If your opressors don't want to back off then all you can do is to continue. Remember that the quarians never attempted to discuss the situation. All the quarians could think of was to shut down all geth.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 mars 2010 - 09:24 .

[The_Real_Lee]

I have really enjoyed this debate

[AngryFrozenWater]

Shandepared wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

So far you are doing not great yourself, sweetie.

Do you really think that defending yourself against genocide is wrong?

No, which is why I question the OP's assertion that the quarians "got what they deserved".

I do not think the geth necessarily did anything wrong in "defending themselves", however they took their war far beyond self defense. It became a war of extermination of and conquest. This is beside the issue of whether or not synethetic beings are alive and have inherent rights in the first place. For the sake of the argument (and as a favor to my detractors) I'll assume that they do.

There were no negotiations of any kind by the quarians. Tali tells you this. She tells you that the quarians paniced instead and the quarians decided to exterminate the geth. If there is no chance of solving the disagreement peacefully then all the geth can do against their opressors is continue the war the quarians started in the first place. In the end the geth never exterminated all the quarians. They have chosen to exile them from their home planet instead. After that the geth have chosen to stop the violence. They have retreated for more than 200 years. The first thing we see of them after that is in the form of heretics which serve Nazara. I am sure you don't view the hostilities of the heretics as a continuation of the war the quarians started. As far as I can see the geth ended the war centuries ago, eventhough the quarians never ever attempted any peace negotiations. I respect the geth for that. A good move. Now lets see how the quarians play the ball.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 mars 2010 - 09:59 .

[Cascadus]

This thread is stupid and full of mindless arguing. I don't believe the quarians got exactly what they deserved and I don't believe what happened to the geth was right. However, all I will say is that the massive genocide of the quarians WAS intentional, but I highly doubt the geth had any clue about this. The Codex affirms it's very hard for organics to accept that bodies are meaningless to the geth, so should the same apply in the reverse for the geth. They saw the mindless of death and killing of the quarians akin to shutting down mobile platforms, not REALLY killing them. Doesn't make it right, but I'm not quite sure if they fully comprehended what they were doing.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

My observation is based on what Legion has said about being the geth being open to peace with the quarians if you bring him to the flotilla, and on the fact that he geth do not understand the judgements of the quarians during the Morning War.

Yes, the geth are open to peace now but they sure as hell weren't during the Morning War now were they?  At least not after hostilities had begun.

What makes you think it is the geth who weren't open to peace and not the quarians?

Shandepared wrote...

The quarian leadership had to work against time to reach their decision and in the end they went with the safest option: make first strike to gain an advantage over a disorganized (or so they thought) enemy.

The geth did not first choose to be enemies of the quarians, the quarians assumed they were.

Shandepared wrote...

The geth now exist in massive numbers with massive amounts of resources at their disposal. Of-course they are open to peace: they aren't at risk. Legion has proved nothing and neither have you.

What Legion proved is that the geth fought for continued existence. Had the quarians not directly threatened their existence, there would likely not have been a war.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

You also seem to be under the impression that failed peace talks would result in war. The geth could have simply decided to leave for their own corner of the galaxy rather than go to war with the quarians a reason that escapes me.

If nothing else that would prompt war with the Council and perhaps many other species. It's one thing to have the geth remain behind the Veil, it's quite another to have them flood into the rest of the galaxy. At the same time that would probably incur the Council's wrath against the quarians as well.

What reason would the Council have to go to war with the geth? It would be stupid to go to war with the geth just because they exist. You're also assuming that the geth leaving the quarians would mean they would "flood into the rest of the galaxy." I also specifically said "leave for their own corner of the galaxy," implying isolation.

Shandepared wrote...

I swear, I'm the only person here who actually thinks these things through instead of making blind assumptions about what I want to happen and then assuming that is true.

That is amusing considering what I just said.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 mars 2010 - 11:19 .

[GuardianAngel470]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

I have really enjoyed this debate

Thats good.

[epoch_]

I agree. But I think they've paid long enough.