423 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

The geth don't understand why the Quarians tried to shut them down. The Quarians were trying to wipe out a sentient race becasue the knew if the didn't it would come around and bite them in the rear. Shepard even says that it is hard to feel sympathy for the Quarians about the Geth because the Quarians tried to wipe out a sentient race (ME 1).



So no I don't feel bad about the morning war. The Quarians deserved it.... and may still if they go to war against the Geth again. Legion says that the Geth are possibly open to peace with the Quarians... it seems like the Quarians are the ones that still want to fight.

[Vanaer]

They should reconcile, but I do agree with the OP. The Quarians had it coming. You can't just wipe out a species because it asks critical questions. It's time to make up though, the Quarians have suffered enough.

[GenericPlayer2]

I agree with the OP more or less. If given a choice in ME3, I won't assist the Quarians unless they completely give up the notion of attacking the Geth, be it through conventional attacks or hacking.

applehug wrote...

Except the Geth are machines and have no feelings or emotions.

Its exactly that kind of mentality that got the Quarians where they are now.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 07 mars 2010 - 08:10 .

[GenericPlayer2]

Never-Red wrote...

Well when ever I think of the Quarians I just think of Battlestar Galactica. Basically the same story almost word for word.

Its not the same story. In BSG the humans and cylons signed an Armistice  that ended the war. The humans had all but forgotten about the Cylon threat and moved on with their lives. The Cylons came back and broke that treaty and nuked all but 50,000 humans that managed to get away.

Maybe there is more information in the new series Caprica, but I have not been regularly following that (a bit too existential for my taste)

[Inverness Moon]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Never-Red wrote...

Well when ever I think of the Quarians I just think of Battlestar Galactica. Basically the same story almost word for word.

Its not the same story. In BSG the humans and cylons signed an Armistice  that ended the war. The humans had all but forgotten about the Cylon threat and moved on with their lives. The Cylons came back and broke that treaty and nuked all but 50,000 humans that managed to get away.

Maybe there is more information in the new series Caprica, but I have not been regularly following that (a bit too existential for my taste)

Indeed, and in that case it was the created, not the creators that sought and actively pursued genocide when they didn't kill everyone in the first round.

[GuardianAngel470]

Vanaer wrote...

They should reconcile, but I do agree with the OP. The Quarians had it coming. You can't just wipe out a species because it asks critical questions. It's time to make up though, the Quarians have suffered enough.

I wasn't very clear in the OP, I was having a hard time formulating what I wanted to say.  I don't think the Migrant Fleet Quarians should be held responsible for the Morning War quarians' actions.  As far as I'm concerned, the very next generation should have been able to return to the homeworld, but it takes an alien commander and a galactic threat to finally end hostilities, so return wasn't really an option.

[Schneidend]

KalosCast wrote...

Every conventional war (ancient to World War II) has been won through attacking civilian strongholds, not military ones. Then the winner apologizes only after they can't get punished for it (and can take advantage of the losers resources). If anything, this proves that the Geth are much more human than any other evidence.

Attacking civilian strongholds with the intent to capture government buildings and military bases, not slaughter every civilian in the area. The geth dropped colonies and committed other atrocities with the specific intent to kill as many noncombatants as possible. You can compare the actions of the geth to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, but not to, say, the sacking of Berlin. Sacking cities and totally annihilating cities are completely different.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The smart, logical, and amazingly obvious thing to do would be to set them free.  Free geth means revolt avoided.

Even if that were an option the quarians considered, they also had the problem of political backlash from the Council if the other races had found out about the geth achieving sentience. There was also no guarantee the newly sentient geth wouldn't feel resentment and attack regardless. The fact that the geth wouldn't have  attacked is only in hindsight. The quarians simply did not know what would happen and thus tried to end the problem before it became a problem. Remember, at the time it was thought that most geth were not yet self-aware, and that those asking questions were only an alarmingly significant percentage.

Modifié par Schneidend, 08 mars 2010 - 08:11 .

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Before you post I want you to know that I love the quarians.  They reflect many of the things I like about myself, as well as many of my interests.  This isn't a bashing thread.

The geth and quarian conflict was started by the quarians, we can all agree on that I hope.  The quarians reacted to the fact that the geth had achieved sapience by attempting to deactivate, permanently, all geth systems.  This is what's called genocide, and completely unacceptable (unless you are a ****, in which case you think it is perfectly acceptable).  The geth responded in kind, decimating the quarian population.  they got exactly what they were trying to do to the geth. Thus, they got what they deserved.  

That's my train of logic, convoluted as it is.  

Ah, yet another Geth vs Quarian debate.  This debate is going constantly and never gets anywhere.  Everyone's opinion boils down to whether you consider the Geth to be really advanced toasters or people.

[CmdrFenix83]

Darht Jayder wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...


Ah, yet another Geth vs Quarian debate.  This debate is going constantly and never gets anywhere.  Everyone's opinion boils down to whether you consider the Geth to be really advanced toasters or people.

I disagree, this debate will only close when the Quarians truly do get what they deserve, which is to be wiped form the face of the galaxy by the Geth, whether or not the Geth are considered people or advanced toasters....mmmmmmmm toast.

But then again who will collect the galaxy's garbage if the quarians are gone.

Which assumes that they deserved what happened to them.  Which again assumes they did something wrong by making advanced toasters in the first place.  They weren't AI, they were just VI that happened to gain higher thought processes by linking together.  The Quarians weren't aware this neural network would cause sapient toasters, and moved to shut them down.  The Toasters went Skynet mode and moved to exterminate them in defense of themselves. 

This is the exact plot from the Terminator series(at least 1 and 2 before the events at Cyberdyne changed things).  Did you also sympathize with Skynet and believe humanity deserved to be wiped out in that plotline as well?  Or is it the fact that instead of a self-aware computer in cyberspace, they have individual, humanoid bodies that they can move around in that makes this more sympathetic?

[DariusKalera]

The Quarians reacted in the same way that we would react if suddenly the internet and all technology connected to it suddenly became self aware.



We would try to shut it down as quickly as possible. Especially if that self awareness was accidental and not because of deliberate programing.



The world would not rejoice and we would not try to reason with it. We would try to isolate it as quickly as possible so that we could try to figure out what the hell happened.



Once that occurred an we were sure that it was not a threat then, maybe, we would try talking to it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I would actually get really curious if electronics became self aware

[The Angry One]

Comparing the Geth to Skynet is like comparing the American colonials to Hitler (no, no, this is a legitimate comparison).

Skynet put people in concentration camps and tried to exterminate them after nuking them. The Geth kicked the Quarians out of their homeworld because the Quarians were so rock stupid that they never, ever sought peace and the Geth had enough.



Note that the Geth never attacked them once the Quarians left, heretics nonwithstanding.

[marshalleck]

The Angry One wrote...

Note that the Geth never attacked them once the Quarians left, heretics nonwithstanding.

So what? That makes killing quarian children and quarians who never made any attempt at attacking geth acceptable? You can safely assume precisely that situation occurred millions of times if the quarian homeworld and all her colonies were lost in the war.

At any rate, the geth themselves believe they took their actions in the Morning War too far, which is why they've turned the quarian homeworld into one giant memorial and preserve it. Ask Legion about it. Case closed. Both sides were wrong.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 08:39 .

[The Angry One]

marshalleck wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Note that the Geth never attacked them once the Quarians left, heretics nonwithstanding.

So what? That makes killing quarian children and quarians who never made any attempt at attacking geth acceptable? You can safely assume precisely that situation occurred millions of times if the quarian homeworld and all her colonies were lost in the war.

Hey, this just in: War sucks!
Especially for the loser. Yes I'm sure many Quarian civilians and children suffered. Maybe the Quarian leadership should've thought of that before attempting to engage in genocide multiple times.

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

Comparing the Geth to Skynet is like comparing the American colonials to Hitler (no, no, this is a legitimate comparison).
Skynet put people in concentration camps and tried to exterminate them after nuking them. The Geth kicked the Quarians out of their homeworld because the Quarians were so rock stupid that they never, ever sought peace and the Geth had enough.

Note that the Geth never attacked them once the Quarians left, heretics nonwithstanding.

Completely irrelevant.  Skynet was in control of our nuclear weapon silos.  The Geth were labor forces and didn't have access to such weaponry.  The Geth systematically slaughtered every Quarian man, woman, and child, billions of them, until the Quarians fled the entire sector of the galaxy.  Machine dubbs organic as threat, moves to exterminate species.  Quarians flee beyond Veil, prove to longer be a threat due to insignificant numbers, Geth do not pursue.  The only difference is that the Quarians had spaceships with which to flee on, where humanity doesn't. 

Now, 300 years later, the descendants of said Quarians are still stuck on these ships, while the Geth still attack them on sight.  Heretics or not, it's not like their mobile platforms have different colors or flags on them to allow it to be possible to distinguish between the two.  Neither side has any reason to trust the other.

The Geth didn't kick the Quarians out.  The Quarians ran to avoid being exterminated.  These situations are completely different in their outcomes due to different situations, however the premise is identical.  Self-aware computers defend themselves with attempted genocide.

[marshalleck]

The Angry One wrote...

Hey, this just in: War sucks!
Especially for the loser. Yes I'm sure many Quarian civilians and children suffered. Maybe the Quarian leadership should've thought of that before attempting to engage in genocide multiple times.

They didn't consider their actions tantamount to genocide, because at the time the decision was made it was believed that the geth had not broadly achieved sentience.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 08:43 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Darht Jayder wrote...

I agree with The Angry One. Plus many in the Quarian fleet still feel that genocide would be justified.

Which for me personally is why I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the Quarians. 

Any attempt to take back their homeworld by force would most likely have the goal of eradicating the Geth.  I have not heard anywhere where they Geth have actively pursued the Migrant Fleet in order to destroy it.  While billions of Quarians may have died in the Morning War if their true intention was Genocide why not go all the way?  It seems that the Geth were too integrated on their homeworld and they killed indiscriminately because they believed that all Quarians were out to destroy them.  Other than that we do not know true Geth intentions from that time period, we only know that the Quarians seem to be divided on making peace, performing Genocide or enslaving the Geth.  2/3'ds of that I can not get behind.

[marshalleck]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Several had shown signs that they had achieved sentience and the Quarian response was genocide.  No matter how they justified it a spade is a spade and genocide is still genocide.

It's actually critical to correctly understanding the situation, and judging by your posts you really don't have an actual interest in the topic. "Several" geth is just a limited phenomenon; deactivating all geth while you study how a few became sentient is a logical decision to reach.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 08:49 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Darht Jayder wrote...

First they deserve it for their initial attempt at genocide.  Also this sentiment still carries on throughout the Quarian fleet as evidenced by Tali's father.  They are war criminals. 

My real reasons however are far less grounded and more in line with my general dislike of the Quarians as a whole in the ME universe and think of them mostly as useless pests. 

Geth much cooler and therefore Quarians should die.

::sighs::  Again, this goes back to my original post here.  It's not genocide unless you consider them people.  If I threw my computer out the window, it wouldn't be murder, even if it was self-aware.  This entire discussion boils down to "Do you consider sentient toasters to be people?"  I don't, so I side with the Quarians, not that my opinion here is relevant to my point.

Also, Rael'Zorah is a traitor for assembling Geth.  His systemic viral attacks on their systems after-the-fact aren't crimes.  Synthetics aren't given rights within Citadel Space.  They aren't considered people.  In fact, there are standing orders to disable or shut them down on sight.  Rael's crime was reactivating them, nothing more.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Eliminating sentient beings to study them or out of paranoia is wrong no matter what their body chemistry is, machine or organic

[marshalleck]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Eliminating sentient beings to study them or out of paranoia is wrong no matter what their body chemistry is, machine or organic

It's never said that the sentient geth were destroyed or deactivated; what is said is that the vast numbers of geth were believed not to be sentient and so they were ordered shut down in order to prevent them from becoming so.

In hindsight that was a mistake, yes. The quarian mistake was in underestimating how far the geth had developed by the time the shut down order was called for. If the quarians believed that all geth were sentient, a different decision might have been made.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 08:54 .