423 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Hey Commander,

I respect all points of view but the ones that denigrate others. Please do not call it 'religious BS'. Thank you.

Grow thicker skin, sweetie.

GuardianAngel470

Tell me, why is it is you are so concerned with the inherent rights of geth as a sapient species being violated yet you are so casual about the rights of the quarians being trampled over? Did they not have the right to defend themselves as well? You do realize their 'attack' upon the geth was ultimately an act of self-defense, yes? Defending yourself does not mean waiting for the other party to hit first.

The quarians attacked first, and they continued to attack, perpetuating hostilities, thus they asked for what they got.  Choosing to destroy a budding race even though you know they are sapient, hell, because they are sapient, means they attempted to commit an atrocity, and then it devolves into an eye for an eye.  The Morning War isn't very well explained, however, so my opinion is necessarily based on assumptions and on half-clear lines of dialog. If it turns out that the geth weren't as widely possessed as Tali makes them seem in my convos with her in ME1 then I will gladly come on this thread and rescind my opinion.

[CmdrFenix83]

Darht Jayder wrote...
Wow.  Scary.  A clone would have no rights.  .  Are you sure you are not The Illusive Man personified?

Cloning(just like AI in the ME world) should remain completely illegal.  Then again, I also am against any form of modifications beyond a transplanted organ.  I don't even condone things as small as breast implants.  Natural is natural, and that's the way things should be.  ::shrug::

[Nibroc17]

Never-Red wrote...

Well when ever I think of the Quarians I just think of Battlestar Galactica. Basically the same story almost word for word.

Lols no not the same. Cylons attacked first and they went to war. Then they declared an armistice. Then the holocaust happened leaving 50,000 out of billions quite possibly almost a trillion... so no not the same. the main difference being who struck first.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Hey Commander,

I respect all points of view but the ones that denigrate others. Please do not call it 'religious BS'. Thank you.

Grow thicker skin, sweetie.

GuardianAngel470

Tell me, why is it is you are so concerned with the inherent rights of geth as a sapient species being violated yet you are so casual about the rights of the quarians being trampled over? Did they not have the right to defend themselves as well? You do realize their 'attack' upon the geth was ultimately an act of self-defense, yes? Defending yourself does not mean waiting for the other party to hit first.

The quarians attacked first, and they continued to attack, perpetuating hostilities, thus they asked for what they got.  Choosing to destroy a budding race even though you know they are sapient, hell, because they are sapient, means they attempted to commit an atrocity, and then it devolves into an eye for an eye.  The Morning War isn't very well explained, however, so my opinion is necessarily based on assumptions and on half-clear lines of dialog. If it turns out that the geth weren't as widely possessed as Tali makes them seem in my convos with her in ME1 then I will gladly come on this thread and rescind my opinion.

You simply don't know that the Quarians attacked over and over.  The Quarians attempted to shut down, and the Geth retaliated.  Absolutely no details are known other than the result of billions of dead Quarians and their flee into space.  A handful of isolated incidents with Geth asking questions about their existence is mentioned by both Tali and Legion.  Tali states that the Quarian leadership came to the conclusion that the newly-sentient Geth would rebel against their situation as labor, and they ordered a universal shut down in hopes of stopping them before it was too late.  She then says that they had underestimated the power of the neural network and that the Geth were more advanced than the Quarians thought.

As marshalleck  stated, and as I have said in other threads on the topic, at the time, the Quarians believed they were doing the equivalent to a recall on malfunctioning machines.  They simply hadn't realized how far along in their development the Geth had become, and it bit them in the ass, hard.

[marshalleck]

Side note, just because I've seen it mentioned a few times in this thread and I think it's worth clearing up.

AI research is not completely illegal in Council space, however it is tightly controlled. Synthetic Insights is one corporation that is licensed to conduct it. Also, the quarians never violated any laws about AI research when they were working on the geth. The geth were specifically designed with the intent that they should not become intelligent, period. Adjustments were made so they could accomplish more complex tasks, but they were always small, gradual changes. The problem was that because the changes were so small and gradual, the cumulative effects proved impossible to adequately trace which is how the quarians ended up getting caught off guard. Geth intelligence and consciousness is a mistake. They weren't "designed for slavery" or any other hyperbolic garbage like that.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 10:07 .

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Hey Commander,

I respect all points of view but the ones that denigrate others. Please do not call it 'religious BS'. Thank you.

Grow thicker skin, sweetie.

GuardianAngel470

Tell me, why is it is you are so concerned with the inherent rights of geth as a sapient species being violated yet you are so casual about the rights of the quarians being trampled over? Did they not have the right to defend themselves as well? You do realize their 'attack' upon the geth was ultimately an act of self-defense, yes? Defending yourself does not mean waiting for the other party to hit first.

The quarians attacked first, and they continued to attack, perpetuating hostilities, thus they asked for what they got.  Choosing to destroy a budding race even though you know they are sapient, hell, because they are sapient, means they attempted to commit an atrocity, and then it devolves into an eye for an eye.  The Morning War isn't very well explained, however, so my opinion is necessarily based on assumptions and on half-clear lines of dialog. If it turns out that the geth weren't as widely possessed as Tali makes them seem in my convos with her in ME1 then I will gladly come on this thread and rescind my opinion.

You simply don't know that the Quarians attacked over and over.  The Quarians attempted to shut down, and the Geth retaliated.  Absolutely no details are known other than the result of billions of dead Quarians and their flee into space.  A handful of isolated incidents with Geth asking questions about their existence is mentioned by both Tali and Legion.  Tali states that the Quarian leadership came to the conclusion that the newly-sentient Geth would rebel against their situation as labor, and they ordered a universal shut down in hopes of stopping them before it was too late.  She then says that they had underestimated the power of the neural network and that the Geth were more advanced than the Quarians thought.

As marshalleck  stated, and as I have said in other threads on the topic, at the time, the Quarians believed they were doing the equivalent to a recall on malfunctioning machines.  They simply hadn't realized how far along in their development the Geth had become, and it bit them in the ass, hard.

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

[CmdrFenix83]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Cloning(just like AI in the ME world) should remain completely illegal.  Then again, I also am against any form of modifications beyond a transplanted organ.  I don't even condone things as small as breast implants.  Natural is natural, and that's the way things should be.  ::shrug::

Not to agree or disagree since I am on the fence with this, but I am curious as to your reasoning for this.

As I said in the last sentence.  Natural is natural.  It's the way things are meant to be, and therefor should be.  Cloning, playing with genetics, etc, is science screwing with nature; going against the natural order of the world.  Hence, I believe it is wrong.

As to the above talking about the 20 cloned people.  I view those individuals as abominations created by people screwing with things they shouldn't be.  If I knew beyond a doubt that those 20 were the cloned ones and not the originals, I could destroy them and sleep soundly that night.

[CmdrFenix83]

Grrr.  Double post.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 08 mars 2010 - 10:11 .

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

They ordered a shut down of the geth because of a limited phenomena of geth displaying signs of advanced self-awareness and identity. It was a policy of containment, not murder or "genocide."

[Onyx Jaguar]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Cloning(just like AI in the ME world) should remain completely illegal.  Then again, I also am against any form of modifications beyond a transplanted organ.  I don't even condone things as small as breast implants.  Natural is natural, and that's the way things should be.  ::shrug::

Not to agree or disagree since I am on the fence with this, but I am curious as to your reasoning for this.

As I said in the last sentence.  Natural is natural.  It's the way things are meant to be, and therefor should be.  Cloning, playing with genetics, etc, is science screwing with nature; going against the natural order of the world.  Hence, I believe it is wrong.

As to the above talking about the 20 cloned people.  I view those individuals as abominations created by people screwing with things they shouldn't be.  If I knew beyond a doubt that those 20 were the cloned ones and not the originals, I could destroy them and sleep soundly that night.

I disagree with you 100%, if you can create it it is natural. 

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

Apparently, you didn't pay attention to Tali in ME1.  They moved on the belief that the few incidents of Geth sapience were isolated, and that they could stop it before it became widespread.

[GuardianAngel470]

Also, if you read my whole post Commander fenix, you would have seen that I acknowledged my ignorance on the exact situation and that I was making an assumption based on the information I know now from Tali and Legion. And the Codex.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

Apparently, you didn't pay attention to Tali in ME1.  They moved on the belief that the few incidents of Geth sapience were isolated, and that they could stop it before it became widespread.

How does that change my arguement? They attempted to halt a species from attaining sapience and to eradicate those that already had.  That's still genocide.

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I disagree with you 100%, if you can create it it is natural. 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion as much as I am.  I disagree that anything created by man is natural.  Most of these things are tools, machines, and the like simply to make life easier.  It's when you start screwing around with living things that I have a problem.

[Big Yam]

The Geth have no right to exist. Killing one is like tossing out an old pc. Meaningless.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, if you read my whole post Commander fenix, you would have seen that I acknowledged my ignorance on the exact situation and that I was making an assumption based on the information I know now from Tali and Legion. And the Codex.

You claimed that the leadership knew that all the Geth were sapient in that post. 

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

Apparently, you didn't pay attention to Tali in ME1.  They moved on the belief that the few incidents of Geth sapience were isolated, and that they could stop it before it became widespread.

How does that change my arguement? They attempted to halt a species from attaining sapience and to eradicate those that already had.  That's still genocide.

Genocide has nothing to do with 'attaining sapience' or the prevention of such. You're playing with this incredibly volatile (and dare I say inappropriately overused) word in a very fast and loose way--a way which I suspect is intended to garner emotional support for your argument rather than logical.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 10:18 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Big Yam wrote...

The Geth have no right to exist. Killing one is like tossing out an old pc. Meaningless.

That was a meaningless addition to this thread.  Why do the geth have no rights to exist?  How is it comparable to throwing out an old PC? One is sapient and the other isn't.  Back up random statements here, everyone is.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How does that change my arguement? They attempted to halt a species from attaining sapience and to eradicate those that already had.  That's still genocide.

Again, it's only genocide if you consider the malfunctioning robots to be alive, sentient or not.  To put it more bluntly...

Big Yam...

The Geth have no right to exist. Killing one is like tossing out an old pc. Meaningless.

...this is exactly my stance.

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

Apparently, you didn't pay attention to Tali in ME1.  They moved on the belief that the few incidents of Geth sapience were isolated, and that they could stop it before it became widespread.

How does that change my arguement? They attempted to halt a species from attaining sapience and to eradicate those that already had.  That's still genocide.

Genocide has nothing to do with 'attaining sapience.' You're playing with this incredibly volatile (and dare I say inappropriately overused) word in a very fast and loose way.

To use an earlier analogy, what if 300 gorillas attained sapience? They're big and powerful, could be a threat to humans.  Would we be justified in killing every last gorilla so that the species was completely extinct? Wouldn't you call that genocide?

[Beerfish]

My toaster burned a piece of toast.

I was afraid of it so I took a sledgehammer to it.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

To use an earlier analogy, what if 300 gorillas attained sapience? They're big and powerful, could be a threat to humans.  Would we be justified in killing every last gorilla so that the species was completely extinct? Wouldn't you call that genocide?

I would call that a horribly flawed analogy. The geth as they existed 300 years ago were nothing at all like a naturally evolved organism.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 10:20 .