423 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

I am looking foward to negotiating peace between the Geth and the Quarians in ME3.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, if you read my whole post Commander fenix, you would have seen that I acknowledged my ignorance on the exact situation and that I was making an assumption based on the information I know now from Tali and Legion. And the Codex.

You claimed that the leadership knew that all the Geth were sapient in that post. 

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, if you read my whole post Commander fenix, you would have seen that I acknowledged my ignorance on the exact situation and that I was making an assumption based on the information I know now from Tali and Legion. And the Codex.

You claimed that the leadership knew that all the Geth were sapient in that post.  

Yes, I did. based on the assumption that someone had to come up with the order to permanently deactivate all geth.  That was most likely the leadership on Rannoch.  And I never said all, you projected that.  I just said geth, in reference to the ones that had achieved sapience, which it turns out is most of them, or else there would have been no war.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

To use an earlier analogy, what if 300 gorillas attained sapience? They're big and powerful, could be a threat to humans.  Would we be justified in killing every last gorilla so that the species was completely extinct? Wouldn't you call that genocide?

A gorilla is at least a living creature.  Geth are fabricated machines meant to do dangerous or menial tasks, much like the robotic arms and things we use on assembly lines today.  A machine that can recognize its' own existence is either programmed to do so and imitates real life, or is malfunctioning and worthy of being completely recalled for being faulty.  Geth are nothing more than malfunctioning equipment.

[marshalleck]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

A better analogy I think would be if all our pc's were upgraded and started to show signs of intelligence and became threatening to us.  What would we do?

I think some people really would be more inclined to sit there in their chair talking to their computer instead of isloting it from the network and running anti-virus scans.

[GuardianAngel470]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I am looking foward to negotiating peace between the Geth and the Quarians in ME3.

Me too. I really can't wait.  I hope it is what the expansion is about.  That would be awesome.

[CuthbertTheAllgood]

Machines are machines. The Quarians did right in their attempt to destroy them for a multitude of reasons, one of those being that they were a threat to the entire galaxy and the Quarians could be exiled from citadel space.



Also, geth do not "feel" they build a consensus based on the supposed "logical" outcomes. They do not experience fear (I believe legion states this).

[GuardianAngel470]

marshalleck wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

A better analogy I think would be if all our pc's were upgraded and started to show signs of intelligence and became threatening to us.  What would we do?

I think some people really would be more inclined to sit there in their chair talking to their computer instead of isloting it from the network and running anti-virus scans.

Dude, can you imagine how awesome it would be to have a sapient computer for a friend? you could use it play tricks on your lowly organic friends, have a good laugh.

[CmdrFenix83]

marshalleck wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

A better analogy I think would be if all our pc's were upgraded and started to show signs of intelligence and became threatening to us.  What would we do?

I think some people really would be more inclined to sit there in their chair talking to their computer instead of isloting it from the network and running anti-virus scans.

I've stated this question myself.  I definitely would be doing the latter.  If I couldn't find and remove the issue causing my PC to act as if it's alive, I'd try reformating it.  That doesn't work, it's 'hammer time'.

[alphax1]

The Geth are/were self aware... They can and do make decisions based on external input their original programming never called for... Heck the very fact that they can form an opinion points to the fact that they are sentient beings...



The original Quarians were wrong in trying to destroy the Geth and they paid dearly for it. So yeah they brought it on themselves... I dunno whether they really deserved near extinction for it though... it will depend on if they just kept breaking themselves on the Geth or they decided to flee and were hunted out of the Perseus Veil.

[CmdrFenix83]

alphax1 wrote...

The Geth are/were self aware... They can and do make decisions based on external input their original programming never called for... Heck the very fact that they can form an opinion points to the fact that they are sentient beings...

The original Quarians were wrong in trying to destroy the Geth and they paid dearly for it. So yeah they brought it on themselves... I dunno whether they really deserved near extinction for it though... it will depend on if they just kept breaking themselves on the Geth or they decided to flee and were hunted out of the Perseus Veil.

See the bolded statement.  That would be called a malfunction of their software.  The Quarians have every right to recall their faulty products in an attempt to fix the errors.

[marshalleck]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

A better analogy I think would be if all our pc's were upgraded and started to show signs of intelligence and became threatening to us.  What would we do?

I think some people really would be more inclined to sit there in their chair talking to their computer instead of isloting it from the network and running anti-virus scans.

Dude, can you imagine how awesome it would be to have a sapient computer for a friend? you could use it play tricks on your lowly organic friends, have a good laugh.

The problem here though, which seems utterly incomprehensible to you, is that by all rights the geth should not have become intelligent. The quarians built them and programmed them, just as the electrical, software, and mechanical engineers of today are responsible for our own computers, computerized systems and robotics. These people know their work inside and out, know the extent of their designs, their functions, the limits of their capabilities. If one of these systems suddenly asked its creator if it had a soul, ALL the objective evidence and intuition in the world would point to a course of error-checking, not assuming the system is now magically alive and granting your desktop PC citizenship rights.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[GuardianAngel470]

CuthbertTheAllgood wrote...

Machines are machines. The Quarians did right in their attempt to destroy them for a multitude of reasons, one of those being that they were a threat to the entire galaxy and the Quarians could be exiled from citadel space.

Also, geth do not "feel" they build a consensus based on the supposed "logical" outcomes. They do not experience fear (I believe legion states this).

The threat to the entire galaxy part is what's in question.  The geth, from my understanding, showed absolutely no hostility towards organics until the Morning War, and even after that there was no hostility, just a violent protection of privacy.  The geth didn't come beyond the Veil in 327 years, the only organics they touched were the ones who tried to infringe upon their space.

And what I was talking about in regards to feeling is legion's apparent display of admiration.  I could be reading his responses wrong and if that original beginning is true then I am wrong, but based on my observation of legion's behavior I believe he, and EDI, are capable of synthetic emotion.

EDIT: Also, the fact that there was a lack of consensus aboard heretic station means that they do indeed feel.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[Chaplin_M]

i agree with the OP for a few reasons

1. the Quarians skirted(right word?) the laws on actual A.I. tech

2. The Quarians over reacted, i mean seriously did the Geth show signs of aggression then? IDK that answer btw

3. and this is the big point Why not have Quarians at the Geth main frame servers to deal with it in the first place i mean seriously why not be there for maintenance or anything else



... kinda half thought these so no real thought put in to it

[Onyx Jaguar]

I keep hearing about how Geth attaining Sapience is a mistake, unintentional an accident if you were. The same can be said for all organic life, variances on sapience isn't an inscribed rule it happens by chance.

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

No, they can't have done it out of ignorance.  Don't you remember why they felt it was necessary to shut down the geth in the first place?  It was because the geth started to question the quarians about their existance, a very sapient thing to do.  The quarians decided to attack because they were worried that the geth might revolt, but the leadership who gave the order definitely knew the geth were sapient.  There was no plausible deniability on their part.  They attacked because the geth were sapient.

Apparently, you didn't pay attention to Tali in ME1.  They moved on the belief that the few incidents of Geth sapience were isolated, and that they could stop it before it became widespread.

How does that change my arguement? They attempted to halt a species from attaining sapience and to eradicate those that already had.  That's still genocide.

Genocide has nothing to do with 'attaining sapience.' You're playing with this incredibly volatile (and dare I say inappropriately overused) word in a very fast and loose way.

To use an earlier analogy, what if 300 gorillas attained sapience? They're big and powerful, could be a threat to humans.  Would we be justified in killing every last gorilla so that the species was completely extinct? Wouldn't you call that genocide?

A better analogy I think would be if all our pc's were upgraded and started to show signs of intelligence and became threatening to us.  What would we do?

I know that everything in a computer happens for a reason, I'd probably run diagnostics.  The equivalent response to your analogy from the quarian perspective would be to immediately destroy the computer.  After those diagnostics were completed and I know for certain that sapience had been achieved, I'd ask it what it wanted, and attempt to facilitate it's desire.


EDIT: Johnny, define became threatening.  Because my analogy is accurate in it's protrayal of the Quarian thought process.  They believed that the only possible outcome of the geth attaining sentience would be revolution.  That's the same as assuming that the newly sapient gorrillas would attack us because we were driving cars though their land.  Unfortunately, that's where the analogy hits a wall.  Actions that we can assume the gorrillas would take based on human history can't be applied to the geth.  The geth don't feel fear, rage, or sadness like organics, not at that point anyway, so actions we would expect the gorillas to take wouldn't be taken by the geth.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 mars 2010 - 10:42 .

[alphax1]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

alphax1 wrote...

The Geth are/were self aware... They can and do make decisions based on external input their original programming never called for... Heck the very fact that they can form an opinion points to the fact that they are sentient beings...

The original Quarians were wrong in trying to destroy the Geth and they paid dearly for it. So yeah they brought it on themselves... I dunno whether they really deserved near extinction for it though... it will depend on if they just kept breaking themselves on the Geth or they decided to flee and were hunted out of the Perseus Veil.

See the bolded statement.  That would be called a malfunction of their software.  The Quarians have every right to recall their faulty products in an attempt to fix the errors.

Well if I pulled up Excel to do something and it told me to shove it that would be an obvious malfunction.... If I then tried to shut it down and it resisted with firearms and tactics that would also be a malfunction... But honestly if something is saying it is sentient and it's pointing a gun at me to defend itself I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt....

You really have no case that the Geth are just malfunctioning programs considering they act of their own volition. I'm pretty sure no Quarian programmed any Geth to build a Dyson Sphere...

[marshalleck]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I keep hearing about how Geth attaining Sapience is a mistake, unintentional an accident if you were. The same can be said for all organic life, variances on sapience isn't an inscribed rule it happens by chance.

It's crucial for understanding the quarian reaction to their predicament. Council races know how to create AI. The quarians know how to create AI. The geth were created to NOT be AI. But they became such. That is by definition an accident.

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I keep hearing about how Geth attaining Sapience is a mistake, unintentional an accident if you were. The same can be said for all organic life, variances on sapience isn't an inscribed rule it happens by chance.

Nature vs malfunctioning programs.  Organic life develops on its' own.  Synthetics are purposefully created by organics.  In this case, it's faulty programing.

[Onyx Jaguar]

marshalleck wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I keep hearing about how Geth attaining Sapience is a mistake, unintentional an accident if you were. The same can be said for all organic life, variances on sapience isn't an inscribed rule it happens by chance.

It's crucial for understanding the quarian reaction to their predicament. Council races know how to create AI. The quarians know how to create AI. The geth were created to NOT be AI. But they became such. That is by definition an accident.

Exactly

[Onyx Jaguar]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I keep hearing about how Geth attaining Sapience is a mistake, unintentional an accident if you were. The same can be said for all organic life, variances on sapience isn't an inscribed rule it happens by chance.

Nature vs malfunctioning programs.  Organic life develops on its' own.  Synthetics are purposefully created by organics.  In this case, it's faulty programing.

Mutation is essentially faulty programming and that is a naturally occuring process

[marshalleck]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Exactly

Then you understand why the quarian reaction was to shut down the geth until such time as they had a thorough understanding of what had happened and how to correct it?

[Onyx Jaguar]

marshalleck wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Exactly

Then you understand why the quarian reaction was to shut down the geth until such time as they had a thorough understanding of what had happened and how to correct it?

I understand both sides

I am more sympathetic to the Geth

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I know that everything in a computer happens for a reason, I'd probably run diagnostics.  The equivalent response to your analogy from the quarian perspective would be to immediately destroy the computer.  After those diagnostics were completed and I know for certain that sapience had been achieved, I'd ask it what it wanted, and attempt to facilitate it's desire.

Again, you're reading into this what you want to.  Tali said they ordered a SHUT DOWN, of all Geth.  Not destruction.  Shut down and recall.  Stop them all from attaining sapience, and then take apart and figure out what went wrong with the ones that did gain sapience.  

Your opinion of you sentient computer might change when it kills you because your neighbor had the same issue(thanks to the internet) and he responded out of fear like most individuals would.  How many instances of 'talking computer, fix it fix it!' would it take before they all decided that humanity was a threat and needed to be eliminated?  Your curiosity and desire to make friends with your computer would not be the was everyone would react.