158 réponses à ce sujet

[MonkeyLungs]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I think Commander Shepard is portrayed well. Being a choice-driven RPG, most of the emotion Shepard should feel is left for the player to feel. This is great because it not only influences your decisions down the road, but it makes you feel like YOU are Shepard. While it would be nice to see the darker, more traumatized aspect of his personality, I can understand why Bioware hasn't really explored it. It's very difficult to have your character express emotion in any significant way because there's a good chance that it's not how the player would react.

Also, I gotta say it; I felt Mark Meer did an exceptional job with Shepard's voice acting in most parts, with only a handful of lines falling flat. Forgive me for saying this, but I cannot bring myself to play as a female Shepard. Jennifer Hale's voice inflections feel way too out of place and over-emphasized.

I was going to write something but Picard here said it already. It deserved a quoting for sure.

I think Hale did fine work though and I enjoy my Femsheps too. I just prefer Meer.

Modifié par MonkeyLungs, 08 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[Weskerr]

I think what you're saying is that no matter how good the voice actor, Shepard's dialogue just makes it impossible for his character to show any depth. What I think is the real problem is the fact that the player chooses pre-made dialogue which then determines what Shepard literally says out loud. If this game were devoid of dialogue choices, then Shepard would undoubtedly seem to have more depth than he does now. The writers would be able to develop his character in any way they wanted. As it stands, Shepard's character is controlled and directed by the player, so the writers really have only an indirect influence on how his character develops. This is also why it seems like the supporting characters have more depth. The writers have much more control over their stories, personalities, and reactions to changing circumstances.

[Looper128]

Shep is a workaholic, he loves his job to much to get traumatized.

[Vaeliorin]

SLPr0 wrote...

Spectre 117 wrote...
[*]If you think shepard isnt an interesting character as the protagonist then you my friend have not played dragon age.......XD

Oh I agree hes a got more depth than the Grey Warden but the Grey Warden wasn't voiced at all, so comparatively to the Grey Warden's companions the Grey Warden is like furniture thats just around to set off conversation sequences. So yes John Shepard > Grey Warden in regards to character depth, but thats not saying much.

The problem here is that given that the Grey Warden isn't voice-acted, his emotional state is entirely under the player's control.  But with Shepard, given that he's voice-acted and given actions outside of the player's control, it's up to the voice actors/writers/scripters to provide the emotions of the character.  The Grey Warden can be upset, happy, sad, teary, or any other emotion the player wants as he delivers his lines, but Shepard is, with rare exception, always on a fairly even keel.

Honestly, this is one of the major problems with having a voiced protagonist in a supposed RPG (particularly when you're limited to 3 dialogue options).  You aren't able to give him any real personality, because you can't have him acting too far out of line with what the player intends.  This makes attempting to roleplay in Mass Effect ultimately unsatisfying.  Shepard is never your character, never the person you want him to be, but instead the character that the writers, voice director, and animators decided to make him.

[Booglarize]

Vaeliorin wrote...

The problem here is that given that the Grey Warden isn't voice-acted, his emotional state is entirely under the player's control.  But with Shepard, given that he's voice-acted and given actions outside of the player's control, it's up to the voice actors/writers/scripters to provide the emotions of the character.  The Grey Warden can be upset, happy, sad, teary, or any other emotion the player wants as he delivers his lines, but Shepard is, with rare exception, always on a fairly even keel.

Honestly, this is one of the major problems with having a voiced protagonist in a supposed RPG (particularly when you're limited to 3 dialogue options).  You aren't able to give him any real personality, because you can't have him acting too far out of line with what the player intends.  This makes attempting to roleplay in Mass Effect ultimately unsatisfying.  Shepard is never your character, never the person you want him to be, but instead the character that the writers, voice director, and animators decided to make him.

I agree with this. I think that this middle ground we see in the game between having a character that's simultaneously fully voice-acted while having his actions supposedly controlled by the player doesn't quite hit the mark. Compare this to, say, a more text-based game like Planescape: Torment which, despite not letting you pick the character's name or appearance, nonetheless did a better job of making it seem like "your" character because of the depth of options you got from dialogues.

I think there's definitely an argument to be made in favour of just having a silent protagonist (from the voice-acting perspective at least) as a way of providing more depth while still giving the player choice in terms of how they want the character to develop. 

[Isaantia]

I agree with the OP. Shepard is tough-as-nails, but that doesn't mean Shepard feels no pain. There were some key events that could have been fleshed out a bit more in terms of emotional response.

First - the revelation Cerberus resurrescted you. Depending on your background, this could have make you various levels of angry. There should have been more dialogue around this.

Second - meeting Garrus. Tali - they seem to not really concern themselves that you were brought back from the dead. Why don't you get to talk about this with them.  Oh right - calibrations & engine maintenance.  *facepalm*

Third - meeting your former LI on Horizon - really? you have no one to talk to about this? you have 1 line to kelly and joker about it and thats it. you can't reply to the email. If you're now romancing Garrus/Tali .. they don't even ask about your feeling about your former LI. You'd think they'd want to know that you've ended your relationship with them. I guess they'll be surprised in ME3.

Fourth - Liara - when she finally explains what she did, you have 2 options. Be happy or be mad.

The only time I felt like someone acknowldged the fact I was actually dead and cared about what I went through was when I spoke to Wrex on Tuchanka. See, you can be tough but still show emotion and concern. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Blackveldt]

Marstead wrote...

I actually like this aspect of his character. It reminds me of Sherlock Holmes, in a bizarre way. Sherlock is bordering on supernaturally adept at the use of observation, logic, & reason. Everything he says is believable based on the information given him, but he is the peak of human mental performance.

For Shepard, his ability to shrug off trauma borders on the supernatural. He's a stone statue, and by the second game, quite literally a robot. He can absorb any punishment and be the same person.

In our modern desert of moody, psychologically damaged protagonists, it's refreshing to have a character who is incredibly balanced and well-adjusted.

Actually, the ability to shrug off traumatic events means you are not well-adjusted; it is called 'minimizing.'  Like if you put your hand on a hot stove.  A normal person feels this and jerks back.  A minimizer is the person that places their hand on the hot stove every day to the point where the feeling is numbed and he/she is desensitized to the pain.

However, I do agree that a lot of entertainment today seems to center around psychologically-damaged protagonists.  As someone previously mentioned, moments like the locker-break-down incident in ME1 was perfect.  Hey--Shepard IS a person.  It was such a great and memorable moment; it's too bad we didn't really get that in ME2.

[SLPr0]

Vaeliorin wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

Spectre 117 wrote...
[*]If you think shepard isnt an interesting character as the protagonist then you my friend have not played dragon age.......XD

Oh I agree hes a got more depth than the Grey Warden but the Grey Warden wasn't voiced at all, so comparatively to the Grey Warden's companions the Grey Warden is like furniture thats just around to set off conversation sequences. So yes John Shepard > Grey Warden in regards to character depth, but thats not saying much.

The problem here is that given that the Grey Warden isn't voice-acted, his emotional state is entirely under the player's control.  But with Shepard, given that he's voice-acted and given actions outside of the player's control, it's up to the voice actors/writers/scripters to provide the emotions of the character.  The Grey Warden can be upset, happy, sad, teary, or any other emotion the player wants as he delivers his lines, but Shepard is, with rare exception, always on a fairly even keel.

Honestly, this is one of the major problems with having a voiced protagonist in a supposed RPG (particularly when you're limited to 3 dialogue options).  You aren't able to give him any real personality, because you can't have him acting too far out of line with what the player intends.  This makes attempting to roleplay in Mass Effect ultimately unsatisfying.  Shepard is never your character, never the person you want him to be, but instead the character that the writers, voice director, and animators decided to make him.

This is a fairly accurate assessment as well, its not that John Shepard sucks its just that you as a player have a limited control of expression and the emotional range for the Shepard writing and VO never really varies more than about five degrees to the left or right of "absolutely balanced".

Even in Shepards most extreme Renegade responses, I would still say you've never listed more than about 5 degrees to the side of absolutely balanced.

And in my opinion given human psychology, psychological traumas and stressors, physiological stresses and trauma....Commander Shepard should never, even as a total Paragon, be straight down the middle of the meter with the needle ticking variably to one side or the other within 5 degrees of perfectly balanced.

I'd like to see basically, wider swings on the meter, especially with Renegade and Paragon decisions, I'm not saying John Shepard needs to break down and become a homicidal maniac (though depending on how some have played him, he could definitely be accused of such) I would just expect, with everything hes been through, more than a 5 degree shift in reactivity one way or another.

Let me provide a visual example:


This is basically an example of differing fictional characters and their various emotional ranges. What I'm trying to demonstrate here is that even with the Paragon or Renegade choices Shepard can make, his absolute variance in emotional range never variates more than a few degrees characteristically.

I would expect someone of Shepard's background and development to be able to swing further to the left and right depending on OUR choices, as players, and how WE react AS Shepard to what we've done, where we've been, the battles we've fought and the betrayals we've faced or perpetrated ourselves.

[Hellebore5000]

Shep just seems like a good soldier with a an above average emotional processing ability. Just because we don't see the character dealing with things doesn't mean they aren't happening. There are alot of days we don't see during load screens, traveling across the galaxy. Shep could be up in her loft pounding down the whiskey for all we know.



Alot of guys in my Husband's past units have been through alot comparable to Shep, well maybe not the resurrection part, and they are still squared away in the head. I find it refreshing to see a mentally healthy character for once, there is way too much focus on mentally unhealthy people in various media lately.

[Pauravi]

I agree with wanting to have a little bit more dialogue about how Shepard feels about everything that goes on. Perhaps Kelly could tie into this, considering that she is the ship's counselor, and also Shepard's LI. Maybe there could be a few major missions throughout the game that triggers an extra conversation that pops up with whoever the LI is, and Shepard can confide in them.
Frankly, though, I'm getting kind of sick of all the Meer bashing. Honestly it seems to me like something that people parrot just because it is a popular thing to say. I've played both as Fem and Male in both games, and there are several lines just in the Lazarus Facility that I think Mark Meer does a better job of delivering with real emotion. I'm not bashing on Hale, either, because I think she does a great job too. The point is that they both have their strengths, and they both have lines that they deliver well and deliver poorly. I personally think that Mark Meer does a great job of voicing Shepard, and I am happy with his performance.

Modifié par Pauravi, 08 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[Crowwalker100]

Ya know, it the player charecter is boring, thats not Bioware's fault, you are the one with the imagination.. So the ball is in you court..

[Pauravi]

Vaeliorin wrote...

This makes attempting to roleplay in Mass Effect ultimately unsatisfying.  Shepard is never your character, never the person you want him to be, but instead the character that the writers, voice director, and animators decided to make him.

The thing is, it really isn't any better without voice acting.  Quite frankly, having the voice there conveying some emotion, even if you don't think it is an appropriate amount, I feel is usually going to convey more emotion than simply having a dialogue option and no voice at all.  Even the player themselves is obviously never going to be feeling an amount of emotion consummate with what a real person would feel if they went through what Shepard did.  I think people are expecting far too much of a video game.

Even though the ideal of an RPG is to make you feel like you are the protagonist, and that you can do whatever you want, such a thing is never going to happen.  There are always limits on the sorts of actions you can take, the sorts of dialogues you can have (voiced or not), and the sort of reactions that other people will have to them.  It is still a game.  Since you can never have a system that gives everyone the option to behave, or to convey as much emotion (or not) as they wish, I feel like it is perfectly acceptable to apply a level of emotional delivery to whatever options they do give you.

Yes, you're right, Shepard is not entirely your character, but he wouldn't be even without voice acting.  At least with a voice to go along with him he seems like more of a real person.  Quite frankly I never had any particular feeling at all about my Dragon Age character, partly because he has no voice.  I cared about the other characters, sure, but not about my protagonist really.  Shepard is different in that way.  Because he conveys emotions and speaks dialogues that are somewhat separate from me, I feel like he is more a real person, even if he is someone that I only partially control.  And because I control him, Shepard is generally someone that I like, and that I empathize with.  This is just as satisfying an RP experience as plucking strings of text from a box, IMO.

Modifié par Pauravi, 08 mars 2010 - 05:49 .

[MarginalBeast]

The player decides who Shepard is (for the most part. You can't make Shepard evil, for example, but largely his/her behavior, thoughts, and personality are decided by the player). If you want your Shepard to be affected by the stuff that has happened to him/her, then RP Shepard that way. You won't be able to fully incorporate it into the game, but at least it's something.

I have 4 Shepards. All of them are completely different people because of the way I shape them in my head, even though they all have the exact same dialogue options. Sometimes you just have to use your imagination.

I had hoped that Shepard would have been a little more visibly affected by the revelation that he/she died and was resurrected, but oh well. I just assumed that he/she reacted properly when no one was looking.

Modifié par MarginalBeast, 08 mars 2010 - 05:48 .

[WrexShepard]

One thing you must also remember is that Shepard is a bit of a blank slate. He doesn't show that much emotion or reflection because it's up to you to feel those things yourself. Given the amount of choices you can make and the myriad ways you can feel about said choices afterwards, it would be impossible to bioware to script the full ramifications of how your experiences affect your future reactions.

An example would be saving the sick batarian on omega- you could feel a bunch of ways about that if you had, say, the colonist background, where batarians killed your parents. You could regret saving him when you realized he knew nothin, you could find a sort of redemption in it, showing you have the power to forgive, and all sorts of other feelings on it.

You do see this in some instances, like how you can apologize to mouse after threatening him in thane's mission.

I do agree that the backgrounds from the first game need to pop up more- they were seldom talked about in the second game.

[Ski Mask Wei]

While it would be realistic for Shepard to be affected by soul crushing events and problems Bioware has to tone that stuff down so people can try to role play. Folks on these boards hate Jacob because Femshep gives the impression of flirting with him in ONE line that they can't control. Imagine the ****storm behind some unavoidable PTSD.



Just the formula Bioware uses for RPGs almost insures that the main character will never have as much "character" as they could.

[Akrylik]

Ah, yes. Shepard. The legendary human commander allegedly provided with little to no characterization. We have dismissed that claim.

for TLDR people: I think Commander Shepard is a pretty cool guy, eh has protagonisms and doesn't afraid of indifference.

For people who actually care to read an argument on the subject:I honestly don't mind how Shepard is a bland or indifferent individual, even so with Meer's voice acting (that suits the role perfectly), he makes a perfect avatar for the player. How so? Well lets start at the introduction scenario; When ANY protagonist is introduced in almost all RPGs that are the first installment in a series, he/she is, more often than not, of a typically low or stripped status among major characters and group of the plot setting. The ME series doesn't follow this consistency, where instead you are already in a position of high command, shortly afterwords achieving an even higher, highest actually, position a protagonist could usefully obtain (in this case, the ability to do anything with a blank check). Such positions aren't handed out to anybody, therefore Shepard must be an extraordinary individual, with an extraordinary background, to even be eligible for such a rank. So why wouldn't Bio give Shepard a remarkable personality, because in order to generate the "role playing" effect, the knowledges and experiences of the protagonist in an RPG should be as "in sync" with those of the player as much as possible. If Shepard were to have any sort of history that the player has not experienced, it would be alienating to have it reoccur constantly and/or significantly throughout the story. So whats the best way to get rid of this issue? Make Shepard indifference of course! This provides us the issue of having Shepard be a boring unexpressive individual, at least for such a dialogue oriented game like mass effect, though I myself would still prefer this to emotional breakdowns over subjects I, as the player, can't even recall by name.

In other words; Shepard is only dull because the game was made to not to cause trait differences between him/her and the player. playing any RPG should be a present, action based experience, getting "receive and react" options is all one should need in order to play the game, having the game guess on Shepard's specific personality according to yours is realistically too much to ask for.

[klix333]

Maybe Shepard is just a psychopath and has no actual emotion.

[Killer Instinct]

I agree. It would have been more engrossing during the final mission, that as you lost more and more squad mates, Shephard grew more visibly agitated/upset. Not 'crying' but visibly more so urgent. When a team mate died for the most I did get the feeling he was moved somewhat emotionally by it, but not to a level of where I would have liked it. He was more so, 'There goes another one' than 'We've got to end this.' His dialouge however, during the pep talks, was OK. You can't satisfy everyone, though. As great as ME2 was, a bit more emotion from CS would have made it that much better.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Losing team mates didn't really bother me. I mean you're in the middle of a firefight - you check for vitals, move on, and grieve later.

Although if they wanted to go down that route, paragon and renegade interrupts that simply gave you a small expression about how you feel probably would've been very effective. Still, not something I missed (largely coz I hate losing people, makes me feel bad).

[Killer Instinct]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Losing team mates didn't really bother me. I mean you're in the middle of a firefight - you check for vitals, move on, and grieve later.
Although if they wanted to go down that route, paragon and renegade interrupts that simply gave you a small expression about how you feel probably would've been very effective. Still, not something I missed (largely coz I hate losing people, makes me feel bad).

True. But given the (assumption) you took the time to get to know some of these characters, I'd have liked to see more emotion when someone went down. If only for certain ones like Garrus. But again, I see why some wouldn't like that. It's never a good thing for the game to ASSUME your character cares,  but the Ren/Par Interrupts would have been a welcolme addition.

[Memset]

Shepard is more like an old war commander. The kind of man who is all but gone from modern society; from a time where putting duty first was not a psychological malady, but a hallmark of exemplary leadership. True enough, OP, such individuals are exceedingly rare. But I'd wager there'd be no one better equipped for this epic mission than such men, and I for one enjoy having this kind of character as the PC.

[SLPr0]

I think the fact that Shepard never actively grieves is the problem in and of itself. His convinction in regards to the loss of a squad mate is demonstrated as the same convinction of belief he has in the choice of the decision to sacrifice Kaiden or Ashley at Virmire.

The mission takes all priority, and Shepard himself loses depth because of it.

What I was thinking would be a good way to facilitate these more reactive emotional states would to basically expand the Renegade/Paragon action scenes in ME3 giving options for Ultra Renegade or Ultra Paragon interactions expanded beyond the normal Renegade or Paragon interaction....allowing for a broader range of emotional states to be displayed.

This is somewhat already there in the Paragon/Renegade interactions interface, depending on how high your score is on either side you tend to react to situations somewhat differently, but its still, in all truth, a variance of 5 degrees to the left or right.

And I don't agree that Shepard is a psychopath, though given his Renegade path he could definitely be seen as sociopathic.

[taigin]

The problem as I see it is that Mass Effect is a rpg. As such people will roleplay their Shepard in different ways which makes it difficult to give him/her specific emotional reactions or stances without being immersive breaking for some. As some have pointed out you have to thread very careful because of that and construct situations where Shepards reaction can be interpret in different ways (grounding at Citadel: angry, dissapointed, sad etcetc). Otherwise you'll end up with situations where many players are put off by the way their Shepard behaves (FemSheps disposition when talking to Jacob comes to mind). I do agree however that it would be nice to express more feelings in the game and in many situations where Shepard behaves very indifferent it would have been nice with another option (questions Cerberus for real about Akuze, get the option to actually say something smart to Ash/Kaidan etc). We are suppost to play "our Shepard" but because how Shepard behaves and reacts (and more specific doesn't) it puts a distance to my character which i usually don't feel in rpgs.

[Riot Inducer]

I agree with the OP, there are some things Shepard should just feel some more emotion about one way or another, dealing with being dead/working with cerberus and most importantly dealing with LIs.



The Horizon/Liara "reunions" were annoying in that Shepard can't seem to show any emotion over being reunited with his/her romantic interest. I mean come on people there's being able to deal with tough situations and trauma and then there's being downright cold, you can't use the same even logic and bravado approach you use in a combat situation that you do when being reunited with a lover. I mean romantic involvement IS emotion, Shepard really failed to deliver something meaningful with what *should* have had some impact on him/her.

[Frotality]

i can understand having to keep shep at a general level for role-playing purposes, but i, like others im sure, would much rather have a more EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING character than having to pretend our shepard isnt an emotionally-dead shell of a man just for the sake of whoever actually wants to have said shell-shepard.

shepard, by virtue of the limitations of cinematic appeal and budgets, already has alot of set character traits that we cant just imagine into or out of existence. instead of building around around that with character developments throughout the plot, bioware just let "determined and strong-willed"  surmise his character forever, for every player. this is the opposite of what you would want to effectively immerse players in the role. in their overzealous attempt to make shepard an accessible role, theyve made him so accessible as to be worthless and uninteresting to any individual person; like people have noted, a master chief-esque boring ole' cliche meant to catch the short attention span of the lowest common denominator completely at the expense of any actual character depth, and the worst offense about the whole ordeal is that there isnt even any actual variation in this clean-slate of a character to excuse it. few choices or dialogue are ever more than arbitrary 'jackass/ niceguy' decisions.
 
as that wonderful little meter a few posts up shows, shepard never ever deviates from the base character traits enough to fufill the purpose of having such a vague character (the purpose of allowing a wide range of roles). so why even have it? there is a line between " unbelieveably unfeeling super soldier" and " emo crybaby JRPG character" that bioware has to find with regard to shepard's development...they have all the pieces for the necessary variations of character, theyve just yet to do anything with it.