158 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

It's not really Meer's fault. There's some EA focus group that's like 'keep the protagonist as bland as possible so that nobody will feel alienated.' I disagree, and I wish Bioware would take a gamble and go ahead and allow Shep to be characterized a bit. Yeah, it might alienate some people, but it could also be a really good gaming experience.

[Xandurpein]

Terraneaux wrote...

It's not really Meer's fault. There's some EA focus group that's like 'keep the protagonist as bland as possible so that nobody will feel alienated.' I disagree, and I wish Bioware would take a gamble and go ahead and allow Shep to be characterized a bit. Yeah, it might alienate some people, but it could also be a really good gaming experience.

I have to disagree with you there. Bioware have always strived to stress the Roleplaying aspect of their games. You, the player, assume the role of the protagonist. The aim since Baldur's Gate have been to recreate a PnP roleplaying experience on the computer. This of course involves a lot of illussions, as the game is programmed and you can only choose between preset responses to any situation, but the aim is to let the player express themselves the way they want, as much as possible.

I have some experience in writing conversation trees for various mods, and in my experience seemingly 'bland' responses for the player almost always works best. It's psychology. If you get immersed in the game and identifiy with your character, it's much easier to choose a short bland answer and mentally add in what's missing from what 'your' Shepard would have done, than to hear a more elaborate response with a tone or phrase that don't feel right to you.

If the game contained more development of Shepards character, it would do so at the expense of delegating the player from participant in the story to spectator. It would hurt the immersion factor, at least to me. This is also why I think Meers voice works quite well. It's a voice that doesn't really stand out and is easy to accept as yours.

[Wynne]

Vanaer wrote...

In ME1 there was even more emotion. Think the moment you get grounded and your LI patches you up mentally. Those kinds of moments should be added more.

I totally agree... I think Mark Meer did better this time around, but that the writing should've included more of those compelling little scenes, and that Meer and Hale should've been pushed more in key scenes. It's not that the VO wasn't good, just that at certain points more emotion was needed to connect the player to the character as fully as you'd want. It was set up perfectly and then didn't quite go far enough.

We already know the writers can do those moments. There are some in ME2, but not enough. Mostly just the end scene of the romance, if you romanced Jack, Thane, or one of your ME1 companions. And when those moments happened... they were great, but didn't feel long enough to me.

Kinda makes me wish that Kelly actually sat down with you and had a few real, probing talks. Would've given her a bit of extra flesh as a character, not to mention winning more sympathy with the player and showing Shepard's emotional stress and how (s)he copes with it.

Modifié par Wynne, 08 mars 2010 - 10:05 .

[Collider]

Besides a few lines that may have just been suffering from poor writing, Meer did an excellent job.
also, related poll
social.bioware.com/892908/polls/2874/

[Collider]

Wynne wrote...
I totally agree... I think Mark Meer did better this time around, but that the writing should've included more of those compelling little scenes, and that Meer and Hale should've been pushed more in key scenes.

It's probably largely due to the fact that it was near the end of the game, but I found Shepard's speech about the suicide mission in the normandy and in the collector base rather affecting.

[WarChicken78]

Would you prefer to play a character that has serious mental scars and compensates in a way that you might not like?
Imagine Shepard getting schizophrenic seeing and hearing things and persons, that are not actually there.
Or developing a split personality that makes you unable to decide and just picks paragon or renegade options depending on what personality has the upper hand at that time.

No, I really prefer that mentally unharmed HERO I play at present.

Modifié par WarChicken78, 08 mars 2010 - 10:16 .

[FlintlockJazz]

If Shepard lacks personality thats because the player playing him is lacking it, so its your own fault.



I can be a total **** sometimes...

[Gill Kaiser]

To the OP: You did not just use "non-plussed" to mean "unaffected", did you? If you did, I'll have to murder you repeatedly.

[Chuvvy]

Collider wrote...

Besides a few lines that may have just been suffering from poor writing, Meer did an excellent job.
also, related poll
social.bioware.com/892908/polls/2874/

Deffinately better than he did in ME1.

[Lucy Glitter]

Just once i'd love to have a companion ask OUR SHEPARD a question about how they are.

Just bloody once.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 08 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[Wynne]

Spectre 117 wrote...
If you think shepard isnt an interesting character as the protagonist then you my friend have not played dragonage.......XD

*lmao* Okay, yeah... you make a really good point there. Complaining about Commander Shepard in comparison with complaining about the DA protagonist is a bit ridiculous. Shepard at least has a voice actor, facial animations, bodily animations, cinematic camera angles, and near-constant good writing for the lines. The DA protagonist, not so much. On any of those counts. There are very few satisfying lines in DA. Everyone is MUCH more interesting than the protagonist, and you thought that Origins were the central premise, which makes it all the more ironic. I kinda hope DA2 takes more of a cue from ME2 and at least gives the Warden from that game interesting writing and some more expressive animations. Honestly, I prefer real character to an illusion of character any day, particularly when there are options for how positively to respond. I care more about connecting to the main character than having 6-8 limited, generic choices. I'd rather have 3-4 choices; like a funny wisecrack line, a dry sarcasm line, a compassionate line, and a manipulative line. So in that respect, the ME series comes out waaay better.

But ME2 really started off with such a bang that I wanted more. The impact doesn't really happen unless there's a ripple effect... unless the main character has scars.

Collider wrote...

It's probably largely due to the fact that it was near the end of the game, but I found Shepard's speech about the suicide mission in the normandy and in the collector base rather affecting.

I totally agree, actually. Those were some of the best. But there were other, smaller scenes which were also critical in their way where I remember thinking, "why isn't there something more here?"

As to your poll...
Yes, I want squad mates to listen to me for a change.13%(35 votes)
Yes, it would improve romance dialogue.21%(55 votes)
Yes, I want to roleplay and give more character to my Shepard.39%(103 votes)
Yes, I want to hear what the squad mates have to say about Shepard's words.17%(44 votes)Yes, for another reason that I will post as a comment to this poll. 1%(3 votes)

So far 91% of us seem to think squadmates should ask more about Shepard! I mean, honestly, that might have been sufficient by itself, if they did it right. If they let you talk about dying and all that you went through in the first game. Would've been good for new players to know that stuff, too.

WarChicken78 wrote...

Would you prefer to play a character that has serious mental scars and compensates in a way that you might not like? Imagine Shepard getting schizophrenic seeing and hearing things and persons, that are not actually there.
Or developing a split personality that makes you unable to decide and just picks paragon or renegade options depending on what personality has the upper hand at that time.

No, I really prefer that mentally unharmed HERO I play at present.

Oh, come on. They never had to make Shepard go crazy. It's not like the choice is "no reaction" vs. "insanity."

What Shepard should have done was show some more emotional vulnerability. Talk it out with someone. Be able to talk about SHEPARD'S issues rather than playing therapist for everybody else (isn't that Kelly's job?) or simply having a booty call. Shepard's issues are bigger and more stressful than anybody else's. Only Jack's and Thane's come close. Shepard NEEDS an outlet, like the one in the first game where Ash or Kaidan comes and talks to you after the Normandy's grounded, or the talk after you get put in the Med Bay, or the moment of wonder you have on the Citadel. There isn't enough of that sort of thing in ME2.

If you don't express your emotions, you tend to explode from the strain, sooner or later. I wouldn't be worried about Shepard's emotional health if (s)he DID have a small identity crisis and talk to somebody about it. If the pressure DID get to Shepard and resulted in a conversation or two with Kelly and/or Joker and/or your ME1 companions. Or maybe with Ash/Kaidan.

Believe me, I've known soldiers. Though it's in character to suppress emotion it's also a sure path to psychological instability. If Shepard is different, it should be because (s)he has an outlet, particularly if you're a Colonist/Sole Survivor. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

Hell, they could've at least given Shepard one or two nightmare scenes where the Collectors' destruction of the original Normandy and his/her own suffocation comes back to haunt his/her mind. That would've made your eventual confrontation with them more dramatic/rewarding anyway.

Modifié par Wynne, 08 mars 2010 - 10:48 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Just once i'd love to have a companion ask OUR SHEPARD a question about how they are.

Just bloody once.

Liara does in ME1 actually. It would be nice to see it happen more often in ME3 though - at least once I'd like to get some options to give Shepard's opinion on what he thinks about killing so many people i.e. "Do you ever feel bad about what we do?"

[superimposed]

Shepard doesn't need 'character', he needs background, needs you as the player to explore his past, and his history, and decide how that has shaped him



But when you've only got two choices at any given moment it's hard to do that.

[Collider]

Wynne wrote...

 I mean, honestly, that might have been sufficient by itself, if they did it right. If they let you talk about dying and all that you went through in the first game. Would've been good for new players to know that stuff, too.

Yea. You appear to be able to tell Jacob how you're feeling during his romance when he asks you. They could do something like that with normal conversations in addition to other romances. I'm not sure if something similar is in the garrus and thane romances.

[GodWood]

jbadm04 wrote...

anyone noticed? in ME1 the characters, especialy Shepard, have way more and better face-expressions then in ME2

I thought the absolute opposite, I remember thinking while playing "wow my Shepard smiled without looking like a creepy paedophile"

[smudboy]

SLPr0 wrote...

I completely agree with OP.

Shepard is a flat and static character.  The fact that the protagonist doesn't have a character arc in ME2 is insane.  He's/She's essentially a Space Jesus with the greatest military career ever.

We understand he/she has to have a certain level of staticness due to being the main player character.  But what about, I don't know, PTSD from losing the Normandy and being reborn?

If BioWare can write 11 OTHER stories about other characters that are merely along for the ride, surely they can spend one or two little scenes describing some of Shepard's potentially many feelings about his/her past and motivations (like the ones you've chosen in your backstory.)  They at least had one or two missions on this in ME1 that Shepard could've dealt with.  Ditto with the LI's, aside from "you helped me with x, therefore I'm attracted to you."

(And especially Shepard's reasoning why he/she likes a certain someone.  Not just "because" you selected the choice to.)

[bjdbwea]

I completely agree. If some players want their Shepard to be a robot without any emotions, the game should certainly offer that possibility. But it should also allow players who want to give their Shepard some personality to express that. We can at least choose between "good" and "bad" solutions, but that's just not enough. There are some scenes, like the one with Chakwas, where Shepard can act like a human being. But it's still too little.

And I completely agree with what someone said: In ME 1 you had that very beautiful with the LI picking Shepard up after the council betrayed him. In ME 2, scenes like that are simply missing. Worse, you can't say ANYTHING to your ME 1 LIs. That's already crossed the border to just being artificial and unrealistic.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Tinnic]

SLPr0 wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

While post-traumatic stress syndrome is pretty prevalent among military men and women, not everybody suffers from it. Some people simply able to compartmentalise trauma better then others. Shepard may well be on the autism spectrum and as such systemizes emotions more so then others. I also think it is a bit cliche that all heros with trauma in their past has to be tortured. Some people go through a lot of pain in their life but don't necessarily fall apart over it.

In addition, we have only seen Shepard in the midst of emergency. Often, in these situations, the emotional analysis is differed. Perhaps when all this is over and Shepard gets a chance to sit down and think, then, maybe she'll show the emotion she isn't right now.

I don't think it makes Shepard less interesting. I just think its what stands Shepard out of the pack. I mean, Heros are not normal people. Why would they react like normal people?

Your psychological analysis isn't off, I agree, given my own experiences in combat that when you are in the middle of life threatening situations it is nearly second nature for most competent soldiers to defer emotional reactivity in favor of straight logical threat analysis. This is normal. But I've seen guys drop their ****...sorry to use the word but thats what its reffered to as.

Not everyone is made of the kind of stuff that it takes to defer their fears in an emergency. John Shepard is obviously a pinnacle of soldiery, and I'm not asking him to fall apart....I'm just asking him to actually realize the things that have occured to him. He's not just comparmentalizing emotions in emergencies hes got his entire personality locked behind doors in his brain and its all go, no quit, lets save the universe marine!

Hard to visualize a person like this, in reality, I've never met one.

I think what you are saying is that Shepard needs a best friend. Someone to just talk to and unload. Which I think might be a problem. Who does Shepard really have with whom she can confide? Shepard is default problem solver for even stranger on the street. While on her way to recruit one of the fabled Asari Justicar's, she stops to help an Asari merchant with her Krogan boyfriend. Most of her crew is full of people who need support. So it's not just a matter of Shepard showing emotions, there has to be an oppartunity for it. I don't think Shepard was really presented with such during the course of the game.  

So really, unless  Bioware gives Shepard a "best bro" or a "best girlfriend" with whom she can "have a moment", showing emotions is going to be tough. Unless of course Bioware implements my Teddy Bear idea. Then Shepard can talk to her teddy and air out load all the stress he/she's been under.

[screwoffreg]

At the end of the game you find out Shepard is on anti-depressants. The harsh truth...

[Isaantia]

This is the irony of Shepard's lack of emotion in game. S/he is fighting to save humanity first and the galaxy second and is largely divorced from the thing that makes her/him the most human of all.



Like Wynne says, its not either/or. Emotional doesn't mean insane, but it does suggest a certain amount of self-awareness. For example, Legion's "no data available" when questioned about the armor conveys so much emotion and self-awareness. Shepard needs more of these moments, too.

[jklinders]

I'm not asking for Shepard to be a tortured EMO, or even like all the conflicted hugely flawed heroes of Micheal Moorcock's eternal champion series even.



Just a few more examples of genuine frustration, like at the locker in ME1. No one is a complete block of granite. but this is what I got from ME2. One other thing, the voice acting is fine from both Shep's, I prefer Meer to Hale but both do a good job. I hope the voice direction gets bit of a kick in the pants though.

[Reptilian Rob]

Haha, creative thread to say the least. Bravo.

[Vanaer]

jklinders wrote...
Just a few more examples of genuine frustration, like at the locker in ME1. No one is a complete block of granite. but this is what I got from ME2. One other thing, the voice acting is fine from both Shep's, I prefer Meer to Hale but both do a good job. I hope the voice direction gets bit of a kick in the pants though.

I agree to this.

Or just give us some more moments to reflect on things. Like after the Collector base, all your teammates give a comment on what you did, but never ever can you start a conversation about it. It's all personal background, which in some cases isn't that interesting. I want some reflection, say with a fellow officer - inter pares afterall - on the mission and the choices. This could also deepen the character and give more depth to your choices. This doesn't have to be a 'boohoo, I'm so sad now, please hug me' kind of conversation, but more one in which some deeper understanding of your character and choices can blossum.

Modifié par Vanaer, 08 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Your character development is your choice. if you approach the game in a mechanical fashion then you're going to make mechanical decisions. but if you really try to get in the head of your character and make decisions they would based on what's happened you'll find a more rewarding experience overall.