140 réponses à ce sujet

[Eurypterid]

traversc wrote...

That means that anything mod that makes the game easier is by definition a cheat. Respec, extra dog slot, advanced tactics, fast stealing. Since all of these mods give you a direct advantage in unlocking achievements, they are cheats. The argument that it doesn't affect anyone else is void since they were obviously meant to mean something and be displayed to other people.

None of that affects other players. Unlocking achievements or defeating that big bad ogre has no effect on other people, nor does it give any advantage to the player that does it over other players in their own games. Unlike in an MMO. So consider it cheating if you want to. I don't.

What people do in their own game is their own choice and their own business. It's fine to sit and point the finger at someone and say they're cheating in their own game. But I don't think it's right to say they should somehow be punished for doing so (as someone else mentioned, such as having their achievements locked etc.)

Bottom line is I use mods and don't consider it cheating. No one, IMO, has the right to tell me how to enjoy my single player experience (nor do I feel they have the right to point fingers and call me a cheater either). I bought the game to have fun and that's exactly what I'm doing. How I choose to have that fun is solely my business.

[k9medusa]

Here is a few ideas that I agree with:

1) Cheats are not bad in and of themselves

2) In a solo game, you can play anyway you want

3) Games are meant to be fun...

4) DAO is a 95% solo game, the rest of the 5% is the online profile aka muti-player

5) Any type of mod that affects the online profile is a cheat since one has put the time and work to earn it

6) Mods can and does add reply value to a game

7) DAO is not a pure single player game



People can mod their own game anyway and how often they want (that is their right), but only request that we have is that when you do that, please just state that we unlock such and such by a mod. In that way, we look at your online profile and compares to someone's else or our own, we can compare apples to apples. We don't care if one mod that game or not, as long that we know it is a mod or not. On the other hand, mod'ing is good, because it adds to repayable to a game and encourage people to add more content to the game. Is that want the project selection of the online profile is for, right?

[Eurypterid]

k9medusa wrote...

People can mod their own game anyway and how often they want (that is their right), but only request that we have is that when you do that, please just state that we unlock such and such by a mod. In that way, we look at your online profile and compares to someone's else or our own, we can compare apples to apples. We don't care if one mod that game or not, as long that we know it is a mod or not.

But why? I guess I just don't understand the issue here.

Why does it make a difference if you unlocked an achievement by playing the game 'pure' while another guy unlocked it using his modded game? What is there to compare other than the fact you have an achievment and the other guy has (or does not have) it too? There's no prize or contest or reward for it that would mean someone with a modded game has some kind of advantage.

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

From the above it appears we're all clamoring for unique and special playthroughs of the game. One thing that would definately be a plus would be to have specialized AI which would "learn" the human that plays their particular copy of the game. During game pauses and long waits, the AI would be working in the background to set up player-unique quests and interactions in the game based on the mpc's actions and dialogue responses. It would be fun to come back to the game after I've left it on for a while to find some fun stuff that the game came up with just for me. I think this will be the wave of the future for games, AI that "learns" instead of being limited to fixed programming and a hard set of rules. This is what frustrates me with games like this is that there aren't enough personal-unique moments in the game because you go out to forums like this and read about people having the exact same experiences. Real AI would ensure each playthrough of the game would be specific and taylor made to each person, and with plenty of special moments to share. The ability to capture instant replays of these special moments and battles would also be appreciated. I understand this would require a lot more system requirements (neural nets require a lot of throughput and space) so this not something we'll probably see in the very near future, but soon I hope. This is what multi-player games have over single-player games is their unpredictability. Real AI would bring this aspect to single player games.

[Fishy]

Sure my character use the Duncan armor .. But it's not really overpowered(Not more than the DLC commander set).



I also use Morehairstyle mod , Natural body , Redesign Dragon age mod , Item set for Morrigan and leliana(sacred ash) .. Also a mod that fixe a lot of game bug and dialogue , the vibrant eyes thing , More tint thing , More tatoo thing , Sacred Ash Warden face and also the new mod that redesign all the elve in the game(The elve in the vanilla version are plain bad sorry) and some new *cutscene* .Well actually the same cutscene but with new *view * ..(Nothing porno .. don't start to think thing)



THose mod add a lot for me. I don't use any god mode .. I also play on easy/normal and very rarely use the pause option and any tactic ( I beat the game twice on Hard with the vannila version)



It took me a lot of time to play with mod.I was hesaitant because i though it's would broke the lore and the atmosphere in the game.But after installing 1 (redesign dragon age) . I almost fell of my chair..It's just so much better and actually closer to the concept art.

[Curlain]

k9medusa wrote...

Here is a few ideas that I agree with:
1) Cheats are not bad in and of themselves
2) In a solo game, you can play anyway you want
3) Games are meant to be fun...
4) DAO is a 95% solo game, the rest of the 5% is the online profile aka muti-player
5) Any type of mod that affects the online profile is a cheat since one has put the time and work to earn it
6) Mods can and does add reply value to a game
7) DAO is not a pure single player game

People can mod their own game anyway and how often they want (that is their right), but only request that we have is that when you do that, please just state that we unlock such and such by a mod. In that way, we look at your online profile and compares to someone's else or our own, we can compare apples to apples. We don't care if one mod that game or not, as long that we know it is a mod or not. On the other hand, mod'ing is good, because it adds to repayable to a game and encourage people to add more content to the game. Is that want the project selection of the online profile is for, right?

Honestly then take the achievements, I never really thought anyone really cared about them until this thread.  DA would be the first game SP game I've played that had them in, don't really see the point in them *shrugs shoulders* and always found it slightly irritating when they popped up ingame.

So I'm completely fine with 'no achievements' with mods, I'll keep the mods that I think enhance the gameplay and story experience for me and have the pure SP game experience (which apart from the achievement thing it is anyway, and that in itself is purely personal unless you want to make it a competition, which I don't really understand either, but never mind) and you have the achievement scoreboard thing and we can all be happy playing DA as well like again 

Modifié par Curlain, 08 mars 2010 - 07:02 .

[thegreateski]

Uhhh . . . how can you cheat in a single player game?

[Jax Sparrow]

I want a cheat that gives me Duncan's beard...

[Sloth Of Doom]

thegreateski wrote...

Uhhh . . . how can you cheat in a single player game?

How can you cheat at solitaire?

[Pen Dragon]

k9medusa wrote...

Here is a few ideas that I agree with:
1) Cheats are not bad in and of themselves
2) In a solo game, you can play anyway you want
3) Games are meant to be fun...
4) DAO is a 95% solo game, the rest of the 5% is the online profile aka muti-player
5) Any type of mod that affects the online profile is a cheat since one has put the time and work to earn it
6) Mods can and does add reply value to a game
7) DAO is not a pure single player game

People can mod their own game anyway and how often they want (that is their right), but only request that we have is that when you do that, please just state that we unlock such and such by a mod. In that way, we look at your online profile and compares to someone's else or our own, we can compare apples to apples. We don't care if one mod that game or not, as long that we know it is a mod or not. On the other hand, mod'ing is good, because it adds to repayable to a game and encourage people to add more content to the game. Is that want the project selection of the online profile is for, right?

I agree with you 100%.

Modifié par Pen Dragon, 08 mars 2010 - 07:56 .

[CybAnt1]

Again, there are things that make me scratch my head.



I once had somebody tell me that it was cheating to type "addgold 50" into the console, but NOT cheating to do it by using some bizarre sell-the-same-item-over-and-over-again exploit, to get 50 extra gold he shouldn't have. WHAT IS THE FRIGGING DIFFERENCE? If you're going to get unearned gold, then frack man, do it the easy way, don't use some bizarre cheese that simply results from some aspect of the game not error-trapping for douchebaggery?



As far as the mods, again ignoring the stuff that's cosmetic but focusing on the ones that modify gameplay, well, yes, the bottom line is there are some mods that make the game easier, some that make it harder, and some that are a wash (like Better Archery). WHO GIVES?



Some people play with the Prima Guide to help them on their first playthrough (yes, that would be me), (or use other walkthroughs), some people don't. Should we have a Bioware employee scout their house to make sure they didn't use the guide? After all the guide is giving them an advantage over other players.



Hell, I think the guy who earned the "killed 100 darkspawn" achievement on Easy doesn't DESERVE it as much as my neighbor, who did the same thing with the game set to Nightmare. Does that mean his icon should be twice as large?



This is why, in the end, I think the argument is somewhat ridiculous; but since I don't really give a flying frig about the Achievements, put a scarlet "C" on my page, or do whatever you want. I do use mods. Some make the game easier. I don't always do it EXPLICITLY for that purpose, but they do, anyway. And yes I'll use the console. If it's there, I'll use it. And as I said, when somebody comes up with a savegame/char editor (that is a bit easier to use then the Toolset, I know the Toolset can edit savegames but sometimes it feels like I'm staring at a mainframe dump when I look at it) yes I will use that too, hell I'm waiting for one.

[traversc]

Eurypterid wrote...

None of that affects other players. Unlocking achievements or defeating that big bad ogre has no effect on other people, nor does it give any advantage to the player that does it over other players in their own games. Unlike in an MMO. So consider it cheating if you want to. I don't.

What people do in their own game is their own choice and their own business. It's fine to sit and point the finger at someone and say they're cheating in their own game. But I don't think it's right to say they should somehow be punished for doing so (as someone else mentioned, such as having their achievements locked etc.)

Bottom line is I use mods and don't consider it cheating. No one, IMO, has the right to tell me how to enjoy my single player experience (nor do I feel they have the right to point fingers and call me a cheater either). I bought the game to have fun and that's exactly what I'm doing. How I choose to have that fun is solely my business.

We don't disagree as much as you think we do. 

"No one, IMO, has the right to tell me how to enjoy my single player experience.... I bought the game to have fun and that's exactly what I'm doing. How I choose to have that fun is solely my business.

Exactly right.  No one here disagrees.  But...

or feel they have the right to point fingers and call me a cheater either

Is simply false.  The thing that seems to irk you is that the term "cheater" has such nasty connotations.  But really, if you think about it, those connotations really only apply in multiplayer, where you gain advantages over others.  In single player, it is simply a factual, objective statement: a cheater is one who uses cheats; it has no intrinsic moral weight.  I myself am a cheater, since I use respec and no recharge stealing. 

As for online achievements, you ARE gaining an advantage over other players, and thus in context,us cheaters do not necessarily deserve the same commendations as those who played without the advantages we use. 

Basically, my position is what k9medusa said.  That's the most sensible position to take and I don't see how anyone could disagree. 

But why? I guess I just don't understand the issue here.  Why does it
make a difference if you unlocked an achievement by playing the game
'pure' while another guy unlocked it using his modded game? What is
there to compare other than the fact you have an achievment and the
other guy has (or does not have) it too? There's no prize or contest or
reward for it that would mean someone with a modded game has some kind
of advantage.

It doesn't really matter why.  I myself, don't really understand it or necessarily care, but the fact is, a lot of people DO care.  And who are you to judge them?  Actually, literally ALL multiplayer games incorporate the "achievement" concept in some form or another, be it gamer points, achievments points, ladder, rank etc.  So it really isn't such a foreign concept. 

Modifié par traversc, 08 mars 2010 - 09:30 .

[k9medusa]

traversc wrote...
~snip~ 

As for online achievements, you ARE gaining an advantage over other players, and thus in context,us cheaters do not necessarily deserve the same commendations as those who played without the advantages we use. 

~snip~

Indeed   Amen

[Sloth Of Doom]

I just want to be clear here that I don't give a crap abut achievements . Anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis knows that I consider achievements as one of the worst things to happen to gaming in the last decade. Since I don't care about achievements, I don't care about how people gain them.

I also don't care how people complete their own games. If you want 18 party members that shoot fireballs from their eyes while doing the Charleston it is of no concern to me (except, you know, I might want to see a video of it).

What bothers me is people that modify the game rules in such extreme ways and then claim it isn't cheating. Of -course- it is cheating. It doesn't make you a bad person or anything, but gong outside of the rules to give yourself an advantage is pretty much the universal definition of cheating so stop trying to deny it.

Also, I love how little this entire conversation has to do with the original post, since the conversation is interesting and the OP was....well...not.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 08 mars 2010 - 09:42 .

[ModerateOsprey]

AnnaBananaBamBamBoo wrote...

From the above it appears we're all clamoring for unique and special playthroughs of the game. One thing that would definately be a plus would be to have specialized AI which would "learn" the human that plays their particular copy of the game. During game pauses and long waits, the AI would be working in the background to set up player-unique quests and interactions in the game based on the mpc's actions and dialogue responses. It would be fun to come back to the game after I've left it on for a while to find some fun stuff that the game came up with just for me. I think this will be the wave of the future for games, AI that "learns" instead of being limited to fixed programming and a hard set of rules. This is what frustrates me with games like this is that there aren't enough personal-unique moments in the game because you go out to forums like this and read about people having the exact same experiences. Real AI would ensure each playthrough of the game would be specific and taylor made to each person, and with plenty of special moments to share. The ability to capture instant replays of these special moments and battles would also be appreciated. I understand this would require a lot more system requirements (neural nets require a lot of throughput and space) so this not something we'll probably see in the very near future, but soon I hope. This is what multi-player games have over single-player games is their unpredictability. Real AI would bring this aspect to single player games.

Yeah, I would definitely buy that..when do you reckon we'll get it? 

[Realmzmaster]

The main problem that some seem to having with mods regards the achievements and having them uploaded to an online profile that other people can view.

In the back of some people's minds they wonder if the other person got their achievements playing the game vanilla or did they use a mod to make it easier to get the achievement. Yes, some people do see it as a competition.

I for one think the achievements are pointless. Bioware may have thought they were a cute little gimmick to add to replayability. Maybe they should have left it as in game achievements not uploading them for the world to see.

I have no problem if a person wishes to mod their game.

I do have a problem when gamers give advice to other gamers on their first playthrough without telling them or forgetting that the advice giver modified their game. I assume when a person gives advice that the information is based on the vanilla version unless specified otherwise. I include using the console in this definition of modification.

I am not talking about changing difficulty that is a built-in mechanic.



Also we must remember that mods and the toolkit are only available for the PC. I do not remember my copy of DA:O coming with a toolkit. That is a separate download that is not considered part of the official purchasable package.



How a person play his/her single player game I could care less. You buy the game it is your right to play it however you want.

The achievements to me are meaningless, but to someone else it may not be meaningless.

[k9medusa]

Realmzmaster wrote...

In the back of some people's minds they wonder if the other person got their achievements playing the game vanilla or did they use a mod to make it easier to get the achievement. Yes, some people do see it as a competition.

It is a way to see if my char build ideas are good or not and it gaves something to do at higher levels, etc  I have been on online gamer server before, if I achieve something like I kill this boss solo or I can mine this area when most other builds can not --- It is a fun way to have a goal and something to work for.  May be I don't get a nice looking little icon in all games, but the achievement. idea is still there.  I do respect people a lot easier know that put in the time and work  in game  -- it get achievement. for free via a cheat, what is the fun in that?  May be you don't get an icon if beat this game in 22.5 hours, but that is an achievement. for some as well.

Definition of achievement
accomplishment: the action of accomplishing something 

Definitions of cheat
swindle: the act of swindling by some fraudulent scheme; "that book is a fraud"

(Just google define term)

I don't care what you what you do in own game, just be careful of ruining someone's fun for shake of own.

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

ModerateOsprey wrote...

AnnaBananaBamBamBoo wrote...

SNIPPED see above

Yeah, I would definitely buy that..when do you reckon we'll get it? 

 
With the cost of memory going down down down and high yield processors becoming more and more pervasive, I'd say the next generation of games, within 5 years. However, the advancement of artificial Intelligence, much like like the state of the development of intra-solar and inter-stellar space travel, is grossly retarded at this point. Hopefully with some commercial incentives (such as computer games which have driven the "cutting edge" of technology in personal computers (well, computers in general) for years) this highly underdeveloped field of computer science will take off. 
 
What does this have to do with mod'ing and cheating?  Well everything if you're doing those things for your own unique experience with the game.

[Sylixe]

It's not really a cheat if you are using mods after you have beaten the game already. I see them more as just enhancing the experience another time through. I don't use them myself but i don;t see an issue with using them after the first time through. I cannot even fathom why you would need a mod on your first time through the game though. The game can be setup to beat itself for pete sakes.

[Norman Ellis]

after reading through all of the arguments in this thread, i have come to one conclusion - not one of us actually cares if we use mods in the game, but what we do care about is that they make the unlocking of the achievements easier.

in short, people's ego's and e-peens are being trampled upon and they can't take it. they can't handle the fact that they had to go through hell and high water to unlock an achievement, and someone out there just installed a mod and cruised through unlocking it.

i propose we get rid of the achievements entirely and just let everyone enjoy the game the way they want to without anyone's ego's getting hit, and without everyone pointing fingers and yelling "cheater!" at anyone

Modifié par Norman Ellis, 09 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[k9medusa]

Is there a way to disable upload of achievement date to the online profile, but keep the rest of the data being updated?

[krylo]

Eurypterid wrote...

k9medusa wrote...

People can mod their own game anyway and how often they want (that is their right), but only request that we have is that when you do that, please just state that we unlock such and such by a mod. In that way, we look at your online profile and compares to someone's else or our own, we can compare apples to apples. We don't care if one mod that game or not, as long that we know it is a mod or not.

But why? I guess I just don't understand the issue here.

Why does it make a difference if you unlocked an achievement by playing the game 'pure' while another guy unlocked it using his modded game? What is there to compare other than the fact you have an achievment and the other guy has (or does not have) it too? There's no prize or contest or reward for it that would mean someone with a modded game has some kind of advantage.

E-Peen.

They want to be able to say, "Yeah?  Well I didn't CHEAT to get my achievements," or be able to say that they got "I'm kind of a big deal" without mods and have people actually believe them. 

If you don't care about E-Peen it doesn't matter.

Also, I'm totally with sloth.  Altering the game to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating.  Same as reshuffling the deck in a game of Klondike Solitaire, or putting in a cheat code in an NES game.  They were called that for a reason.  Cheat code.

Cheating doesn't make someone a bad person, however.  Games are made to be fun, and if you have more fun by cheating, go ahead and do that.  It's nobody's business but you're own so long as it's a single player experience.  It's just silly to say that altering/breaking the rules of a game to benefit yourself, or make it easier, isn't cheating just because you aren't directly affecting another player.

God knows I've powered up the console on Oblivion more than once for ****s and giggles, and I certainly didn't have to look up the Shadow Run Sega cheat code/how it worked and what it does.  How many times do you figure I used that back in the day?   I've certainly spawned tanks in GTA as well.  However, I'm not going to lie to myself and say that doing these things which make the game demonstrably easier aren't cheating.

Because they are.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 01:32 .

[Babaghanouj]

How does the way I play my game affect anybody else's method of playing the game? I wish I could say I remember a time when you could play a game without being chastised, but there have always been those who think their playing style is the one and only play style. Get over it, you just look foolish.

[CybAnt1]

Babaghanouj wrote...

How does the way I play my game affect anybody else's method of playing the game?

It doesn't. They just want to feel like they are more entitled or have worked harder to get their achievements than you have. 

Bah. The achievements in this game are as meaningless as they are in WoW. Yes, starting with recent versions, WoW will award you all sorts of "achievements". 

You get all kinds of cool-sounding "awards". Are they for anything other than showing to your friends or random strangers browsing your profile? Do they actually matter in any concrete way to the game. Get you extra gold, or a Shetland Pony? No. 

It's kind of like the joke they have at most corporate offices. Give people lots of meaningless position titles, like "Section Head of the Coffee Procurement Department". Doesn't matter if that doesn't mean, actually, jack ****, and isn't an actual promotion, therefore means nothing. People like being "awarded" all kinds of meaningless "honors" and "awards" just because it sounds cool, but means nothing. 

[Reaver1972]

cool