140 réponses à ce sujet

[Babaghanouj]

My question was rhetorical. _I_ know it doesn't, but clearly some people are convinced it does. *shrug* My time is better spent playing and ENJOYING the game rather than justifying anything (which I certainly do not feel obliged to do).

[Eurypterid]

So how is the faster cool down for pick pocketing 'cheating'? All it does is save some time. It doesn't give you an advantage in that it doesn't affect whether or not you succeed.



What about the respec mod? How is that 'cheating'? If you make a mistake with your character or you decide you don't like the line of talents you've taken and want to fix it, how is this a cheat? Or is it also cheating to restart from an earlier save in order to fix these things? Or to start a completely new game in order to fix these things?



How is Innodil's Pocket Plane a 'cheat'? It allows you to store gear to sell later instead of leaving a dungeon to track down a merchant to sell your loot, then trekking back to continue where you left off. It saves a ton of time.



The stamina potion mod: I can see an argument for that one, I guess. (I probably should uninstall that one since I never use the potions anyway though).



But again, cheating comes down to the user. Just because you consider something a cheat in your game doesn't make it so for others.

[k9medusa]

Eurypterid wrote...

~snip~

But again, cheating comes down to the user. Just because you consider something a cheat in your game doesn't make it so for others.

In other games, online game server should not enforce no running mods rule? or get yourself banned...

[The_Abyss]

I'm not sure why anyone would have an issue with how someone else plays a SINGLE PLAYER game. They paid for it - they're totally entitled to cheat it if they want.

[krylo]

Eurypterid wrote...

So how is the faster cool down for pick pocketing 'cheating'? All it does is save some time. It doesn't give you an advantage in that it doesn't affect whether or not you succeed.

Honestly, I'm not sure why pick pocketing even HAS a cool down, other than to keep characters from using nothing else in combat if you put it on a tactic, so I'll give you THIS one.

What about the respec mod? How is that 'cheating'? If you make a mistake with your character or you decide you don't like the line of talents you've taken and want to fix it, how is this a cheat?

Had to look it up to see how it works, but: 

1) Allows you to respec companions.  It was a design decision to make them build the way they do until you get them.  With respect you can min max your entire team for whatever you want instead of having them each come to you in less than perfect condition.  This will obviously make the game much easier (Dropping Morrigan's shapeshifting comes to mind immediately, as does completely redoing Oghren's stats).

2) It allows you to test builds at different levels and select the best build for that specific level, instead of working through a game in a specific build.  You can also cherry pick powers according to what battle you'll be going into.  Lots of rage demons ahead?  Have your mage quaff that potion and respec his/her fire spells into frost, etc.

Or is it also cheating to restart from an earlier save in order to fix these things? Or to start a completely new game in order to fix these things?

No, because this is the way the game was originally designed, and requires a significant addition of time and effort.

How is Innodil's Pocket Plane a 'cheat'? It allows you to store gear to sell later instead of leaving a dungeon to track down a merchant to sell your loot, then trekking back to continue where you left off. It saves a ton of time.

Limited carrying capacity was, again, a design decision.  You save significant amounts of money on backpacks--which could now be used on tomes--and you can carry around a bunch of extra weaons and armor to prepare for various different situations, carry extra poisons and poultices without negative repurcussions.  Make money with the lyrium potions more easily as that you can place huge amounts of the ingredients in the pocket plane as opposed to having to make multiple trips to each stop to get real/true returns, etc.

Just because you consider something a cheat in your game doesn't make it so for others.

I don't know, man.

I'm operating on objective reality here.  Cheating is to violate rules or regulations..  Regardless of whether you just cheat for convenience and don't use those abilities in the way I've outlined as obvious exploits--you are still breaking/bending/violating the original rules put in place to play the game.

As I said before, I don't see this as an inherently bad thing.  Games are meant to be fun, and cheating can enhance that fun.  Even in multiplayer games (Monopoly/Axis & Allies/Risk--never played any of these games with more than one other person wherein we didn't all understand that we were all trying to cheat in some manner.  Boring otherwise).

Doesn't make it not cheating, though.

Honestly, I'd be using mods left and right if not for the fact that I know from experience (FO3, Oblivion) that when I go down that path it leads only to madness.  And by madness I mean spending all day and night looking up new and exciting mods to install until the game no longer resembles the original.   Looking in my oblivion mod backups tells me I've got 59 files in there... each one being a different zipped mod.  A few of them are packs, like oscuro's oblivion overhaul.

Really, we're arguing semantics, and if not for the fact that I've played DA:O enough that it actually takes an act of will to get started--and my current playthrough is a sword and board warrior that I'm not actually liking much--I probably wouldn't bother.

But I'm bored.

[Loc'n'lol]

The_Abyss wrote...

they're totally entitled to cheat it if they want.

The "problem" arises when they start ranting about it. I mean... when some people say their character has a strength score in the hundreds and kicks ass and you should follow their example, but no no no, it's not a cheat, it just looks stupid...
Or it's a successful troll, your pick.

[k9medusa]

The_Abyss wrote...

I'm not sure why anyone would have an issue with how someone else plays a SINGLE PLAYER game. They paid for it - they're totally entitled to cheat it if they want.

But DAO is not a pure single player game because of the online profile.  I really don't care want you do in offline game, just how the data is updated to the online profile and how it reflects the player actions

[Curlain]

k9medusa wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...

I'm not sure why anyone would have an issue with how someone else plays a SINGLE PLAYER game. They paid for it - they're totally entitled to cheat it if they want.

But DAO is not a pure single player game because of the online profile.  I really don't care want you do in offline game, just how the data is updated to the online profile and how it reflects the player actions

Then seriously, like I said, take the things away.  Honestly since when did what happened in an SP game become a competition 

But really, just lock it out then for those like me who use some mods, and those who really play this game for some achievement score system to mark themselves off against others can, and those of us who play it because we like it purely as an SP game can be back to that as well.  Just get BioWare to do it, everyone can be happy, and we can get over this silly argument 

Modifié par Curlain, 09 mars 2010 - 06:07 .

[k9medusa]

 I guess there always be two camps on this topic -- I can not see a middle ground, unless Bioware put an option for to disable this aspect of the game and people use that.

[mousestalker]

There actually is only one side that is right on this issue.



The correct opinion is that any mods I use and like are gameplay enhancements. Any mods I don't like are cheats.



That should settle all arguments and resolve this dispute. If anyone disagrees, you are wrong.

[Eurypterid]

k9medusa wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...

I'm not sure why anyone would have an issue with how someone else plays a SINGLE PLAYER game. They paid for it - they're totally entitled to cheat it if they want.

But DAO is not a pure single player game because of the online profile.  I really don't care want you do in offline game, just how the data is updated to the online profile and how it reflects the player actions

The on-line profile does not make it in any form a multiplayer game. It's still purely single player. The profile shows what a player has done in their game. It affects no one else. I really don't see how you think that looking at someone else's profile has any impact on your play experience. And to be frank, I enjoy having the convenience of having my character profiles available for me to have a look at on this site. I really don't care if others see it or not, but why should that be taken away from me just because I use mods?

Kryo: point taken on the mods. However, since I don't use them that way, is it really a cheat to have them installed and use them as I listed in my previous post? Seriously? Just becuase I use them as a time-saving measure? I have a real problem seeing that point.

Sounds like the sticking point here is if it requires one to invest significant time and effort to change things/get a different outcome, then it's not a cheat, even though the final result may be exactly the same.

[krylo]

mousestalker wrote...

There actually is only one side that is right on this issue.

The correct opinion is that any mods I use and like are gameplay enhancements. Any mods I don't like are cheats.

That should settle all arguments and resolve this dispute. If anyone disagrees, you are wrong.

But I'm only here to argue...

[k9medusa]

scyphozoa wrote...

counter-strike was a mod and changed the world. counter-strike went from a good idea to a global phenomenon. Just because the OP doesn't like the mods made available, does not speak to the quality of the vanilla game experience or the quality of mods available.

the whole thread is just a personal opinion, which everyone is entitled to. but modding is an extremely creative way for non-game designers to learn about game design. in fact, NWN modders were recruited by Bioware, if my memory is right.

edit - just as the op said, Dragon Age is a monument to the imagination and modding is an extension of that imagination. It is not the imagination of Bioware and developers, it is the imagination of the millions of gamers who got to play Dragon Age and then [their] imaginations started running...

You are right. Bioware did hire some players because of their mods.  Mods are fun and are good for the game.  That is one of the reason that I enjoy DAO (and NWN1 &2)  I am hoping that DAO someday can have the same # of mods -- complete stories outside of the OC ( some player created online worlds Like NWN did) I guess the real question is when someone say I did such and such in X hours, is that boast vaild (ie they worked at it) or they use some type of mod to do that.  Just want to compare apples to apples. Is that so wrong?  Like I said before, I don't care want to do in your own game -- it meant to be the way that you like -- just when boast want you have done, it will be worth more if worked at it....

[bzombo]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Mods are not cheats.

Actually, a huge ammount of mods ARE cheats.  Sure, the OP shouldn't have implied that ALL mods are cheats (changing your hair isn't cheating) but if you poke around DANexus a bit you will find that the vast majority of mods add overpowered items and abiities, add was to make more money, or change the rules in order to make the player more powerful.

I run about 20 mods right now, all of them cosmetic.   Retexture mods, hairstyles, colour replacers, 80's porn music for sex scenes etc etc etc...

I think what th OP is saing however, is that some of the most popular mods are cheats but pple refuse to acknowedge it.:  Respec mod?  Cheat.  Dog as a 5th member?  Cheat. Lock bash?  Cheat. Extra Tactics?  Cheat.  

true. i used some mods, but on my first playthrough the only thing i added was the party camp chest late in the game. i wanted my first time through to be authentic. now i add mods to change the experience up. i refuse to use respec. that is too mmo for me. i do use the black templar armor, which i love. it is powerful, but based on a heavy armor already in the game. might be the dragon armor. i forget. i also use a different sword, but it looks so dang cool i just had to get it. anything that give like +10 attack, +3 all attributes and crazy stuff like that i won't download. there's an item that was created with a resale value of 222 gold. i don't use that anymore once i caught it. i like a few changes here and there, but god mode items stink. 

[TaHol]

I use mod that lets my character kiss Zevran everytime he wants. Surely I play the game all wrong, 'cos Zevran was not ment to be kissed like that. Sue me.



I am so fed up with people who have this secret knowledge of how everything should be done. Surely you look from Bible every day how that day should be lived, and tell your neighbours too how they should live? Does it give you people some kind of satisfaction or feeling that you are somehow better than white trash, or what is the kick in telling people what and how they should do things?



And these lousy achievements...I have once uninstalled my game and lost every achievement, and every unlocked speciality. So I used mod that unlocked my (very hard way) unlocked specialities. And do you know what game did when I finished a playthrough with character that was created before reinstalling the game? It unlocked achievement that says I have finished game without dying a single time. So was game cheating? Who was cheating? Was Bioware cheating when they did not take a notice that sometimes people uninstall game, or reinstall their OS?

[krylo]

You ninja'd me.  Now I gotta write a whole nother post.  Jeez.

Eurypterid wrote...
The on-line profile does not make it in any form a multiplayer game. It's still purely single player. The profile shows what a player has done in their game. It affects no one else. I really don't see how you think that looking at someone else's profile has any impact on your play experience. And to be frank, I enjoy having the convenience of having my character profiles available for me to have a look at on this site. I really don't care if others see it or not, but why should that be taken away from me just because I use mods?

Like I said before--E-Peen, bragging right, etc.  It doesn't affect their play, but they want to be able to objectively compare their achievements with someone else's and feel good about themselves.  A little tag after an achievement someone else has that says "Done with mods installed," would allow them to feel better by patting themselves on the back and saying, "I did it in vanilla."

I don't particularly agree with that view, in that I, again, like Sloth, think achievements are a rather poor development in gaming.  I'm not a fan of e-peen wagging, but I've been on the internet long enough to know what drives it and why people would want others to not get achievements if they were modding/cheating.

I say this all with the assumption that you're honestly curious about why it matters and not trying to argue that it shouldn't matter to them.

Eurypterid wrote...

Kryo: point taken on the mods. However, since I don't use them that way, is it really a cheat to have them installed and use them as I listed in my previous post? Seriously? Just becuase I use them as a time-saving measure? I have a real problem seeing that point.

Saving time and effort is kind of the definition of what cheats should allow you to do.  They're extremely innocuous cheats, I agree, but cheats nonetheless.  Though I'll have to see how the official respec option is offered on the 16th.  If it's an item given out for free that can be used by all companions multiple times, well then respec mod won't be a cheat anymore.  If it's a one time deal, and/or costs a good chunk of change, on the other hand I'd still consider using it, even just to fix a build you don't like, cheating.

Still willing to give you that stealing one.  Really I should consider even that a cheat, as it still alters/breaks the rules of the game as they were originally set forth in order to give you an advantage--but considering how utterly innocuous that is I'm just not willing to take the hardline on it.

Maybe someone else wants to?

Anyone?

TaHol wrote...

I use mod that lets my character kiss
Zevran everytime he wants. Surely I play the game all wrong, 'cos
Zevran was not ment to be kissed like that. Sue me.

I for one am offended.  Zevran is not some hussy like Alistair and Morrigan, making kissy faces all over the place all the time.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 07:30 .

[bzombo]

RoninOmega wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Mods are not cheats.

Actually, a huge ammount of mods ARE cheats.  Sure, the OP shouldn't have implied that ALL mods are cheats (changing your hair isn't cheating) but if you poke around DANexus a bit you will find that the vast majority of mods add overpowered items and abiities, add was to make more money, or change the rules in order to make the player more powerful.

I run about 20 mods right now, all of them cosmetic.   Retexture mods, hairstyles, colour replacers, 80's porn music for sex scenes etc etc etc...

I think what th OP is saing however, is that some of the most popular mods are cheats but pple refuse to acknowedge it.:  Respec mod?  Cheat.  Dog as a 5th member?  Cheat. Lock bash?  Cheat. Extra Tactics?  Cheat.  

Lol the bottom mods are not cheats

Respec mod is a function in various games to change your stats, mass effect 2 allows for respecialization, also, awakening is going to have the same feature, it isn't cheating

a dog as a 5th member cheating?  Really?  then I might aswell call the revive undead spell cheating, because it's the same thing

Lock bash is kind of cheating I can agree to a certain extent, but you do run the risk of actually destroying the items inside, not all chances are getting them sucessfully, some tries can fail, and either way, a rogue can do it all for you with no hassle, so it's not considered a cheat if you haven't noticed

extra tactics can be cheating, but then again, it's just expanding the gameplay, it's not gamebreaking and actually implements well with the game, so I don't consider it a cheat


Have you even used these mods?

you're completely within your rights to use any mod you want. it's a one player game. go have fun. i think the point is you're fooling yourself if you say you're not technically cheating. anything done outside of the rules to win the game is cheating. respec is not in origins. it allows you to tailor your character to any given situation. last i checked, mass effect 2 was a separate game from dragon age. that is cheating. dog as a 5th member is cheating. it gives you an extra party npc, which means monsters die more easily. the undead spell is in the game, so not cheating. bad example. lock bash is cheating. warriors and mages aren't supposed to pick locks, so you added something that allows bashing chests open. you circumvented a rule in the game. that's the very essence of cheating. many of us are doing it, just don't try and tell everyone it's not cheating.

[bzombo]

Shayaryn wrote...

I finished the vanilla game twice before I used any non-cosmetic mods. I mostly use clothing mods, and yes, some of the stats are over-powered, but there's a lower stat version, too, and you know what? I don't care. I already beat the game. I want some pretty stuff. I also use a mod that adds runes to bows and rebalances archery, for the PC and enemies. Fights against enemy archers are usually SCATTERSCHOT SCATTERSHOT SCATTERSHOT. That ability is really cheap. Is it a cheat? No. But it's overpowered. Same with Arrow of Slaying and Mana Clash. And Stealth, too. Stealth is way overpowered. It can be done anywhere, regardless of lighting, and it's easy to kill multiple enemies at a time with grenades without being seen.

I don't know why some console users, as well as some PC users, think mods are cheats. Some are, but not all. Changing character face morphs to realistic proportions isn't cheating. Nor is retexturing the female Dalish armor to make it look like it might offer some protection. New hair styles and eye tetures aren't cheating. And after some time, the vanilla gear gets really boring to look at, especially for rogues. Some mods are bug fixes; the Ancient Elven Boots can only be added through mods or the console for PC users.

Dragon Age is meant to be modded. If it wasn't, there would be no Toolkit.

Besides, without mods, my character wouldn't look like this:

not all mods are cheats, but some are. the problem is some people rationalize cheating away and act like they're not. they are, which is just fine, but don't tell me you're not (i don't mean you) cheating when you are. cheating is cheating. there's a hard line of what is cheating. people like to blur that line to make themselves feel better. just admit it and move on. it's a single player game. it does not matter. it's just disingenuous.

[bzombo]

Eurypterid wrote...

So how is the faster cool down for pick pocketing 'cheating'? All it does is save some time. It doesn't give you an advantage in that it doesn't affect whether or not you succeed.

What about the respec mod? How is that 'cheating'? If you make a mistake with your character or you decide you don't like the line of talents you've taken and want to fix it, how is this a cheat? Or is it also cheating to restart from an earlier save in order to fix these things? Or to start a completely new game in order to fix these things?

How is Innodil's Pocket Plane a 'cheat'? It allows you to store gear to sell later instead of leaving a dungeon to track down a merchant to sell your loot, then trekking back to continue where you left off. It saves a ton of time.

The stamina potion mod: I can see an argument for that one, I guess. (I probably should uninstall that one since I never use the potions anyway though).

But again, cheating comes down to the user. Just because you consider something a cheat in your game doesn't make it so for others.

cheating is  defined word. just because you change the meaning of cheating for yourself doesn't change the fact that you are cheating. again, it means nothing that you're cheating in a single player game, but to sit here and try to tell us you're not is silly. respec is cheating. you built a character and are changing him/her to make your character better than it was as you built it. if respec was in origins that would be different, but it is not. anyone that uses awakening as an excuse is silly. it's in awakening and not origins, plus you have to buy it, not install it for free. cheat to your heart's content! i have as well, but i don't delude myself. i have things i won't touch for personal gameplay reasons, like respec. but i have used some overpowered items. some i deleted for being too much, but i still did it. my long sword is slightly better than any sword in the game. it looks so cool i keep it. if i had not played through and beaten it as a vanilla game already i'd never touch the thing. i do now because i want new weapons. most of us who use mods are guilty. it means nothing, but don't try and say you're not cheating.

[Realmzmaster]

One of the problems some are having is being called cheaters because they use mods. Cheating has a negative connotation.

These gamers feel they are being perceived as evil people because they use mods to enhance their enjoyment.

What you do in a single player game is your business. The problem comes when people come to the forum to brag about their accomplishments. This is where the competition juices start flowing and mods become a sticking point. Gamers point to their online profile and say look at all my achievements.

Cheating is any action that goes against the rules and regulations specified by the designer that affect gameplay. The respec mod is a cheat.

You get half way through the game and you do not like the way you built your character. So you use the respec mod. Let me state that it affects only your game, so you have the right to do it, but you are cheating the system. There is no respec mod that has been developed by the designer (until Awakening). There may be one in the future but not now. In fact any mod that affects gameplay for better or worse could be considered a cheat.

I could care less if a gamer uses mods in a single player game. The mods I am looking foward to are mods that give me a whole new story, locations and plot away from the OC. I am looking for new worlds and challenges.

The toolkit allows you to create mods, which is good. Not all mods are cheats. Some mods just modify the look and feel. Are these mods cheats? No, because they do not affect gameplay. But some mods seriously affect gameplay, like a sword that gives +50 to attack or +10 to all attributes.

It is a single player game, do what you want.

[CybAnt1]

I don't know. I'm really looking forward to mods that add content. New monsters, new spells, new areas, new dungeons, new companions, maybe even new campaigns. However, I understand that stuff takes longer to write.



The game has only been out 5 months. I'm not surprised that the majority of mods are cosmetic (not my cup of tea, but I understand why it's important for some), or that the highest rated mods make sure nude bodies look nude. Then there are the ones that affect gameplay, and those are really the only ones we're arguing about. But even gameplay mods are relatively easy to write.



Content mods are harder. We're just going to have to be more patient for them. One I like is called Alley of Murders. It adds a whole new area to Denerim and a new world quest area and gives you some short additional sidequests. I love that and I hope to see more like it.



The only mod I've seen that adds a new playable companion is the Enigma Battle Dungeon, which yes lets an intelligent talking darkspawn join your party ... for all those who want one in Awakenings. (but afaict he can't leave the battle dungeon with you.) But this is also something we could see in the future (although writing dialogue trees for them is MUCH harder, so I suspect they'll be dialogueless.)



Frankly, a moddable game is a more enjoyable one, and a more customizable one. And I'm looking forward to the future.

[traversc]

Eurypterid wrote...

So how is the faster cool down for pick pocketing 'cheating'? All it does is save some time. It doesn't give you an advantage in that it doesn't affect whether or not you succeed.

It would be trivial to make a mod to unlock all achievements, codexes and warp you to the epilogue.  This is not cheating because, afterall, it is just saving time. 

But again, cheating comes down to the user. Just because you consider something a cheat in your game doesn't make it so for others.

And people keep telling you that is not true. What you do in a SP game is nonmybiz and you can cheat all you want.  But you are not simply entitled to redefine words when you converse with other people for no good reason.  "Cheating" has a definition.  It is not subjective, like "tasty" or "fun" but is simply defined as what happens when you do not play by the rules. 

You COULD argue that the toolset is "part of the game" and thus item mods or no recharge mods are  "not breaking the rules" (and thus not cheating), but then you are also essentially arguing that warp-to-epilogue mods and unlock-all-achievement mods are not cheating either. 

Modifié par traversc, 09 mars 2010 - 09:37 .

[CybAnt1]

Player A manages to make it through the Deep Roads in 2 hours -- 1st playthrough. (I'm just making numbers off the top of my head.) Player A managed to do this because he looked at the Prima Game Guide and online game guides and managed to avoid unnecessary sections of the tunnels and encounters.



Player B is a "pure" roleplayer and realizes this is giving her character metagaming knowledge she shouldn't have. Player B insists on exploring the Deep Roads without a map and zero prior knowledge about what she is going to encounter. It takes Player B 5 hours to finish.



It took Player B longer than Player A to finish because A took advantage of something that B wouldn't. If there was a "Zip Through Deep Roads in 1 Hour" achievement, A would have gotten it, and B wouldn't.



Question: is A a "cheater," and should A have their achievement taken away?



I'm very interested in this answer.

[krylo]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Player A manages to make it through the Deep Roads in 2 hours -- 1st playthrough. (I'm just making numbers off the top of my head.) Player A managed to do this because he looked at the Prima Game Guide and online game guides and managed to avoid unnecessary sections of the tunnels and encounters.

Player B is a "pure" roleplayer and realizes this is giving her character metagaming knowledge she shouldn't have. Player B insists on exploring the Deep Roads without a map and zero prior knowledge about what she is going to encounter. It takes Player B 5 hours to finish.

It took Player B longer than Player A to finish because A took advantage of something that B wouldn't. If there was a "Zip Through Deep Roads in 1 Hour" achievement, A would have gotten it, and B wouldn't.

Question: is A a "cheater," and should A have their achievement taken away?

I'm very interested in this answer.

I've always felt that guides were both cheating AND an excellent way to ruin about 90% of the fun in any game ever.  Totally ruin any sense of surprise, or accomplishment over surmounting a challenge yourself.  Though I'll admit that everytime I play through xenogears I look up the goddamn music puzzle in Solaris.  I suck at music puzzles so hard.

Also Prima guides pretty much suck, so player A is not only a cheater but a cheater who wasted his money on a subpar product when he could have just hopped on GameFaqs three days after release and find much more complete and more accurate guides for free.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 09:48 .