140 réponses à ce sujet

[Oak Tree Leaf]

Eurypterid wrote...
 the reduced cool down for pick pocket mod

.... brb!

[CybAnt1]

Not to get into a debate about how hard the Prima Guide sucks -- and I concur there are very good online walkthroughs (just none I've seen with as detailed maps) -- but last I looked the thing is stamped all over the front cover with the words "endorsed" and "authorized" and "official".



So if it turns you into a cheater, at least you once again appear to be doing it with the blessing of both Bioware and Electronic Arts ...



(As far as fun killing -- I used it very minimally on my 1st playthrough and more heavily on subsequent ones, and I found it killed zero of my fun, but YFMV -- your fun may vary; the main thing it helped me with on playthrough 2 was seeing all the quests & areas I had never seen)



The real reason for my rhetorical question: so now if you feel this way do you want the "scarlet C" for "Cheater" emblazoned on the achievement screen of anyone who looked at the Prima Guide, or in fact, ANY guide/walkthrough?



How about doing this for anybody who consulted one of the many character building guides? Hmmm? People using character building guides may have an ADDITIONAL ADVANTAGE that characters NOT using character building guides have. In fact, people COMING HERE TO THE FORUMS are getting hints & help that people not coming here to the forums don't get.



Maybe you see my point? There are lots of ways some players can advantage themselves over others in a game. Could you possibly check or control for them all?



**The answer is no**, yes?



If so, then you will come to the same logical conclusion I have, which is that you should stop giving a **** about the advantages other players are giving themselves, except insofar as you might warn to learn about ones that will help you. QED.

[Cowboy_christo]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Player A manages to make it through the Deep Roads in 2 hours -- 1st playthrough. (I'm just making numbers off the top of my head.) Player A managed to do this because he looked at the Prima Game Guide and online game guides and managed to avoid unnecessary sections of the tunnels and encounters.

Player B is a "pure" roleplayer and realizes this is giving her character metagaming knowledge she shouldn't have. Player B insists on exploring the Deep Roads without a map and zero prior knowledge about what she is going to encounter. It takes Player B 5 hours to finish.

It took Player B longer than Player A to finish because A took advantage of something that B wouldn't. If there was a "Zip Through Deep Roads in 1 Hour" achievement, A would have gotten it, and B wouldn't.

Question: is A a "cheater," and should A have their achievement taken away?

I'm very interested in this answer.

Answer is no. The developer never established "rule" per say. You can argue that the limitation of the game are the rule but when somebody give u a house and the tool/material(Toolkit) to add or change anything then there are no rule. You can't say someone cheat but u can certainly call someone silly for heavily modifying is game.

Also calling people cheater bcause they use mod is really hilarious when the game has so many flaw/bug that can be exploited like infinite gold. There is also some balance issue *cough* arcane warrior *cough*.

Anyway it all come down to everyone's point of view, if you think its cheating then so be it but keep it to yourself and the opposite is true. Now i shall leave this thread for it hold no purpose.

[Eurypterid]

bzombo wrote...
cheating is  defined word. just because you change the meaning of cheating for yourself doesn't change the fact that you are cheating. again, it means nothing that you're cheating in a single player game, but to sit here and try to tell us you're not is silly.

IMO, what's silly is pointing to the definition of the word 'cheat' and applying it to a game that provides a toolset as part of the package, and allows - even encourages - modding. So I guess we're going to have to disagree on this one.

respec is cheating. you built a character and are changing him/her to make your character better than it was as you built it.

And starting a new game, using the exact same character build, but choosing those different talents or feats that you decide you want is different how, other than the fact it takes you much more time? So is each subsequent run of the game cheating?

if respec was in origins that would be different, but it is not. anyone that uses awakening as an excuse is silly. it's in awakening and not origins, plus you have to buy it, not install it for free. cheat to your heart's content! i have as well, but i don't delude myself. i have things i won't touch for personal gameplay reasons, like respec. but i have used some overpowered items. some i deleted for being too much, but i still did it. my long sword is slightly better than any sword in the game. it looks so cool i keep it. if i had not played through and beaten it as a vanilla game already i'd never touch the thing. i do now because i want new weapons. most of us who use mods are guilty. it means nothing, but don't try and say you're not cheating.

On a slightly side note, I've always found it odd that people state they've 'beaten' an RPG. I've never really thought of it that way, and find it jarring when i read it. I always considered it 'completing' the game as opposed to 'beating' it. Perhaps that's where the disconnect in viewing the use of mods lies.

Just as a point of interest, my first run through the game was vanilla (no mods) most of my second run was as well, until I got fed up with the long cooldown time of the pick pocket skill. Knowing that, does it make a difference to other people with respect to my achievements? They're still the same achievements. They still mean as little or as much as they did before I posted this.

Just to be clear: I have an issue with people that have the seemingly arrogant attitude of pointing the finger and calling 'cheater' at someone that's using a mod or mods, when they know nothing of exactly what that particular player is doing with that mod. Some are obvisouly self explanatory. But others can be used in various ways. Just as an example, I think it's stretching the scope of the definition pretty far to call a mod like the faster cool down for stealing a 'cheat' in any fashion.

Krylo: yes, I'm honestly confused as to why it matters to some people.

[krylo]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The real reason for my rhetorical question: so now if you feel this way do you want the "scarlet C" for "Cheater" emblazoned on the achievement screen of anyone who looked at the Prima Guide, or in fact, ANY guide/walkthrough?

Nah.  I wouldn't put one there for mods either.  I'm not the one who cares about Achievements.

If I were I'd download the respec mod and get all the "Get all abilities in x-branch of blah blah blah" in like five minutes standing in camp and respeccing.  

'cause I'm a dirty cheater, sometimes.

That said, I completely and fully understand why other people think that way.  It's all about ego.

Also: It should be a Scarlet A.  I know the letter doesn't match the crime, but it's just so much classIER.

Eurypterid wrote...

 I have an issue with people that have the seemingly arrogant attitude of pointing the finger and calling 'cheater' at someone that's using a mod or mods

I hope I'm not coming off as too arrogant with it myself.  I pointed out that I cheat in a lot of games and mod a lot of games to try to temper that with the fact that I don't see myself as any better than people who mod DA.

Well.

That's not true.

I AM arrogant and DO see myself as better than people who mod DA.  And people who don't.  And people who have never played.

I just don't see myself as better because of the modding thing.  It's all the other ways I'm superior that matter.

Eurypterid wrote...
Krylo: yes, I'm honestly confused as to why it matters to some people.

Welp, it's an ego thing.

I guess for comparison I could give you this--Let's say you're in a cooking contest with someone.  You enjoy cooking.  You get great joy from it.  Regardless of that, you slave in the kitchen for hours on end, and after many days you have, alone, and without a recipe to guide you, created a masterwork of a four course meal.  It is delicious.

Your competition, however hired Emeril Lagasse to help them KICK IT UP A NOTCH before putting out their meal.

Regardless of whether you win or lose, you're going to feel more validated in your own skill if you know your competition did that.  If you lose (don't have all the same achievements) you can comfort yourself in the knowledge that they wouldn't have won (gotten the achievements) without that help.  If you win, you feel all the more skilled for winning inspite of it.

Basically, Achievements turn single player games into multi-player contests to people with particularly competitive personalities.  I'd say my personality is juuuuuust short of being competitive enough for that.

If achievements had been around when I had been younger, though, I'd probably care myself.  I won't kid myself and pretend I'm some zen master buddhist who is immune to the lure of competition.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[mousestalker]

What Krylo said.



Some people feel inadequate. To compensate for their perceived shortcomings they then attempt challenges. To make their challenge more challenging and compensate for their deficiencies they then downgrade other people who have tried similar challenges.



It isn't pretty, but it is very human.



I'd rather try to compensate for my shortcomings by being kinder, more loving or even funnier than other people. Alas, wisdom is a lost cause, so I've abandoned that yard stick.

[castaftw]

After skipping most of the wall of texts I just want to say that the OP has a point but that he formulated it the wrong way. Yes it is the playing experience that matters so if various peple get off by installing nude or power mods let them have their fun it is not like it will ruin your game experience anyway!



Now I'm back to playing scII beta untill awakening arrives

[mousestalker]

castaftw wrote...

After skipping most of the wall of texts I just want to say that the OP has a point but that he formulated it the wrong way. Yes it is the playing experience that matters so if various peple get off by installing nude or power mods let them have their fun it is not like it will ruin your game experience anyway!

Now I'm back to playing scII beta untill awakening arrives

TL;DNR

[castaftw]

mousestalker wrote...

castaftw wrote...

After skipping most of the wall of texts I just want to say that the OP has a point but that he formulated it the wrong way. Yes it is the playing experience that matters so if various peple get off by installing nude or power mods let them have their fun it is not like it will ruin your game experience anyway!

Now I'm back to playing scII beta untill awakening arrives

TL;DNR

Hah seems your attention span is even shorter than mine

[traversc]

Eurypterid wrote...

IMO, what's silly is pointing to the definition of the word 'cheat' and applying it to a game that provides a toolset as part of the package, and allows - even encourages - modding. So I guess we're going to have to disagree on this one.

You COULD argue that the toolset is "part of the game" and thus item
mods or no recharge mods are  "not breaking the rules" (and thus not
cheating), but then you are also essentially arguing that
warp-to-epilogue mods and unlock-all-achievement mods are not cheating
either.

So answer the question: would  a mod that unlocked all achievements, gave you 1000+ in each stat and warped you to the end game... would that be cheating?  If so, who are YOU to draw the line?  

If that is not cheating "according to you" then at least I applaud that  you are consistent and follow your logic to the end. 

Just to be clear: I have an issue with people that have the seemingly arrogant attitude of pointing the finger and calling 'cheater' at someone that's using a mod or mods, when they know nothing of exactly what that particular player is doing with that mod. Some are obvisouly self explanatory. But others can be used in various ways. Just as an example, I think it's stretching the scope of the definition pretty far to call a mod like the faster cool down for stealing a 'cheat' in any fashion.

No one is pointing a finger at anyone.  Saying that someone is a "cheater" in a SP game is equivalent to saying that someone has blue eyes.  It is a factual statement, nothign more. 

Krylo: yes, I'm honestly confused as to why it matters to some people.

if you dont care, why do you care if your online achievements were taken away? 

[CybAnt1]

*This* is the main reason why I hate "achievements" (for anything other than personal vanity) in SP games (that then go on your "online profile").



It starts stupid, pointless arguments over whether they were "earned" or not.



I got the "killed the boss of Dungeon Z in one try" achievement because I asked my brother who already played the game what the best tactics are for killing him.



You never talked to your brother (or anybody else) for the same advice, then needed 3 attempts to kill him, and never got the same achievement.



Did I earn it? Did I not? **Why do you fracking care**?



Yes this is why achievements are silly: YOU CAN NEVER REALLY KNOW HOW MUCH ACTUAL EFFORT went into achieving them vs.... cheating, cheese, talking to your brother, etc.



THEREFORE: like they said in the movie Meatballs: "it just doesn't matter"

[Eurypterid]

traversc wrote...

So answer the question: would  a mod that unlocked all achievements, gave you 1000+ in each stat and warped you to the end game... would that be cheating?  If so, who are YOU to draw the line?  

If that is not cheating "according to you" then at least I applaud that  you are consistent and follow your logic to the end. 

In my opinion? No, since I'm of the belief that you can't 'cheat' in a single player game. *edit* The only 'cheating' there is the player is cheating themselves out of the game experience. But if that's what they want to do, more power to them.

if you dont care, why do you care if your online achievements were taken away? 

I already addressed that previously. But to reiterate: I like the convenience of having all my characters on the site to view their stats for myself. Whether other people can see them or not, I don't care. So, maybe if people that use mods have their achievements and characters hidden from all other viewers would be the solution? I'd be fine with that. But looking at my own achievement list generally sparks a memory of a battle or a situation with particular characters in the game. And it often makes me remember something fondly, and sometimes makes me think "Hey, maybe I'll try something different in my next run through there".  Why should I lose that because someone I don't even know is upset that I used a mod during the game where I collected that particular achievement?

With respect to achievments, for me, I'm more curious as to what the achievments are. I couldn't care less how people actually get them.

Modifié par Eurypterid, 09 mars 2010 - 11:37 .

[Realmzmaster]

Maybe it is me, but I do not see the purpose in achievements or an online character profile. Especially one that is not even current. DA:O is the first CRPG I have played with this so-called achievement feature.

Is there a point to them? If so what is it? The "I am a kind of big deal" achievement can be done by never dying thoughout the game (very tough) or by dying, but reloading a previous save where you still have zero injuries and continuing. What kind of achievement is that? Save and Reload have been a standard staple in CRPGs (but that is another tired argument)

The only reason that people care about modding is that it affects their bragging. Maybe I am too old school, but many of the older CRPGs were not concerned with achievements. Completing the game was the achievement! The journey getting there was the fun.

[Raelmic]

Mods are ment to allow the individual player the ability to customize the game to his liking. If he wants to run around insta-killing everything he sees or just have a cool looking weapon it should be up to him. Really who are we to decide what goes on in someone else's game ? Mabie we should make a law that you can only play DA in an official Bioware t-shirt. Or you can't have relations with a small goat in your own home (ok ,,,, Mabie i'd vote for the "no goat loving" law). But seriously this is not a MMO,, anything I do in my game has no effect on anyone else.

[k9medusa]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Player A manages to make it through the Deep Roads in 2 hours -- 1st playthrough. (I'm just making numbers off the top of my head.) Player A managed to do this because he looked at the Prima Game Guide and online game guides and managed to avoid unnecessary sections of the tunnels and encounters.

Player B is a "pure" roleplayer and realizes this is giving her character metagaming knowledge she shouldn't have. Player B insists on exploring the Deep Roads without a map and zero prior knowledge about what she is going to encounter. It takes Player B 5 hours to finish.

It took Player B longer than Player A to finish because A took advantage of something that B wouldn't. If there was a "Zip Through Deep Roads in 1 Hour" achievement, A would have gotten it, and B wouldn't.

Question: is A a "cheater," and should A have their achievement taken away?

I'm very interested in this answer.

IMHO, that the achievement should NOT be taken away, but the player should tell the online players that  "Hey, I used such and such, thus I saved a lot of time and thus I did not do it  it the hard way."   In that way, when other online players compare statistics, achievement , equipment, etc  can compare apples to apples  Is that so hard to do?   I love the tool set idea, and have no problem with mods or cheats or what ever in your own game.  How about this idea? Instead of public online profiles, make only you and your online "friends" (as in forums) can see them?

Modifié par k9medusa, 10 mars 2010 - 01:26 .

[Janni-in-VA]

I do use mods. I freely admit it. And in some games, I use cheat codes, but I never kid myself that they are anything but cheats. When my niece first told me about cheat codes, I had a real problem with them. "Aren't you supposed to play fair? Where's the fun in winning the game if it's too easy?" However, as I talked to her and her mother more and watched her play, I realized that it was about fun. Later, I found myself using cheat codes in certain "world builder" games like Age of Empires. Can you say "pepperoni pizza"? I thought that you could.

Then, I got TES III: Morrowind, and the world of modding opened up to me. I'm not ashamed to say I play a heavily modded game -- at last count I was running over 70 mods. Most of them are art, houses, clothing, that kind of thing. I don't use uber weapons. I changed gameplay in a few ways to make the game more immersive, but nothing that makes it easier. And, I finished the game a few times with a vanilla install and nothing but art. With Oblivion, I was choosier about what I installed, as I didn't really want to repeat the 70+ mods thing. I think right now I have about 20 installed. Again, it's art, clothes, a couple of armor mods which change the look without changing stats, and so on. I also completed the game at least twice on a vanilla install. I will cheat in those games -- money, health potions, soul gems. I draw the line there; I won't add weapons or armor.

Now, I've come to DA:O and have rediscovered the joys of multiple mods. Do I download mods to make things easier? No, it's mostly eye candy. I did download a crossbow fix, a dialogue patch, and a couple of other things along those lines. But that's pretty much it. I may look at armor mods to see about something in medium, but nothing uber.

Having said all that, I will now say that while I'm interested in what mods you may be running and why, I couldn't care less about the fact that you are running them. If they make the game easier by added super weapons or armor, then they're cheats, plain and simple. But, cheating in a single-player game is about fun, not trying to beat out another player with an unfair advantage. I'm never going to do a solo run on Nightmare, as I'm not the least bit interested in making things that difficult for myself. Yes, you may finish with ease and grace, but I wouldn't. Nor do I care about your Achievements except in a polite, academic way. "Oh, I see you took the other side in that business. How did it go?" And truth be told, when was the last time you looked at a stranger's achievements list? I've only had about 50 profile views, and I have no idea if any of them looked at my Achievements. I use Achievements for my own personal score keeping. I'd really like to unlock Traveler, for example. And I do like seeing those neat rows of badges at the bottom of my game profile screen, again for purely personal reasons.

A single-player game is between you and your computer. If you chose to make a competition out of some pretty little baubles, then that's your problem, not mine. My suggestion would be that you learn to look to yourself to measure the validity of what you've accomplished rather than worrying about whether or not the world is fair. It isn't, you know, and it never has been. Kudos to those of you who love to set yourselves the most difficult challenge possible and win. I guess the rest of us will have to settle for laurel wreaths. 

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 10 mars 2010 - 01:55 .

[CybAnt1]

IMHO, that the achievement should NOT be taken away, but the player should tell the online players that  "Hey, I used such and such, thus I saved a lot of time and thus I did not do it  it the hard way."   In that way, when other online players compare statistics, achievement , equipment, etc  can compare apples to apples  Is that so hard to do?   

No, in fact it's quite simple: ask them. "I noticed on your profile you finished Deep Roads in 1 hour. Did you use a guide? Did you use mods? Did you use the cheat console? Did your cousin give you help in beating Branka?" 

Now ... my point being, it seems some want the achievements screen to somehow display the fact that the person used mods. Really? Should it tell you anything if they used the Nicer Looking Armor mod? It seems you want it only indicated if they used gameplay mods. OK. What if they used the Longer Potions Cooldown mod? Then if anything maybe that modder deserves it more than you. No? 

Should that screen list every possible advantage they gave themselves? "Yes, I killed Boss A in Dungeon Z in one try, but it was because I read DukeOfEarl's Shapeshifting Guide and it made it easy." 

Can you not get my point that there's no point in there being any info on that screen, because there would have to be too much info on that screen? If you're wondering how they got their achievements, ask them. There's a PM system here, right? 

This is the best possible solution to what you see as a dilemma. 

Of course, just like the characters in the game, you can't know for sure if they're telling the truth. But you seem to want to make the screen reveal that truth to you, and I still say it's pointless. 

[k9medusa]

I see your point --- I guess I have to assumed the negative not the positive on this one -- everybody cheats (I most likely do that also when X time I played the game) Therefore, the data is not valid In nwn1, I have made my chars into demi-gods via the debug console commands -- 66 in every stat after like the 10th time I beat nwn1:hotu I guess I am just a statistical pureness. Thanks for the advise, CybAnt1

[Ravenfeeder]

Eurypterid wrote...
On a slightly side note, I've always found it odd that people state they've 'beaten' an RPG. I've never really thought of it that way, and find it jarring when i read it. I always considered it 'completing' the game as opposed to 'beating' it. Perhaps that's where the disconnect in viewing the use of mods lies.

This.  Since the game specifically gets you to the end, how can you 'beat it'.  It has done exactly what it was meant to do.  There are no 'winners' or 'losers', there are just players.

[Khalara]

:sigh: I'll just say this, though it's probably been said before... Why do so many people care how I play a game? It has no effect on how others play their games, so why is this even an issue? If it were an MMO or even a multiplayer LAN based game, then I could understand the issue about mods. But this isn't one of those, so if I decide to use a mod, no matter what for, that is my business and no one elses.

[Ravenfeeder]

I can't understand the hate for mods (except from console players who can't use them). The game is full of compromises and is missing some content originally thought of by the designers due to time and money constraints. Why wouldn't you want a whole load of extra content or functionality, all of which is totally optional so that you can customise your experience.



Bioware aren't gods. They have some very talented people (very, very talented writing team), but many modders are also very talented and often able to put in the time that the designers can't. To disparage modders as 'cheaters' is unfair and insulting. It is still very early days in modding DA and I fully expect some absolutely fantastic stuff to come out of it.

[k9medusa]

We don't hate mods, that is one of the main reasons that I love this game so. The real debate is how mods effect what one sees on the online profiles and if online profiles are good or bad. Cheating is not evil -- everybody does it -- we are just debating how it affects the numbers that other people may see. I hope the best for this game willing help anyway I can -- either by the forum or helping some modders

[Realmzmaster]

@Khalara,

Actually it would not be an issue if achievements were not uploaded. Some gamers (I do not) care about how the achievement was achieved. As I said in previous posts it comes down to bragging rights. I know it may sound silly, but some gamers float their boat that way. Some gamers see getting and comparing achievements as a competition.

They see others with the same achievements and wonder did they use a mod to get that achievement or did they do it the old fashion way and earned it.



Sloth of Doom is simply calling out gamers who say you cannot cheat in a single player game. Of course you can cheat. You are simply cheating the system not other gamers.

Any gameplay (for better or worse) mod that is contray to the developers intention can be viewed as a cheat.

My view is if it enhances your fun then mod away.

[Realmzmaster]

@Ravenfeeder,

No one is disparging modders. No one is calling mod creators cheaters. If you want to enhance your game experience that is your right. But when gamers take advantage of bugs (exploits) in the system or use mods to change the gameplay (for better or worse) you are cheating the system. Since it only affects your game it should not matter.

But since achievements are uploaded online for the world to see it why it matters to some gamers.

[Ravenfeeder]

I understand where you are coming from, although I have no use for Achievements personally. This is the first game I've seen with them in and they add nothing to the game. Online profiles I care little about, although it is sometimes amusing to see what other people's full portrait looks like and what items they are using.

My comment was more aimed at the OP who seemed to be disparaging all mods and modders for not doing everything in the manner exactly prescribed by the designers, without taking into account that the game itself does not operate exactly as the designers wanted due to time and budget constraints.