140 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

@Ravenfeeder,

I am like you. This is the first game I have played that have achievements. You are correct they add nothing to the game. It is a nice little gimmick that Bioware threw in there I think to give gamers incentive for more playthroughs. I guess Bioware borrowed the idea from MMO like WOW. I guess gamers can look at their online profile and see all the eye candy of achievements.

Gamers like competition. Putting achievements up gives them something else about which to compete.

[k9medusa]

Spore (from EA) have the same idea also

[soteria]

Bah. The achievements in this game are as meaningless as they are in WoW. Yes, starting with recent versions, WoW will award you all sorts of "achievements".



You get all kinds of cool-sounding "awards". Are they for anything other than showing to your friends or random strangers browsing your profile? Do they actually matter in any concrete way to the game. Get you extra gold, or a Shetland Pony? No.



It's kind of like the joke they have at most corporate offices. Give people lots of meaningless position titles, like "Section Head of the Coffee Procurement Department". Doesn't matter if that doesn't mean, actually, jack ****, and isn't an actual promotion, therefore means nothing. People like being "awarded" all kinds of meaningless "honors" and "awards" just because it sounds cool, but means nothing.

Your logic is flawed. Climbing a mountain is also an achievement with no physical benefits or rewards, but you'd be stupid to say climbing a mountain isn't a sort of an achievement. Now, the greatness of the achievement is based on the size of the mountain, and likewise the greatness of an achievement in a video game is based on the difficulty involved.



None of the ones in DA:O are worth much because none of them are particularly hard. Some of the ones in online games are actually quite difficult. Maybe you need some sort of "concrete" reward for you to care about achievements, but maybe you also aren't the type to go climb a mountain because it's there. Saying an achievement means nothing because there's no concrete reward is pretty shortsighted.

[k9medusa]

achievements are goals and with out goals, life suck and what is the purpose of life then? (Video game chars need something to do, it is no fun to have them run around in blank area, waving their hands for hours on end or just stand there and pick their noses)

Modifié par k9medusa, 10 mars 2010 - 06:00 .

[CybAnt1]

None of the ones in DA:O are worth much because none of them are particularly hard.  

Heck. Some of them are unavoidable. Unless you quit before finishing your origin, everybody gets at least one origin unlocked achievement. 

And, BTW, when you realize that Morrigan would jump into the sack with a male GW that looked & sounded like Gilbert Goddfried (sorry that's verging on spoiler), the "Witch Gone Wild" one seems to lose a bit of luster, too. 

I don't think my point is specific to the achievements of DAO per se, it's more to the issue of achievements, with online profiles, for single player games. Once you have them you set in motion a silly argument - the very silly argument we're having right now - which is whether they were "earned" or not. If you're not getting what I'm saying, it comes down to something nobody could ever agree on, which is what constitutes "hard" enough "work" to get an "achievement" in a video game. It only gets sillier when you have "achievements" for action games, because in many cases those come down to who can twitch faster. 

Here's the deal. I can relish in my achievements without having them specifically displayed - either for me, personally, or especially for others. Let me see if I can be clear. Yes, I consider slaying the Archdemon a massive achievement. It's the ultimate one, of course, but I'll use it as my example. I can relish in that achievement without me having to be awarded an icon that says "Archdemon Slain!" with a pretty dead dragon icon underneath it. Even moreso without having that icon added to a profile everyone else can see. I can enjoy exploring the entire game world without having to be awarded the "explorer" achievement. I can enjoy trying out every romance in the game without being awarded the "romanced everybody" achievment. 

I'm not saying I don't relish in having accomplished things in games. There are definite moments where I step back and enjoy having done something significant, even if it's only in a fictional world, and I know tomorrow I have to go back to work being a schlep. What I don't like about this "achievement" business is that somehow now we have to give people extra motivation by giving them essentially meaningless "awards" for something they should relish in doing for its own sake. Better yet, let other people see them, so they can establish bragging rights! 

Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for climbing Everest for its own sake. If there was a virtual Mt. Everest in this virtual world, I would go climb it to go see what was at the top, even if it didn't award XP, gold, or a Shetland pony. What I don't get is this idea that now gives me a "Climbed Virtual Mt. Everest!" award that now goes on my profile for everybody else to browse. It's like giving this action a benefit ... that's a non benefit. And it just seems silly. 

[k9medusa]

I can and do relish achievements with or with out those little nice icons, but Bioware has given us some ideas to work from in terms of goals. I have more goals then just those icons, but they still nice to have.

[bzombo]

Eurypterid wrote...

bzombo wrote...
cheating is  defined word. just because you change the meaning of cheating for yourself doesn't change the fact that you are cheating. again, it means nothing that you're cheating in a single player game, but to sit here and try to tell us you're not is silly.

IMO, what's silly is pointing to the definition of the word 'cheat' and applying it to a game that provides a toolset as part of the package, and allows - even encourages - modding. So I guess we're going to have to disagree on this one.

respec is cheating. you built a character and are changing him/her to make your character better than it was as you built it.

And starting a new game, using the exact same character build, but choosing those different talents or feats that you decide you want is different how, other than the fact it takes you much more time? So is each subsequent run of the game cheating?

if respec was in origins that would be different, but it is not. anyone that uses awakening as an excuse is silly. it's in awakening and not origins, plus you have to buy it, not install it for free. cheat to your heart's content! i have as well, but i don't delude myself. i have things i won't touch for personal gameplay reasons, like respec. but i have used some overpowered items. some i deleted for being too much, but i still did it. my long sword is slightly better than any sword in the game. it looks so cool i keep it. if i had not played through and beaten it as a vanilla game already i'd never touch the thing. i do now because i want new weapons. most of us who use mods are guilty. it means nothing, but don't try and say you're not cheating.

On a slightly side note, I've always found it odd that people state they've 'beaten' an RPG. I've never really thought of it that way, and find it jarring when i read it. I always considered it 'completing' the game as opposed to 'beating' it. Perhaps that's where the disconnect in viewing the use of mods lies.

Just as a point of interest, my first run through the game was vanilla (no mods) most of my second run was as well, until I got fed up with the long cooldown time of the pick pocket skill. Knowing that, does it make a difference to other people with respect to my achievements? They're still the same achievements. They still mean as little or as much as they did before I posted this.

Just to be clear: I have an issue with people that have the seemingly arrogant attitude of pointing the finger and calling 'cheater' at someone that's using a mod or mods, when they know nothing of exactly what that particular player is doing with that mod. Some are obvisouly self explanatory. But others can be used in various ways. Just as an example, I think it's stretching the scope of the definition pretty far to call a mod like the faster cool down for stealing a 'cheat' in any fashion.

Krylo: yes, I'm honestly confused as to why it matters to some people.

i don't care if people cheat in a single player game. heck, i've done it many times. the thing rubbing me the wrong way is people cheating and saying they're not. that's all. i can say i don't cheat in the game either. it doesn't make it true, but i can say it. i just don't understand why people need to dance around and rationalize it. eurypterid: you've already beaten the vanilla game and i assume now use some mods to make things better for future playthroughs. so do i. so do many. it doesn't mean anything. as many have said, the game was made to be played like this. it's just to deny it makes no sense to me.

[Eurypterid]

To deny what? That I'm using mods? I don't deny that. To deny that I'm 'cheating'? Yeah, I deny that, since I don't believe you can cheat in a single player game, especially one designed with the use of mods as a component of the game itself. But obviously those that think it's 'cheating' aren't going to agree with me nor I with them, so this aspect of the discussion is dead in the water.

Modifié par Eurypterid, 10 mars 2010 - 06:49 .

[soteria]

Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for climbing Everest for its own sake. If there was a virtual Mt. Everest in this virtual world, I would go climb it to go see what was at the top, even if it didn't award XP, gold, or a Shetland pony. What I don't get is this idea that now gives me a "Climbed Virtual Mt. Everest!" award that now goes on my profile for everybody else to browse. It's like giving this action a benefit ... that's a non benefit. And it just seems silly.

So... getting the t-shirt is silly? That's really all achievements are--"Been there, done that, and I have the t-shirt to prove it." I don't think it's your place to tell people their "I climbed Mt St Helens" t-shirt is silly, but whatever.

[CybAnt1]

Have the T shirt. I have T shirts that commemorate places I've visited, too.



However, if having the T shirt meant that when I went various places wearing it, it would start an argument over whether I visited that place by airplane, train, or cruise ship, and whether the guy who visited the place with a tour guide had "less" right to the shirt than me for visiting it solely on my own, **then I wouldn't wear it.**



IF YOU GET THIS POINT, YOU'LL SEE WHY I DISLIKE (video game) ACHIEVEMENTS, they start pointless arguments, exactly like the one we're having.

[bzombo]

Eurypterid wrote...

To deny what? That I'm using mods? I don't deny that. To deny that I'm 'cheating'? Yeah, I deny that, since I don't believe you can cheat in a single player game, especially one designed with the use of mods as a component of the game itself. But obviously those that think it's 'cheating' aren't going to agree with me nor I with them, so this aspect of the discussion is dead in the water.

about cheating, of course. you already admitted to using mods. we just look at this comepletely different. you can cheat at solitaire by not following the rules, you can cheat at crossword puzzles by looking at the answers, and you can cheat with a rubik's cube by peeling off the colors and rearranging them so all colors are together again. it's all cheating, but who cares since it doesn't affect anyone but yourself. so, how is cheating in a single player game any different? mod away. i think mods are great! it's just flat out not true to say it's not cheating if you use a mod that makes the game easier somehow. adding eye colors, hair colors, and nude bodies would not constitute cheating. the whol achievement thing is overboard too. i could care less about achievements or how someone gets them. the only good achievements are to me is to remind me i did something down the line that i may not remember from my first playthrough. they have very little use. i think it's a nice extra, but it means nothing to my enjoyment of the game.

[Realmzmaster]

It comes down to a matter of perception.

It is being said you cannot cheat in a single player game. So by that definition it is ok if I put a black nine on a black ten in solitarie as long as I am having fun. Even if it goes totally against the rules as laided out by Hoyle.

But if someone else comes by and sees the person playing solitarie, the person will point out that the person broke the rules and is playing wrong. If the person playing chooses not to correct the situation the person watching will assume that the person playing is either cheating or does not know the rules.

Now the person playing would have to inform the person watching that he/she is playing by their own modification of the rules and not the generally accepted form of play.

Fine then by their own modified rules they are not cheating.

The same applies to mods. The modder is playing by their own defined set of rules therefore they are not cheating. But anyone else looking from the outside would say they are cheating because they are changing the system and gameplay that was esablished by the developer to suit them.

So basically a matter of perception.

So you cannot cheat in a single player game because the player is changing the rules to suit themselves. It will simply appear to others outside their rule set that they are cheating the system.

I guess the same can be said of Monopoly (even though it is a multi player game). Most people play with house rules as long as everyone agrees. Now if a player new to your group sits down to play all the house rules must be specified before the game starts otherwise you can only play the game as intended by the developer.

You cannot wait until the middle of the game and tell someone well that is the house rule. It will be perceived that you are trying to cheat.

The same as giving advice on the form. You would have to tell the person you are giving advice to the mods that you are using otherwise the advice could be useless.



Gamers have a right to modify or not modify their games. Cheating or not cheating appears to boil down to a matter of perception.

[Sabriana]

This is a ridiculous argument. I use mods. Happily. Gladly. They enhance my game, for me. You want my achievements taken/marked/whatever, go right ahead. I don't ever play on-line. It's my game, and I play it for myself, the way I enjoy it the most. The achievements are nothing to me. I have 2 (I think, I never look) listed in my profile, but obviously I have far more, seeing that I've played through several times. I don't want them listed. I don't give a rassafrassin frek about them.

Do I have goals? Darn tooting I do. In real life. Not in a video game that is supposed to take me out of RL for a while.

There are achievements I will never unlock, because it doesn't suit my RPing. Ever. Do I care? No. Take them out, and I wouldn't even notice. I have no clue what my achievements are. I find them annoying to pop up in the middle of game-play. If you want to jerk my concentration away from the in-game happenings, at least make it worth my while.

[k9medusa]

I starting to find it funny how people get so upset achievements and their profiles. I like to read everything in a good, find all codecs, etc Here again, not everyone is like me. Everyone has gaols in video games -- some of them can be really simple -- I wanna to beat X this much of bad guys or more complex like -- I want to try out every spell combos or beat / finish the game or such and such area / level. Also, some goals are short terms -- one playing session or others can be long term -- muti - playing sessions. See everyone have some type of gaol or they will be playing the game.

[rhiain]

I see the achievements in DAO as a way to encourage players to experiment with more plot options. I never would have seen them as a source of bragging rights until I saw this thread.



Any game in which you can change the difficulty level for individual fights is more about the story/enjoyment than meeting arbitrary challenges, IMHO (although, of course, if an individual gamer gets his/her enjoyment from meeting arbitrary challenges.....).

[booke63]

I'm late as usual to the interesting threads.



I would say using a mod of the cosmetic kind or even of the gameplay changing kind CANNOT be considered a cheat--except in this one case. If you purchased DAO, didn't patch it, or add DLC, or add in any expansions, then I think it's fair to say anyone who uses a mod is cheating--at least the gameplay changing mods certainly. You're changing the given rules of the game to which you tacitly agreed when you purchased the game, and that in the narrowest sense of "cheat" you are cheating. Now usually cheating is understood in a broader sense where cheating is done for some benefit or advantage, and it is certainly difficult to see who or what is cheated by a mod user, but in the narrow sense, a mod user under the circumstances I set forth, is a cheater.



Why am I not a cheater when I use mods? It's because I have patched the game, I have added in DLC, and I will add in the expansion. And I have used the Toolset (or its fruits more precisely). The toolset is legit, and it was released for all of us to use in the DAO game just as DLC and expansions are. The "rules" of the game were designed to be changed by the player community--so intended by Bioware.



I can't see where I'm a cheater in even the narrowest sense of "cheater" much less the broader sense.



Plus if you add in what is my primary goal in playing a video game--which is FUN--and if a mod makes a game MORE fun, then may I say I'm cheating myself (of maximum fun) if I don't use a mod?