25 réponses à ce sujet

[TheUnusualSuspect]

I've completed about 6 play-throughs now.  First on veteran (soldier), second on hardcore (adept), and the rest as NG+ Insanity (Adept, Soldier, Infiltrator, Engineer).

The two classes I've yet to try are Vanguard and Sentinel.

Please comment only if you've actually done an NG+ Insanity run.  I see a number of comments in other threads about class abilities that, IMO, looks like the player has not actually played NG+ Insanity.

Mind you, NG+ Insanity is really only a pain up until you get past Horizon, and after that one you buy/find the applicable upgrades, it's almost even with a regular Insanity new-game run.

Am sure it's been asked a dozen times, but am interested to hear opinions.  For me, personally, I'd rank them in terms of strongest to weakest, and I guess that this also needs to keep in mind using the squad mates abilities in good synergy with Shep's class.

- Infiltrator  (with Widow + Warp Ammo) - absolutely super-powered when teamed with Samara+Miranda.  Pre-Samara, most maps are armor+health based, and Miranda + Mordin kick butt before Horizon.

- Engineer (with Sniper + Dominate) - Crazy good crowd control and insane power damage dealing against everything but barriers (use squadmates for that).

- Adept (with assault rifle + Energy Drain) - Should've chosen sniper, but too late for that choice with the NG+ import I used.  Good crowd control (wide singularity) and defense stripper.  A little weak in damage dealing potention compared to others

- Soldier (Revenant + Dominate) - Surprisingly, while easy enough and dealing lots of weapon damage, with no tactical crowd-control and no ability to target people around cover, I found this class to be the least engaging and fun, and tended to be more frustrating and repetitive.

Sentinel looks to me like it'd slot in between Adept and Soldier, but I could be wrong.

Vanguard just looks like the poor kid on the block, but I've not tried it.  Is it as weak as it looks on paper, what with charging into the middle of enemies that will take all of 2 secs (on NG+ Insanity) to strip your defences and kill you?  Does the charge ability do anything to opponents with added defences?

I guess I should just try it for myself.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 08 mars 2010 - 04:01 .

[Comrade Bork]

I have only done one NG+ insanity run. It was my first, and it was on a soldier. I didn't find it to be terribly difficult. The trouble spots were Horizon (not the Praetorian, but the fight leading up to it), and the Collector Ship platforms (just had to keep at it, took me 3 tries to get it). The only way I got past Horizon was accidentally stumbling on a glitch where the Collectors wouldn't fire at my team and I if we didn't cross an invisible line. I just put my team right on the line, so they fired at the harbinger, and I continuously usedconcussive shot on him until he died (ran out of ammo).

[Missouri Tigers]

I've only done it as a Sentinel.  I found it extremely easy.  I had AP Ammo as the bonus talent.  Tech Armor always kept me protected and I mostly used Miranda and Jacob until I got Thane.  I was a level 30 so I THINK (I'm not sure exactly) I had:

Level 3 Throw
Heavy Warp
Power Armor
Overload
Level Zero Cryo Blast
Guardian 
Level 3 AP Ammo

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Comrade Bork wrote...

I have only done one NG+ insanity run. It was my first, and it was on a soldier. I didn't find it to be terribly difficult. The trouble spots were Horizon (not the Praetorian, but the fight leading up to it), and the Collector Ship platforms (just had to keep at it, took me 3 tries to get it). The only way I got past Horizon was accidentally stumbling on a glitch where the Collectors wouldn't fire at my team and I if we didn't cross an invisible line. I just put my team right on the line, so they fired at the harbinger, and I continuously usedconcussive shot on him until he died (ran out of ammo).

Yes, thanks for reminding me.  That was the most difficult thing about the Soldier class was the continual ammo management, as you didn't have any powers to fall back onto to deal damage when ammo got tight.  I do admit that it was my first NG+ run, and so I really was quite a noob to it and not using my squadmates very effectively, so perhaps I'm remembering the experience with whatever you would call the opposite of rose-tinted-glasses.

I never found that "line" you're talking about though.

Yes, the soldier class was easy enough to get through game with, it just felt like tedious work.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 08 mars 2010 - 03:51 .

[Comrade Bork]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Comrade Bork wrote...

I have only done one NG+ insanity run. It was my first, and it was on a soldier. I didn't find it to be terribly difficult. The trouble spots were Horizon (not the Praetorian, but the fight leading up to it), and the Collector Ship platforms (just had to keep at it, took me 3 tries to get it). The only way I got past Horizon was accidentally stumbling on a glitch where the Collectors wouldn't fire at my team and I if we didn't cross an invisible line. I just put my team right on the line, so they fired at the harbinger, and I continuously usedconcussive shot on him until he died (ran out of ammo).

Yes, thanks for reminding me.  That was the most difficult thing about the Soldier class was the continual ammo management, as you didn't have any powers to fall back onto to deal damage when ammo got tight.  I do admit that it was my first NG+ run, and so I really was quite a noob to it and not using my squadmates very effectively, so perhaps I'm remembering the experience with whatever you would call the opposite of rose-tinted-glasses.

I never found that "line" you're talking about though.

If you are at the spot where you first enter the square, looking towards the center: it is the corner to the far upper left. I had to run there for cover, and figured out they refused to follow. I then poked my head out, and they weren't firing. I then followed the building until I reached the line (they will fire at you when you reach it).

Modifié par Comrade Bork, 08 mars 2010 - 03:54 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Comrade Bork wrote...

If you are at the spot where you first enter the square, looking towards the center: it is the corner to the far upper left. I had to run there for cover, and figured out they refused to follow. I then poked my head out, and they weren't firing. I then followed the building until I reached the line (they will fire at you when you reach it).

Thanks for the tip!

[Comrade Bork]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
Thanks for the tip!

Happy to help.

[Cosmicinator]

I've done One NG+ Insanity playthrough as a Sentinel, and I am half-way through my soldier run.

On my Sentinel playthrough I had Assault Rifles (Vindicator all the way through), and used Warp ammo. With my Tech Armour fully upgraded to Power Armour, and my Sentinel specialized as a Guardian, I expected things to be hard, but manageable.

But it was really just Hardcore all over again, the only time I got stuck was on Korlus, but even then I just had to move really slowly through the battle to manage it. I breezed through the Collector Ship, and all other missions...

And although it was really easy, the experience couldn't have been more enjoyable. 

[Gaidren]

I just did Horizon last night on NG+ Insanity as an Infiltrator, and it felt haaaaard. Scions felt like they were 10 feet tall and bulletproof, and Harbringer took forever to kill.



I managed it without too many deaths, but I had to cloak and move to different locations a LOT to avoid getting exposed to Scion/Harbringer fire. Didn't help that my squad mates found ways to die amazingly fast (never had that much trouble with squad deaths on regular Horizon Insanity).



On a side note, am I the only Infiltrator in the world who prefers the Viper to the Widow? I find the playstyle of Incinerate/Energy Drain/Reave followed be a few quick Viper shots in between power cooldowns to be more fun/effective than spamming Cloak + Widow shots. I run out of ammo soooo fast with the Widow too, where as Viper ammo lasts a while and I get the Vindicator as a back-up since I didn't take the Widow. Ironically on my Soldier I love the Widow, and choose Widow/Vindicator over Viper/Revenant. Am I just weird?

[sinosleep]

Have you checked out the giant stickied vanguard thread? I can not believe that after all that, all the vids, and everything else, vanguard misinformation gets spread almost as much as it did before. Half the people making vids play on NG +, I prefer a regular new game, but have also played NG + and it's really NOT that much harder. It's more irritating than anything else. You can still charge around like mad if you want to.

Modifié par sinosleep, 08 mars 2010 - 06:24 .

[Comrade Bork]

I just remembered the hardest part of the entire game was actually during Garrus's recruitment mission. The fight right before he gets wiped by the gunship. It was a pain in the butt to keep the idiot alive long enough. I had to keep my teammates in the room opposite of me to keep the rocket/sniper guys out of there.

Modifié par Comrade Bork, 09 mars 2010 - 02:14 .

[OneBadAssMother]

My soldier with widow on insanity using heightened adrenaline rush/commando/warp ammo/upgrades, ends up killing everything with 1-3 headshots, even harbinger drops in 2 (1 for barrier, 1 for armor), scions drop in 3 headshots. I would say it's the easiest class.



However I have no idea how I would finish an insanity playthrough without a sniper rifle. I gave up on Vanguard myself, have no idea how people manage it.

[SmilingMirror]

I think we should do NG+ runs without any upgrades.

[OneBadAssMother]

^ That would effectively make it 3-6 headshots to kill anyone with a widow (no +50% headshot damange +50% sniper rifle damage)

[TheUnusualSuspect]

sinosleep wrote...

Have you checked out the giant stickied vanguard thread? I can not believe that after all that, all the vids, and everything else, vanguard misinformation gets spread almost as much as it did before. Half the people making vids play on NG +, I prefer a regular new game, but have also played NG + and it's really NOT that much harder. It's more irritating than anything else. You can still charge around like mad if you want to.

I wouldn't say I was misinformed or spreading misinformation.  I've not really done any research on Vanguards until now.  More ignorant of what they can do.  I was looking around a bit more today and found some Vanguard Insanity vids, and yeah, overall I can see now how the charge + insta-shot-kill thing works, so long as you've got some cover to withdraw to reasonably soon in case other enemies are around, so it looks more like an up-close-and-personal soldier, and the barrier recharge really helps out.

Appreciate the feedback guys.  Went back and played Infiltrator a bit, and looked at some engineer vids as well, and reckon that I'd elevate Engineer above Infiltrator for sheer dominance.

Sorry, I really hadn't done a lot of research before this, and I was coming in with a fairly open mind.  Thanks.

[sinosleep]

Sorry if I was a bit over the top in my reply, but vanguards have had it rough on these forums since jump.

[Frosty Ananth]

Even after doing an Insanity Vanguard playthrough, complete with optimal Inferno, Squad Cryo, Heavy Charge, Champion, and Reave, I still maintain it's not a particularly fun class. No matter how "thrilling" and "fast" it is to charge a bunch of dudes and shotgun them down, it just doesn't have that sense of control and satisfaction other classes give me.

On one hand, you're right. For a good amount of people, they are judging the Vanguard before it blossoms. But at the same time, there is also a good group of people for whom it's just not a satisfying class. It's all "high risk" and no "high reward". Even when everything goes right, it just feels like setting up Singularity traps or making devastating headshots would've gone just as well but been a hell of a lot more safe, in control, and satisfying.

Spending the entire fight with intermittent veins without a sense of control isn't particularly fun.

Modifié par Frosty Ananth, 09 mars 2010 - 05:32 .

[sinosleep]

I don't take issue with someone saying the class isn't fun, or isn't their style, that's all subjective. Implying they are weak though? That I take issue with.

[Arde5643]

Yeah, weak vanguard is a really weird statement.

Weak in the beginning, I can give you that. Weak at middle or end levels? Wha?

[Spyndel]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...


Mind you, NG+ Insanity is really only a pain up until you get past Horizon, and after that one you buy/find the applicable upgrades, it's almost even with a regular Insanity new-game run.

Don't kid yourself.

After horizon, when you get the bulk of the upgrades, it's *easier* than a normal inanity run, not "almost even".   Because at that point you have the bulk of important upgrades *AND* a full weapon roster and maxed powers earlier in the game than you would normally have it.

1st third of NG+ =Harder than normal insanity

2nd third of NG+ = Easier than normal Insanity

Last third of NG+ =Normal insanity.

Playing a NG+ on inansity only demonstrates a willingness to play a poorly implimented game mode, not a deliberately designed increase in challenge.

Modifié par Spyndel, 09 mars 2010 - 06:45 .

[Arde5643]

well, it is without doubt poorly implemented - WTF with no paragon/renegade bonus and no upgrades at all?!?

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Spyndel wrote...

Don't kid yourself.

After horizon, when you get the bulk of the upgrades, it's *easier* than a normal inanity run, not "almost even".   Because at that point you have the bulk of important upgrades *AND* a full weapon roster and maxed powers earlier in the game than you would normally have it.

1st third of NG+ =Harder than inansity

2nd third of NG+ = Easier than Insanity

Last third of NG+ =Normal insanity.

Playing a NG+ on inansity only demonstrates a willingness to play a poorly implimented game mode, not a deliberately designed increase in challenge.

Wow.  Fairly aggressive attitude there.  Angry at something?

When you play NG insanity, the enemies are scaled to your level and availability of upgrades at the various phases of the game.  Since you get most upgrades after Horizon, NG+ is basically no different to NG the whole way through after that.

TBH - *I* personally didn't find much difference after Horizon, for either NG+ or NG Insanity.  NG Insanity after Horizon is basically a breeze (as it is before Horizon).  Your experience may have been different, but there's no need to be so aggressive about disagreeing.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 09 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[Spyndel]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

Don't kid yourself.

After horizon, when you get the bulk of the upgrades, it's *easier* than a normal inanity run, not "almost even".   Because at that point you have the bulk of important upgrades *AND* a full weapon roster and maxed powers earlier in the game than you would normally have it.

1st third of NG+ =Harder than inansity

2nd third of NG+ = Easier than Insanity

Last third of NG+ =Normal insanity.

Playing a NG+ on inansity only demonstrates a willingness to play a poorly implimented game mode, not a deliberately designed increase in challenge.

Wow.  Fairly aggressive attitude there.  Angry at something?

When you play regular insanity, the enemies are scaled to your level and availability of upgrades at the various phases of the game.  Since you get most upgrades after Horizon, it's basically no different the whole way through after that.

TBH - *I* personally didn't find much difference after Horizon, for either NG+ or NG Insanity.  Your experience may have been different, but there's no need to be so aggressive about disagreeing.

I don't feel I was agressive, but your original post made something of "thing" about people who dont play "NG+" not to respond, the implication being that NG+ was somehow superior, or more challenging.  It isn't overall.  Its just poorly balanced.

Once you get the bulk of the upgrades, the game goes from being slightly harder, to slightly *easier*, because then you have the important upgrades *and* powers and weapons you wouldnt normally in insanity mode at that point, until late in the game, when it is *exactly the same*..  So it's not really something worth putting on airs about. 

Modifié par Spyndel, 09 mars 2010 - 06:57 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Spyndel wrote...

I don't feel I was agressive, but your original post made something of "thing" about people who dont play "NG+" not to respond, the implication being that NG+ was somehow superior, or more challenging.  It isn't overall.  Its just poorly balanced.

Once you get the bulk of the upgrades, the game goes from being slightly harder, to slightly *easier*, because then you have the important upgrades *and* powers and weapons you wouldnt normally in insanity mode at that point, until late in the game, when it is *exactly the same*..  So it's not really something worth putting on airs about. 

Sorry, I'm still not sure I understand your problem.  Is the game harder before Horizon or not on NG+?
For you, is NG+ significantly harder than NG before Horizon on than it is easier after Horizon?

There's no "airs" about it at all.  Point-fact is that NG+ Insanity pre-Horizon is about as difficult as the game gets.  Agreed or not?  If so, then that's what I was asking about.  I wasn't putting down people who haven't played NG+, just that for me, I don't particularly find NG that challenging, and after Horizon, it's fairly breezy on either NG/NG+.  If you've got a problem with that, that's purely your issue and you've read WAY too much into what was said in the opening post.

if you want to argue about whether post-Horizon on NG/NG+ is harder/easier, and whether it's poorly implemented, go start your own thread and have a whinge there.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 09 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[Spyndel]

Ok, lets see if I can clear it up for you, since you seem to be having a bit of a snit about it for some reason.

You said this:

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...


Please comment only if you've actually done an NG+ Insanity run.  I see a number of comments in other threads about class abilities that, IMO, looks like the player has not actually played NG+ Insanity.

Implication: Dont comment if you play insanity, because I play  a  "Harder" game than you.

Then you said:

TheUnusualSuspect wrote..

Mind you, NG+ Insanity is really only a pain up until you get past Horizon, and after that one you buy/find the applicable upgrades, it's almost even with a regular Insanity new-game run.

At which point I corrected you.  It's not "almost even".  Its *easier* than an insanity new game run after that point, because you have the important upgrades *AND* your abilities are now fully maxed, with all the top tier weapons in the game, earlier than you would have any of that on a regular insanity game.  Until the late part of the game when it is exactly the same as a new Insanity game.   Not more challenging overall ...just poorly conceived.

Many people, including some of the best players on the board, dont play NG+insanity, because the poor balance curve is more annoying than it is challenging, and they miss out on most of the rewards system from leveling.  So you see, overall, its probably not something worth making a "dont answer this if you arent as elite as me from playing on NG+" post.


I dont know why you decided to take issue with my post and make it a thing, but really...take a pill.

Modifié par Spyndel, 09 mars 2010 - 08:03 .