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[jlb524]

screwoffreg wrote...

I think I read an interview where Tali was INTENDED to be an ME 1 romance, but developers thought no one would like an alien with chicken feet and three fingers. Turns out our evolutionary desire for "child bearing hips" actually transfers over to videogames as well, lmao.

That has nothing to do with the fact that there was absolutely no Tali romantic content, not even a hint in ME1.  She never gives Shepard a 'look'.  She never stumbles over her words when talking to Shep (like she does in the ME2 romance).  Now, all of a sudden it's 'I think you're hot Shepard!!'.

Compare this with Samara.  There are hints of her interest in Shepard in ME2 so it would seem natural if she's available for a romance in ME3.  I think this would be a well-paced romance if it happens...the best out of all of them.

[Raphael diSanto]

I think people are talking cross-purpose here.

Taking Tali in ME2 and Liara in ME1 as examples:

1. The length of time it takes Liara to admit she feels a connection in ME1 is very fast. However, once she does, there's progression dialogues where you can see that connection growing.
2. The length of time it takes Tali to admit she wants you in ME2 is very long. But once there, there's no progression; after the loyalty mission, she's right there with "I like you and I'm trying to figure out how to have sex with you without dying."

The people complaining about ME1 pacing are complaining that the LI's announce interest too soon.

The people complaining about ME2 pacing are complaining that once announced, the LI's jump straight to the sex.

Both complaints are valid, because they're about completely different things.

The only exception to this is Miranda's ME2 romance, because over the course of the game, you -do- see her character and personality change slowly as she warms up to dudeShep.

That is what they should have done for the other ME2 LI's - Allowed us to build the relationship from the instant we got them. The admittance of a mutual attraction is well paced. But there should have been more "stuff" before that, along the lines of Miranda's sideways glances and meaningful pauses that say to you "I think Miranda's starting to like Shepard."

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 08 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[contown]

Are you kidding me? This topic has to be a joke. Do you really think Liara's romance in ME1 was well-paced? One conversation and she's already talking about how she's got a thing for you.



And Tali's is too fast-paced? Keep in mind that she was in the first game, too, so she's been with Shepard for a while. I thought Tali's was the only one that actually went at a fairly realistic pace.

[jlb524]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

1. The length of time it takes Liara to admit she feels a connection in ME1 is very fast. However, once she does, there's progression dialogues where you can see that connection growing.
2. The length of time it takes Tali to admit she wants you in ME2 is very long. But once there, there's no progression; after the loyalty mission, she's right there with "I like you and I'm trying to figure out how to have sex with you without dying."

The people complaining about ME1 pacing are complaining that the LI's announce interest too soon.

The people complaining about ME2 pacing are complaining that once announced, the LI's jump straight to the sex.

This is a fair assessment.  I just prefer the pacing of the ME1 version to the ME2 one.

[JeanLuc761]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

1. The length of time it takes Liara to admit she feels a connection in ME1 is very fast. However, once she does, there's progression dialogues where you can see that connection growing.
2. The length of time it takes Tali to admit she wants you in ME2 is very long. But once there, there's no progression; after the loyalty mission, she's right there with "I like you and I'm trying to figure out how to have sex with you without dying."
The people complaining about ME1 pacing are complaining that the LI's announce interest too soon.

The people complaining about ME2 pacing are complaining that once announced, the LI's jump straight to the sex.

You make a good point.  Tali did jump from "I like you Shepard," to "Let's make out!" pretty quick.  I maintain the overall romance development is handled far better in ME2, but both have their faults.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 08 mars 2010 - 06:23 .

[CmdrFenix83]

XX55XX wrote...

This applies especially to Tali's romance. I mean, it's cute and all, but the pacing could have been so much better.

There is very little buildup to the romance, unlike what we experienced with Ashley in ME1. Basically, you come up to Tali, and suddenly she is asking if Shepard could bang her... I admire her drive, but not her complete lack of subtlety. It also seems so unlike her character - she demonstrates her awkwardness when it comes to romance, and it shows, but couldn't she have put off talk about sex until she managed to establish a relationship with Shepard?

Don't know what the rest of you guys think - but BioWare rushed the romances a little bit this time around. They're still good... but they could have been better.

I've seen videos of Jacob's romance, and it appears to be the same thing - Jacob comes up to Shepard and asks for sex, albeit in a more subtle way than Tali did.

Thoughts?

RE: Tali's romance:  Risking your lives together for several months doesn't forge any lasting bonds between you?  You forget they spent the entire first game together.  You saved her life on the Citadel, you saved it on Freedom's Progress, and you saved it again on Haestrom(where you hear her personal logs indicating how she misses Shepard), then to top it off, you cover up her father's mistakes to protect his good name within the fleet(couldn't romance her if you betrayed her there). 

I think she has many, many reasons to like Shepard.  To say that she loves him before she even brings it up isn't a stretch by any means.  Sex isn't brought up until after she mentions how much she feels for Shepard, with Shepard informing her that he feels the same.  It isn't brought up until the next conversation after that, after again confirming that you want to be with her and no one else. 

Considering that Liara tried to jump Shepard after their second conversation.  You claim this was more believable?

[screwoffreg]

Well, by default Liara is close to you as she "mind melds" with you several times throughout the game. She probably poked around in there for some personal stuff other than just the Prothean cipher.

[Lemonwizard]

Tali's romance is being set up for the whole game, even if you're not doing it. It's all over the place. Unquestioningly trusting you on Freedom's Progress, the "I wish Shepard were here" journal, Kelly's comments when she first joins, if you take her to Anderson's office on the citadel she has a little side conversation remembering when you first met and how much you've grown together, how heavily implied it is during her loyalty mission, etc.  It's everywhere.



I did the Tali romance on my first playthrough and was really impressed at how well they executed it....until I played again with a different Romance and saw that none of that dialogue changed. Tali's entire personality in this game seems centered around being attracted to Shepard and trying to work up the courage to say so. I'd say it's TOO well paced, considering that if you say no when she finally does bring it up, the character literally just ends. No more dialogues, she's finished. And her mission interjections are still in that flirty, playful tone of voice half the time anyway.

[jlb524]

screwoffreg wrote...

Well, by default Liara is close to you as she "mind melds" with you several times throughout the game. She probably poked around in there for some personal stuff other than just the Prothean cipher.

Right.  Though, I don't think she was 'snooping' and just saw some other stuff while trying to study the Prothean beacon message. 

[Raphael diSanto]

contown wrote...

Are you kidding me? This topic has to be a joke. Do you really think Liara's romance in ME1 was well-paced? One conversation and she's already talking about how she's got a thing for you.

And Tali's is too fast-paced? Keep in mind that she was in the first game, too, so she's been with Shepard for a while. I thought Tali's was the only one that actually went at a fairly realistic pace.

Not really. Tali goes from 'just friends/ship comrades' to "I want to jump into bed with you" in one conversation. Don't get me wrong. I'm a confirmed Talimancer.. If there were oscars for video game voice acting, I'd be supporting Liz Szroka for one in a heartbeat. But that doesn't change the fact that none of the ME2 romances show any kind of interest until after their loyalty mission and then it's straight to the sex.

Well, except Jacob, and that's only because the writers have femShep coming onto him like a hooker with a deadline.

[Raphael diSanto]

considering that if you say no when she finally does bring it up, the character literally just ends. No more dialogues, she's finished.

Alas, they all do that.

It makes for sad panda

[jlb524]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Well, except Jacob, and that's only because the writers have femShep coming onto him like a hooker with a deadline.

[CmdrFenix83]

kraidy1117 wrote...

I am not putting his romance down.. I am just saying it sounds more like he just wants sex, I only did his romance once so maybe I was not paying attention.

To be fair, he's not the one that brings up sex with Shepard.  That 'romance' starts out with Shepard basically throwing herself at him.  In the end, yes, it's so much more than sex, but you can't blame Garrus for just wanting sex.

[screwoffreg]

jlb524 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Well, by default Liara is close to you as she "mind melds" with you several times throughout the game. She probably poked around in there for some personal stuff other than just the Prothean cipher.

Right.  Though, I don't think she was 'snooping' and just saw some other stuff while trying to study the Prothean beacon message. 

Mind melding is kind of relationship cheating.  You never have to ask what music the person likes or what their favourite food is as you just "know".  Liara had a leg up in the romance department...well maybe two if you count the ending scene before Illos...

I KID, I KID!!!!!

[JeanLuc761]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Tali's romance is being set up for the whole game, even if you're not doing it. It's all over the place. Unquestioningly trusting you on Freedom's Progress, the "I wish Shepard were here" journal, Kelly's comments when she first joins, if you take her to Anderson's office on the citadel she has a little side conversation remembering when you first met and how much you've grown together, how heavily implied it is during her loyalty mission, etc.  It's everywhere.

I did the Tali romance on my first playthrough and was really impressed at how well they executed it....until I played again with a different Romance and saw that none of that dialogue changed. Tali's entire personality in this game seems centered around being attracted to Shepard and trying to work up the courage to say so. I'd say it's TOO well paced, considering that if you say no when she finally does bring it up, the character literally just ends. No more dialogues, she's finished. And her mission interjections are still in that flirty, playful tone of voice half the time anyway.

Given that she acts this way even with a female Shepard (except for the body language bit, so far as I know), I think you can attribute most of that to a very deep friendship that turns into a romance.  I'll admit though, the game felt like it was pushing the player towards romancing Tali.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 08 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[CmdrFenix83]

jlb524 wrote...

xedgorex wrote...

Yeah who wishes you could actually complete the Samara romance

Meee!!!

Maybe in ME3?

On Topic:

The first ME2 romance I saw was Jack's and I thought that it was a little rushed/had bad pacing.  Then I saw the other two female romances....let's just say Jack's doesn't feel all that rushed anymore.

Amusing comment from someone that loved Liara.

[Lemonwizard]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Tali's romance is being set up for the whole game, even if you're not doing it. It's all over the place. Unquestioningly trusting you on Freedom's Progress, the "I wish Shepard were here" journal, Kelly's comments when she first joins, if you take her to Anderson's office on the citadel she has a little side conversation remembering when you first met and how much you've grown together, how heavily implied it is during her loyalty mission, etc.  It's everywhere.

I did the Tali romance on my first playthrough and was really impressed at how well they executed it....until I played again with a different Romance and saw that none of that dialogue changed. Tali's entire personality in this game seems centered around being attracted to Shepard and trying to work up the courage to say so. I'd say it's TOO well paced, considering that if you say no when she finally does bring it up, the character literally just ends. No more dialogues, she's finished. And her mission interjections are still in that flirty, playful tone of voice half the time anyway.

Given that she acts this way even with a female Shepard (except for the body language bit, so far as I know), I think you can attribute most of that to a very deep friendship that turns into a romance.  I'll admit though, the game felt like it was pushing the player towards romancing Tali.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, that it seems like the developers put so much effort into making the Tali romance feel like the natural progression of things that half her dialogue feels unnatural and out of place for female Shepard or male Shepard romancing another character.

[CmdrFenix83]

jlb524 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...


Isn't it also true Liara doesn't immediately object to the idea of a threesome in ME1, it is Ashley who shuts that down?

I don't know, I never played as a dudeShep.  I just think Liara remains silent and has no opinion on it either way.

With either gender of Shepard, Liara certainly doesn't object to it.  Personally, I think Kaiden's an idiot, cause that would have been a fantasy for most men that he walks away from.

[Raphael diSanto]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I am not putting his romance down.. I am just saying it sounds more like he just wants sex, I only did his romance once so maybe I was not paying attention.

To be fair, he's not the one that brings up sex with Shepard.  That 'romance' starts out with Shepard basically throwing herself at him.

I refer to my 'hooker with a deadline' analogy above....

[JeanLuc761]

Lemonwizard wrote...
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, that it seems like the developers put so much effort into making the Tali romance feel like the natural progression of things that half her dialogue feels unnatural and out of place for female Shepard or male Shepard romancing another character.

I mostly agree with you on this.  While one could argue that with FemShep they're simply best friends, with MaleShep it's definitely biased towards romancing Tali.  In that context though, it makes perfect sense that Tali "shuts down" if you reject her.

[screwoffreg]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...


Isn't it also true Liara doesn't immediately object to the idea of a threesome in ME1, it is Ashley who shuts that down?

I don't know, I never played as a dudeShep.  I just think Liara remains silent and has no opinion on it either way.

With either gender of Shepard, Liara certainly doesn't object to it.  Personally, I think Kaiden's an idiot, cause that would have been a fantasy for most men that he walks away from.

That would definately be not only a Captain Kirk, but ole Cap'n Morgan moment for Shepard!

[CmdrFenix83]

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm comparing the romances.  Tali had absolutely no ME1 romantic content.  If there was even hints of it in ME1, I'd agree with you.  Instead, they just threw it on in ME2.

this

ME1: Tali is basically just a walking Quarian encyclopedia.
ME2: Kellys first impression of Tali: she wants you

good pacing?

Think about this a bit.  By the time she's on the ship, you have already:  Saved her on the Citadel two years ago, saved her and whatever Quarians were still alive on Freedom's Progress, and saved her and her friend Kal'Reegar on Haestrom in the middle of Geth space.  The first and last of those situations, Shepard shows up out of no where to pull her butt out of a certain-death situation. 

You also have to note, that even a month after saving the Citadel, despite her pilgrimmage being complete, Tali is still with you on the Normandy when it's attacked by the Collectors.  Jacob confirms this at the very beginning.  The girl has obviously developed feelings for Shepard, either romantic in the case of MaleShep, or sisterly in the case of FemShep.  By the time she's on the SR2, it's not a stretch by any means to say that she's already infatuated with the daring ship Captain that keeps saving her life, and quite attached to him emotionally.

[jlb524]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What hints are you talking about.  My impression was that Samara turned out to be a very strong friend of Shepard.  Like when she tells him that in the future if Shep is in need that he can call her and she will come.
I remember asking about a relationship to her and she seemed flattered abou the question, but she had put relationships behind her. 

If you don't romance another ME2 character, you can ask Samara for 'something more' than friendship.  She admits she also has feelings for you, but ultimitely turns you down.