204 réponses à ce sujet

[UsagiVindaloo]

Darht Jayder wrote...

And Tali's romance isn't the only one that plays out this fast.  However there is a programming constraint on the game because they can only make it so large. 

To be fair, I haven't seen all the romances in the game yet (seen all the scenes in the cabin but not every single dialog leading up to it, I'm afraid). I'm not sure which other ones move quickly. Having said that, a few of them could make sense with the character. Jack, for example, seems to be OBSESSED with sex as it relates to male/female interaction... she can't conceive of why you'd want to talk to her if you don't want to bang her. And as for Garrus... they do start talking about sex right away, but the context seems much more natural, in that it starts off as just a way to ease stress. 

[OverlordNexas]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I will say that, although I dearly loved the Tali romance, I was a bit surprised how quickly it went from, "Let's start a relationship," to "Let's have sex." Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, but it seemed very sudden, with no establishing period, no feeling out the new relationship, etc. I know you knew Tali beforehand, but it was jarring to have sex so immediately injected into discussion of a relationship. How about, you know, just dating for a while, Tali? :-)

Cut her some slack. She's a 24 year old virgin. I think she's been patient enough.

[InvaderErl]

screwoffreg wrote...

In ME 3, you get to hold hands with your LI and walk through the park.

Finally. A chance to be in a park without being attacked for my freakish deformities.

[UsagiVindaloo]

OverlordNexas wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I will say that, although I dearly loved the Tali romance, I was a bit surprised how quickly it went from, "Let's start a relationship," to "Let's have sex." Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, but it seemed very sudden, with no establishing period, no feeling out the new relationship, etc. I know you knew Tali beforehand, but it was jarring to have sex so immediately injected into discussion of a relationship. How about, you know, just dating for a while, Tali? :-)

Cut her some slack. She's a 24 year old virgin. I think she's been patient enough.

Not every virgin is desperate to lose their virginity. I'm 28, still a virgin, and pretty much take the attitude of, "I'll lose it when I lose it." 

Now, if the issue is more that you think Tali is the desperate virgin type (ie eager to have sex), that's something I can sort of see, but it's not necessarily a given. Before seeing the scenes in question, I would have pegged her as a bit more the romantic virgin type (ie wanting to wait until she's with someone truly special, someone who she hopes to be with for a long time). Of course, Shepard could and would count, but I would have expected at least a bit of soul searching and feeling out the relationship first.

Edited because I think my first post was a little antagonistic... sorry! 

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 08 mars 2010 - 09:37 .

[Tooneyman]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I will say that, although I dearly loved the Tali romance, I was a bit surprised how quickly it went from, "Let's start a relationship," to "Let's have sex." Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned, but it seemed very sudden, with no establishing period, no feeling out the new relationship, etc. I know you knew Tali beforehand, but it was jarring to have sex so immediately injected into discussion of a relationship. How about, you know, just dating for a while, Tali? :-)

Cut her some slack. She's a 24 year old virgin. I think she's been patient enough.

Oh dear... I hate this idea that someone who's a virgin at the age of 24 (or whatever) is "overdue" and desperate to lose that virginity and is at the end of their patience etc etc etc.

Speaking as a 28 year old virgin, I don't think patience really comes into it... when the time is right, the time is right. It's not like every virgin is itching to get it on... in fact, a lot of us are more likely to take our time and be sure that everything is right, that the person we're with is someone we love and who loves us in return, etc. That's even assuming the virgin gives a darn about having sex in the first place; plenty people don't. If the argument is that Tali is more the desperate virgin type who can't wait to get it on, then that becomes more of a characterization issue (I'm not sure I buy it, but you might disagree).

AGreed one hundred percent. ITs not about sex. Its about the relationship. period. I didn't get a chance to romance Tali in ME 1. I got the chance to do it in ME 2. I created a character with no relationships in me1 to be with tali in ME 2. It was my first play through and I hate to say this, but it was great!

[Raptr569]

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Raptr569 wrote...

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

This is very true. Perhaps the problem is less that some of them start talking about sex right away, but that the sex talk gets very mixed up in the "feelings" talk. Obviously it's great to have sex with someone you care about, but some of it came across a bit like, "BTW, I kinda like you. But let's not, you know, discuss that at all, it's unimportant compared to the Mighty Shepard in your pants."

Having said that, some of them seem to be paced extremely well. Despite going from psychopath to broken and delicate flower, Jack's romance comes across quite genuine. It makes sense that she gets focused on the sex element, given her attitude towards people, and from what I've seen the conversations start dwelling more on her feelings than the sex. I think Garrus' romance is also well paced, because it starts off as all about the sex and develops into something more.

I don't know enough about Miranda, Jacob and Thane's romances to comment... with Miranda, my issue is more the "YAY LET'S CLEAR THE ENGINE ROOM that, you know, used to be filled with our crew and is now a hollow, empty ghost of what it used to be, reminding us of the people that we've lost. YAY SEX!"

[JeanLuc761]

Raptr569 wrote...

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

*grins* Another player who's wearing rose-tinted glasses.  Go play ME1 again then try to tell me it has better pacing (at least so far as romances go).

Also, since a lot of people seem to be talking about it; Tali's...shall we say "anticipation" for sex (assuming they did do more than make out; pretty likely) is not entirely unwarranted nor would I say it's unrealistic.  Some people think that she moves rather fast (and so did I until I thought about it), but think of it this way:

Tali is a 24 year old quarian who not only has never been with another male, but lives almost her entire life in an enviro-suit.  Think about what actual physical contact must mean for her.  She doesn't want to have sex with Shepard simply because they can, she wants to be physical with him because it's an assurance the relationship can survive.  Being able to touch someone else's skin without the barrier of the suit would mean everything in the world to her. 

That's why I think she acted the way she did at least.

[InvaderErl]

She says the act of linking suits is a show of trust, therefore Tali's wish to be physically intimate can be judged as an extension of that. Its more about making a deep personal connection with Shepard than "I need to get me some of that!" line of reasoning.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 08 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[Knoll Argonar]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Raptr569 wrote...

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

*grins* Another player who's wearing rose-tinted glasses.  Go play ME1 again then try to tell me it has better pacing (at least so far as romances go).

Also, since a lot of people seem to be talking about it; Tali's...shall we say "anticipation" for sex (assuming they did do more than make out; pretty likely) is not entirely unwarranted nor would I say it's unrealistic.  Some people think that she moves rather fast (and so did I until I thought about it), but think of it this way:

Tali is a 24 year old quarian who not only has never been with another male, but lives almost her entire life in an enviro-suit.  Think about what actual physical contact must mean for her.  She doesn't want to have sex with Shepard simply because they can, she wants to be physical with him because it's an assurance the relationship can survive.  Being able to touch someone else's skin without the barrier of the suit would mean everything in the world to her. 

That's why I think she acted the way she did at least.

Exactly, as she said, Neurostimulation was doing quite the same, and she didn't want that. Her talks about "every time you smell a flower..." are really emotional.

I agree with you in everything: for me ME2>ME1 in romance. And Tali specially because, you know, She's been interested in you during a mission in the most advanced Starship of the Galaxy (yet) to save, well, the entire Galaxy. I really found that there was some kind of "close friendship -> I would really like to be more" thing in ME1, since the whole "You're the first person to treat me like a person" line (or something like that) from that game shows some admiration/respect/attraction towards Shepard.

And remember that in ME2 you have Loyalty missions, than in Tali's case (as well as Jack's or Thanes') you actually do more with the character than in all the convos in ME1 put together. You talk to Tali more, you learn about her motivations, opinions, feelings and fears more in her loyalty mission than anywhere else. And more importantly: you show her that YOU respect and at least care about her. And some little convos from Liara can't compare such a group of emotions IMO.

[JeanLuc761]

InvaderErl wrote...

She says the act of linking suits is a show of trust, therefore Tali's wish to be physically intimate can be judged as an extension of that. Its more about making a deep personal connection with Shepard than "I need to get me some of that!" line of reasoning.

Thank you; you said it much more concisely than I did

[UsagiVindaloo]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Raptr569 wrote...

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

*grins* Another player who's wearing rose-tinted glasses.  Go play ME1 again then try to tell me it has better pacing (at least so far as romances go).

Also, since a lot of people seem to be talking about it; Tali's...shall we say "anticipation" for sex (assuming they did do more than make out; pretty likely) is not entirely unwarranted nor would I say it's unrealistic.  Some people think that she moves rather fast (and so did I until I thought about it), but think of it this way:

Tali is a 24 year old quarian who not only has never been with another male, but lives almost her entire life in an enviro-suit.  Think about what actual physical contact must mean for her.  She doesn't want to have sex with Shepard simply because they can, she wants to be physical with him because it's an assurance the relationship can survive.  Being able to touch someone else's skin without the barrier of the suit would mean everything in the world to her. 

That's why I think she acted the way she did at least.

I agree that the beginning of the Liara romance in ME1 was... um... rather fast.  "Hello Commander, thank you for rescuing me. I HAVE A CONNECTION WITH YOU, LOL." I don't particularly remember what I saw of the Kaiden romance being particularly rushed, though... and it had Kaiden being quite hesitant at times, feeling the whole thing out (mind you, I gather that's why some dislike him!)

You do make some very good points about Tali, though, especially about physical contact period. I think my problem is that I do keep imagining it a bit like... I dunno, if my male friend said he liked me, I said I liked him too, and the first words out of his mouth were, "Let me go to the store to get a condom!" That would feel really offputting in real life and thus felt really weird in the game too. Admittedly the whole "suicide mission" thing does sort of mix things up a bit.

[UsagiVindaloo]

InvaderErl wrote...

She says the act of linking suits is a show of trust, therefore Tali's wish to be physically intimate can be judged as an extension of that. Its more about making a deep personal connection with Shepard than "I need to get me some of that!" line of reasoning.

That is a very good point. Perhaps the continual emphasis of "skin on skin" made it seem, I dunno, more physical than emotional. I did pick up on a bit of that "act of trust" dynamic there, but I feel like the script could have been tweaked juuuuust a bit to make it come over a little better.

[JeanLuc761]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

You do make some very good points about Tali, though, especially about physical contact period. I think my problem is that I do keep imagining it a bit like... I dunno, if my male friend said he liked me, I said I liked him too, and the first words out of his mouth were, "Let me go to the store to get a condom!" That would feel really offputting in real life and thus felt really weird in the game too. Admittedly the whole "suicide mission" thing does sort of mix things up a bit.

Haha, yeah I get where you're coming from.  I think the most important thing is to just remember to put everything in context.  In the context of modern-day, it would come off as more than a little odd; in the context of Mass Effect (and the characters), it makes sense.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 08 mars 2010 - 10:27 .

[DarthCaine]

I don't know about the pace, but IMO ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 08 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[Barquiel]

DarthCaine wrote...

I don't know about the pace, but ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

...in your opinion (I don't say they were the best written romances)

[DarthCaine]

Barquiel wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I don't know about the pace, but ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

...in your opinion (I don't say they were the best written romances)

Well, I forget to write IMO sometimes

[Barquiel]

DarthCaine wrote...
I don't know about the pace, but ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

My "romance ranking"
BG2>KOTOR>Dragon Age>ME1/Jade Empire>ME2>NWN

[Knoll Argonar]

Srsly, for me no Romance is more retarded than the Jacob one.



I killed her and Miranda (and Zaeed by accident) today with my Female Adept Shepard just to make sure Cerberus doesn't f*ck off sending me her squaddies next time.

[DarthCaine]

Barquiel wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
I don't know about the pace, but ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

My "romance ranking"
BG2>KOTOR>Dragon Age>ME1/Jade Empire>ME2>NWN

NWN had a romance?

[Apolloin Malhim]

A lot of people found the Liara romance subplot to be overly rushed, but I think you have to consider the Prothean aspect to the relationship.

Liara has spent decades studying the Protheans - crawling around on sterile ruins getting excited at the occaisional discovery of a Prothean Spork for the limited knowledge of Prothean culture it might unlock. All of a sudden *BANG* she meets this person whose first act is to save her life, then force a rapprochement with her estranged mother that leads to a 'coming of age' experience. Then it transpires that this mysterious person will take her to the last outpost of Prothean civilisation, Ilos, to solve the mystery of the Prothean extinction.

Now add the fact that Shep takes on the Cipher, becoming to all intents and purposes a Prothean himself. Liara is forced to mind-meld with him on multiple occaisions to better understand the beacon. The big question was how an emotionally immature youngster like Liara was supposed to AVOID becoming infatuated by Shepherd!

Modifié par Apolloin Malhim, 08 mars 2010 - 11:01 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Shandepared wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm comparing the romances.  Tali had absolutely no ME1 romantic content.  If there was even hints of it in ME1, I'd agree with you.  Instead, they just threw it on in ME2

I kind of disagree with you. Though it isn't "romantic" really, if you give Tali the geth data and then say that you'll miss her when she's gone it becomes very cleary that she's feeling some strong emotions right then. Obviously she does this with femshep as well, but regardless, it's clear by the end of Mass Effect 1 that she has strong feelings for Shepard, even if perhaps as just a friend.

I think that in ME1 she's a friend that may be a possible future Love if we crossed paths together again, in a different place, without the "follow Saren" plot forcing me to focus on the mission. In fact, the way my canon Shepard did that relation during both games was like "I love you but I don't want to screw up and get rejected for something you may don't even care about", because in ME1 I didn't know ANYTHING about quarians and didn't even considered that she may found me (shepard) attractive. At last, as atractive as for an Asari.

When I heared her "are you really alive?" line at the beggining of the game, listened to the records on Haestrom and talked to Kelly about her, I realized it was possible.

Moreover, even if a Suicide Mission isn't the same as a more "calm" situation, but It helped us (Shepard and Tali) to really have a motivation to confess our feelings one another.

Hell yeah it's well written. You just have to role-play a little in ME1 and remember your feeligns (as Shepard) towards Tali during ME2.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 08 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[FenixPendragon]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Raptr569 wrote...

It is poorly paced compared to ME1 but it kind of makes sense that they drop there knickers/briefs for what could be there only chance for a bit of Shepard (or anyone else) ever.

*grins* Another player who's wearing rose-tinted glasses.  Go play ME1 again then try to tell me it has better pacing (at least so far as romances go).

Also, since a lot of people seem to be talking about it; Tali's...shall we say "anticipation" for sex (assuming they did do more than make out; pretty likely) is not entirely unwarranted nor would I say it's unrealistic.  Some people think that she moves rather fast (and so did I until I thought about it), but think of it this way:

Tali is a 24 year old quarian who not only has never been with another male, but lives almost her entire life in an enviro-suit.  Think about what actual physical contact must mean for her.  She doesn't want to have sex with Shepard simply because they can, she wants to be physical with him because it's an assurance the relationship can survive.  Being able to touch someone else's skin without the barrier of the suit would mean everything in the world to her. 

That's why I think she acted the way she did at least.

I agree that the beginning of the Liara romance in ME1 was... um... rather fast.  "Hello Commander, thank you for rescuing me. I HAVE A CONNECTION WITH YOU, LOL." I don't particularly remember what I saw of the Kaiden romance being particularly rushed, though... and it had Kaiden being quite hesitant at times, feeling the whole thing out (mind you, I gather that's why some dislike him!)

You do make some very good points about Tali, though, especially about physical contact period. I think my problem is that I do keep imagining it a bit like... I dunno, if my male friend said he liked me, I said I liked him too, and the first words out of his mouth were, "Let me go to the store to get a condom!" That would feel really offputting in real life and thus felt really weird in the game too. Admittedly the whole "suicide mission" thing does sort of mix things up a bit.

For Liara she eyeballs you the moment you tell the Krogan to go climb a tree when you rescue her (provided you rescue her early). This is part of the whole Asari Maiden stage thing (new experiences) so I never liked that romance fully (Ash might be good if I ever get in a bar fight).

As for Tali...I just ran through ME1 again and there are definitely some subtle hints that she is interested in you even then. For one when on Vermire she states that the upcoming battle frightens her (the only character to express genuine fear) but she also states that she is confident in you.

In addition if and when you give her the geth data disk (after the battles in the Armstrong cluster)  one of conversation options strong hints that her pilgrimage is over at that point but she wants too see you through to the end.
 
He Father’s e-mail to you suggests that her is concerned that she does have feeling for Shepherd (duly noted Admiral Zorah and thanks for not calling me a jerk).

In ME2 She actively tries to discourage the relationship because she fears that it might affect your abilities and distract you from the mission. This is not the sign of someone interested in a short term relationship. She then repeats asking you this if you go back and talks to her again before the final mission. The real disappointment is she repeats this after the final mission and after your interlude.
 
I do admit that Shepherd is learning a great deal about Quarians but she has not once asked me about Earth - Tell me of your homeworld Shepherd – Pity, this is where I think the depth is lacking.
 
The writers must have had Kahlil Gibran on the brain: “If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. And if they don't, they never were.”
 
Plus it is precious to watch her shoot a geth in the face with the M22 and watch it fly across the room…my kind of lady.
 
In the end they WANT you to buy ME3.
 
(what has evoked this kind of loyalty? Remember she says in Udina's office that "she can handle herself").

Modifié par FenixPendragon, 08 mars 2010 - 11:19 .

[CmdrFenix83]

DarthCaine wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
I don't know about the pace, but ME1's romances were the worst romances in any BioWare game (and all the LIs were boring as hell)

My "romance ranking"
BG2>KOTOR>Dragon Age>ME1/Jade Empire>ME2>NWN

NWN had a romance?

Player/Aribeth.  I enjoyed it personally.  It let me turn her back.