35 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

I've been on the fence about these for a while, and I'm interested to know what other people think.

I'm currently running a heavily-modded Vanguard and one of the changes he's gotten is that I've effectively replaced Cryo with Warp, on the basis that Warp Ammo is versatile and fits a biotic class far better than a crowd control ammo that is virtually useless if taken at any less of a level than Squad. And it's made me wonder, was it a good idea to assign ammo powers to classes rather than have them as upgrades?

In the original ME1 they were class independant. Some of them were bit useless but they weren't a concern, you could use them or not. Arguably ammo has increased in worth in ME2 thanks to the rock-paper-scissors system and hence, I'm not sure it makes sense from a gameplay point of view. It's lead to characters using sub-optimal ammo powers on enemies because they don't have any better, and it also means that the only way for some classes to gain an ammo power is to go through the awkward squad ammo system which, ultimately, just doesn't work well with the AI.

Storyline wise it makes no sense whatsoever, but that's by the by.

I have to confess I'm sceptical as to why they were made into powers. I can't shake the feeling that they were turned into powers just to give the soldier something to use, and it's stranger still that the player is never given a choice as to what they can use either outside of picking a class. The fact that the infiltrator has incinerate over Incendiary Ammo is plain weird (why would a class built around stealth prefer to use fireballs rather than precision rounds?), while the Vanguard with Cryo is one of those things that I still haven't fathomed (yes, the only warrior class in the game that can control crowds... of course he needs an extra power to do this in an inferior fashion to his Pull Field...)

What say you all?

[Frosty Ananth]

Incinerate on the Infiltrator fit in my mind mostly because it reminds me of Boba Fett. Hand Flamethrower? **** yes.

[JaegerBane]

Frosty Ananth wrote...

Incinerate on the Infiltrator fit in my mind mostly because it reminds me of Boba Fett. Hand Flamethrower? **** yes.

If you wanted a flamethrower you could get one properly. I just thought it was absurd that a class that has cloaking devices and sniper rifles would prefer to shoot great balls of fire over equipping anti-armour rounds. It doesn't exactly scream 'stealth' now does it?

[padaE]

I would say it was a great idea. It makes the combat feel much better... also the option to pick in the last level a heavy ammo or a squad ammo is great too.

[sandman7431]

It's an interesting game play mechanic but I'm not married to it. They could change it up for the next game and I wouldn't be upset as long as the new system has as much depth. It's certainly better than ME1's system.

[Andaius20]

I would have much rather them keep the weapon skills abilities and stay with the weapon mods. Marksmen, carnage and overkill would have still made awesome abilities over the ammo powers.

[Spyndel]

Its a good idea in that it was necessary to try and give the classes more distinction. I think it could be argued that ammo that pretty much anyone should be able to use, was not the best way to go about it.

[ScroguBlitzen]

I agree that it sounds like they needed to give some actual skills to the Soldier.

[ShiftSpectre]

I like the ammo powers better than in ME1.



That said, there was too much emphasis on them. IMO Bioware should either make ammo powers more interesting or add more interesting powers to the game as a whole. Shredder ammo is a good example: it feels like they couldn't come up with a better bonus power for Thane. I think it should be combined with AP ammo: the new ammo could be better at shattering frozen targets, knocking enemies down, and/or destroying limbs and doing increased headshot damage.

[sandman7431]

To be completely honest, I would prefer that they focus on different weapons rather than different ammo types. Don't get me wrong, this game has a completely satisfactory arsenal but I'd like to see them focus a bit more on making creative and useful weapons and powers. The ammo system was a bit too prominent IMO.



One thing that I think should change is the heavy weapons system. I don't think they should be available to every class and I think they should be more useful overall. The particle beam is the only one with any sense of regular usefulness. The others are mostly used on YMIRs and bosses (though the Blackstorm is great early in an insanity run).



The main problem is that they have to work on the biotics. They are just not as satisfying overall as weapons or tech IMO.

[Neo Hex Omega]

I like that Bioware put ammo mods on the weapon wheel, because it makes it very easy to switch them on the fly. However, I do dislike having to spend talent points on them(we didn't need to waste points on them in ME1, why now), and I dislike that not every party member can use any ammo.



A step forward, and a step back at the same time for me.

[sickblaze]

sandman7431 wrote...

It's an interesting game play mechanic but I'm not married to it. They could change it up for the next game and I wouldn't be upset as long as the new system has as much depth. It's certainly better than ME1's system.

Agree with this.

Also agree with OP about Incinerate on the Infiltrator. I don't think it fit the class at all. I also find that it conflicts with tactical cloak, as they are both usable in similar situations (either sniping through armor or incinerating it), so I'm using one or the other. I would have preferred cryo-blast on the Infiltrator instead of incinerate.

Modifié par sickblaze, 09 mars 2010 - 02:19 .

[MassEffect762]

Nope. I preferred them as ammo types I added to my weapons upgrade slot.

I could let warp ammo pass as a biotic power but other than that ammo "powers" were weak sauce for me.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 09 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[sandman7431]

I think that they might ultimately want to go with a system where they keep the ammo types but make them less prominent in the game. They definately shouldn't make them things that you have to spend talent points on.

[primelink]

Yeah Ammo powers were a little cheap. They could have been on the Weapon selection wheel ? I still think as an RPG it should have been part of the weapon customization back on your ship. You select your weapon then it's ammo load out.

[OniGanon]

JaegerBane wrote...
I just thought it was absurd that a class that has cloaking devices and sniper rifles would prefer to shoot great balls of fire over equipping anti-armour rounds. It doesn't exactly scream 'stealth' now does it?

Ah! But think of the psychological effect of an enemy you cannot see but can set you on fire.

[Atmosfear3]

Without ammo powers the soldier would have 3 skills. Adrenaline rush, concussive shot and the passive. What do you propose they add for the soldier to use, whose focus is mainly on shooting?

Marksmanship? Useless, Shepard already has perfect accuracy and overheating is a moot point with thermal clip system. The overheating didn't make much sense either in ME1. How does aiming better make your gun squeeze off more rounds?

Carnage? Concussive blast is basically the same thing, with less damage.

[slyguy07]

I believe incinerate is actually meant to be what sabotage was in ME1. Unfortunately sabotage was much more useful imo in that it did dmg and overheated your enemies weapon for about 5-10 sec or so. Overload makes your opponent have to reload his weapon now once you put enough points into it, but it's nowhere as effective as Sabotage was.

[akintu]

Overkill could be cool for a Soldier. Rather surprising it isn't in, really. Have it retain accuracy as you fire with an AR, and eliminate the ammo burn while it is active. Say it lasts 10 seconds. You can fire full auto that entire time, without losing any accuracy, and no reloading. As soon as it wears off, you still get to unload your current magazine. Could be especially good with the limited ammo of the Vindicator.



Could also give Soldiers another passive, call it ammo mastery or something, and let it give them additional damage or other bonuses from whatever ammo they have loaded. Perhaps at the highest level it could even give squad members a similar bonus with whatever ammo you've loaded them out with.

[Spyndel]

alex_ladik wrote...

Overkill could be cool for a Soldier. Rather surprising it isn't in, really. Have it retain accuracy as you fire with an AR, and eliminate the ammo burn while it is active. Say it lasts 10 seconds. You can fire full auto that entire time, without losing any accuracy, and no reloading. As soon as it wears off, you still get to unload your current magazine. Could be especially good with the limited ammo of the Vindicator.

The problem with all that, is the stupid global cooldown.  Soldiers already have their "supermode" with + accuracy and +damage for *any* weapon, which also doubles as their emergency defensive ability, and a *short* cooldown.  As long as the global cooldown is in effect, I cant see people tying up their cooldown with another ability like that.

As long as the global cooldown is in the game, any other active abilities would have to serve an entirely different purpose than AR, and worth losing the use of of their existing "supermode" for.

[JaegerBane]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Without ammo powers the soldier would have 3 skills. Adrenaline rush, concussive shot and the passive. What do you propose they add for the soldier to use, whose focus is mainly on shooting?
Marksmanship? Useless, Shepard already has perfect accuracy and overheating is a moot point with thermal clip system. The overheating didn't make much sense either in ME1. How does aiming better make your gun squeeze off more rounds?
Carnage? Concussive blast is basically the same thing, with less damage.

As I said to begin with, it isn't really that impressive an argument to say that ammos had to become powers just to give the soldier something to use. What's the point of removing a feature for the entirety of the other classes just to make the soldier look better?

[JaegerBane]

padaE wrote...

I would say it was a great idea. It makes the combat feel much better... also the option to pick in the last level a heavy ammo or a squad ammo is great too.

Squad ammo would have been a good idea if it worked properly.

[Atmosfear3]

JaegerBane wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Without ammo powers the soldier would have 3 skills. Adrenaline rush, concussive shot and the passive. What do you propose they add for the soldier to use, whose focus is mainly on shooting?
Marksmanship? Useless, Shepard already has perfect accuracy and overheating is a moot point with thermal clip system. The overheating didn't make much sense either in ME1. How does aiming better make your gun squeeze off more rounds?
Carnage? Concussive blast is basically the same thing, with less damage.

As I said to begin with, it isn't really that impressive an argument to say that ammos had to become powers just to give the soldier something to use. What's the point of removing a feature for the entirety of the other classes just to make the soldier look better?

It may not be an impressive argument but a valid one nonetheless.  I don't think it was so much to make the soldier better but to make the soldier actually comparable to other classes who have more defined and unique skills. Ammo powers are ammo powers but an incinerate is not the same as AI hack if you understand what I mean.  Like I said, there are no suggestions offered that are unique and interesting that would be appropriate to the soldier so until then, my point still stands.

[Bill Hooks]

I don't care if ammo is in the power wheel or the weapon locker or the start menu or wherever, just let it stay on until I decide otherwise. Having to intermittently re-equip ammo, having squadmates overrule your ammo choices -- pointless, aggravating nuisances.

[Spyndel]

Bill Hooks wrote...

I don't care if ammo is in the power wheel or the weapon locker or the start menu or wherever, just let it stay on until I decide otherwise. Having to intermittently re-equip ammo, having squadmates overrule your ammo choices -- pointless, aggravating nuisances.

Dont forget having to frequently equip amm for each nrew weapn you switch to.  It would be great if the game just assumed that most of the time, if youre fighting enemies that you want a certain ammo for, its most often going to be the same for each weapon.  And in the odd cases it isnt, *then* you can make an individual change.  I hate having to burn 3 seconds to equip for my AR *and* my sniper rifle.

Yeah, the ammo system definitely needs a usability pass top to bottom.