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[RighteousRage]

If any of you belong to any of the extant religions, then I'm pretty sure Geth are more "real people" than humans are

[GuardianAngel470]

RighteousRage wrote...

If any of you belong to any of the extant religions, then I'm pretty sure Geth are more "real people" than humans are

That got me curious, what do you mean?

[Terraneaux]

ReconTeam wrote...

Aesaar wrote...
And you know this how?

We don't have to prove that something doesn't exist.  You claim the soul is real.  The burden of proof is on you.

To provide another example of your logic:
There is a teapot in orbit of Mars.  You can't prove otherwise.  Therefore it exists.

Let me guess, your another atheist. Same boring arguments as usual. Shall I direct you to a website or copy and paste something for you?

You may find the arguments boring, but they hold more water than all the world's religions combined.

I don't know, maybe I should blame your parents instead of you...

Just be glad there's one less faith-sufferer in the world.

[RighteousRage]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

If any of you belong to any of the extant religions, then I'm pretty sure Geth are more "real people" than humans are

That got me curious, what do you mean?

I mean, if people are stupid enough to buy into any of the current religions for sure then Geth are probably more logical than "real people" and ought to be held in higher regard

Modifié par RighteousRage, 09 mars 2010 - 07:31 .

[WrexShepard]

The adeptus mechanicus tell us that machines do have souls... even non sentient ones.



So even if the geth weren't sentient, they do have souls. But they are sentient, and sapient, and also have souls making them fully functional individuals.



However, if we're going by 40k rules they're also pretty heretical. So sorry, soulful sentient robots, you have to get the exterminatus.

[slackbheep]

OP: You are a biological machine.

[thegreateski]

A thought



The only difference between a machine and an animal are the materials used in the construction . . . and the ability to ensure it's survival.

[Terraneaux]

thegreateski wrote...

A thought

The only difference between a machine and an animal are the materials used in the construction . . . and the ability to ensure it's survival.

QFT.  A lot of people aren't ready to accept this.

[Mnemnosyne]

The simple answer is that some people are bigots, and some people are not.  Those who are will always justify their bigotry, whether against different members of their own species, members of other species, or non-organics, by pointing out differences between themselves and the people they are being bigoted against.  These differences can be anything between superficial (brown skin versus light skin) to operational differences in the way they function, but in the end, all attempts to dismiss or otherwise disregard the 'validity' of any form of intelligent, sapient life, is bigotry.

Any being which can make a decision to express itself entirely on its own, and is capable of requesting to be treated as an intelligent, sapient being, is worthy of it, and to deny that being such a status is bigotry regardless of the justification one may try to use.

[Bogsnot1]

Ah. Didn't take long for a typical ****** atheist to show up thinking he is smart because he is doing what his parent's didn't want. Pathetic.

When it comes down to it, you too, are an Aetheist. You do not believe in Loki, Odin, Thor, Frey, Freya, Bel-Marduk, Thost, Set, Ra, Mercrury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Aphrodite, Posieden to name but a few.

I applied every single arguement you had against these gods to your own.

See point 3 about rational decisions and critical thinking.

[Mossa_missa]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

They don't have souls? Nither have we dude...

[Mossa_missa]

ReconTeam wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
4) The word "soul" invokes religious connotations. The game itself contains enough fiction, without you adding your delusional "fan-fiction" to it.

Ah. Didn't take long for a typical ****** atheist to show up thinking he is smart because he is doing what his parent's didn't want. Pathetic.

So its better to belive everything you parents tell you? Even to belive in Santa? Even if they are delusional from reading a book and belive God punishes people with natural disasters? Yeah, sounds wery sane indeed...

Your the pathetic one reaching for fantasies and delusions rather accept reality.

Modifié par Mossa_missa, 09 mars 2010 - 10:13 .

[gloowacz]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls.

What does being a machine have to do with being a person? YOU are also a machine, a very organized decay of organic material. Nothing more.

What does having soul have to do with being a person? How can something that's existance can't be prooved or disprooved be deciding criterium in any discussion? 
An analogy:
You are a person because the demons of outer space do live in your brain. Now proove or disproove me.

[Inverness Moon]

ReconTeam wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
4) The word "soul" invokes religious connotations. The game itself contains enough fiction, without you adding your delusional "fan-fiction" to it.

Ah. Didn't take long for a typical ****** atheist to show up thinking he is smart because he is doing what his parent's didn't want. Pathetic.

It's a good thing all theists aren't as abrasive as you.

In case I haven't said it before, I'll throw my weight in with the lot that would consider us humans complex organic machines.

Bringing souls into the debate is going to go nowhere, but the fact that the geth asked if they had one is good enough for me in that area. I'd also love to ask Legion if the geth believe they have a soul in the present time.

Some people also seem to have trouble understanding that all life doesn't have to be organic, have emotions, or even be individuals, etc.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[superimposed]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

The soul is a fabricated ideal established by stone-age myths designed to frighten people in to submission. To rely on that as a measure of 'existance' or 'life' is to rely on ignorance to form your views for you.

I'm not saying that badjezus is right, but there is no proof that the soul does or doesn't exist. Yes there is historical precedent that says that the existence of a soul is a good tool for manipulating populations but it is also true that we are scientifically ignorant of what makes us who we are.  We can't track down a personality, and because of this ignorance the existence of a soul is still a distinct possibility.  Dismissing it out of hand belies our ignorance either way.

No. We can link both biology and psychology to the make up of an individual persona, that the increase or decrease in certain chemicals, injuries to parts of the brain or exposure to emotional trauma can all change an individual's personality.
What can not be shown is that anywhere involved is the presense of any outside or internal metaphysical force. It's not a matter of ignorance of the soul, it is the simple matter that everything functions without having to invoke the metaphysical, nothing is reliant or dependant on the idea, and there is not any evidence that proves the existence of the soul.
And something must be proved before it can be disproved.

Ah. Didn't take long for a typical ****** atheist to show up thinking
he is smart because he is doing what his parent's didn't want. Pathetic.

It takes a great deal of vanity and arrogance to think yourself destined by an eternal, all-powerful and all knowing creator for a specific role in a universe of such expanse as that even if it were known perfectly would be on a scale too large for human comprehension. We are invisible from the moon, and the distance between here and there is as insignificant as the smallest distance we can currently measure when compared to the distance between here and the sun, let alone the rest of our solar system, galaxy or universe.
If you want to establish yourself in possession of a truth that those who choose not to believe are ignorant of, then it would be best not to position yourself on a point of arrogance and superiority.

The adeptus mechanicus tell us that machines do have souls... even non
sentient ones.



So even if the geth weren't sentient,
they do have souls. But they are sentient, and sapient, and also have
souls making them fully functional individuals.



However,
if we're going by 40k rules they're also pretty heretical. So sorry,
soulful sentient robots, you have to get the exterminatus.

Fact!
Brother.

[Bwaksson]

If the geth were real i would consider them people. I would not concider them a race, they are simply sentient machines.
I agree with the people in here who consider us organic machines. except the term itself. A machine differs from an organism in that it has been designed by another intelligent entity. So unless one believe in a creator we are not organic machines.
I would call the geth synthetic organisms and we are biological organisms

As for the soul part, I personally don't believe in souls the way religions describe them. Nor do i believe in any diety. But I don't reject the possibility. The way I see it God either doesn't exist or he does but obviouslly doesn't want me to believe. I don't see the connection between soul or intelligence either. The geth who asked about the soul did not freak the quarians out because the word implied intelligence, but interest in its own non-physical being.

I don't think we have souls. We have ghosts. And machines can have ghosts too

By the way, I saw the word atheist somewhere in here and would like to remind everyone that an atheist is someone who opposes belief of a diety. Just not believing in a god does not make you an atheist  I know the broad definition does, but I prefer to make the distinction)

[Maginipowfire]

Geth don't have souls. They only have one. We are all geth.

[mopotter]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

It's because we all watched Star Trek: The Next Generation. :-)

Seriously, I think that might be part of it... for me, it didn't even occur to me not to consider the geth as "real people" because I have this Star Trek background that shows how machines, robots, androids, etc can be individuals in their own right and can, in every way that counts, be just like us in terms of self awareness, learning, and even metaphysical thought (e.g. the geth asking if they have a soul).

The quarian treatment of the geth was, in my mind, horrible (though they didn't deserve what happened to them); it was the only time I got actually pissy with Tali in ME1. Perhaps they were created as tools, but Tali herself says the quarians realized the geth had gained self awareness. Rather than nurturing that self awareness and treating it as a new species (or, at the very least, an entirely new kind of mechanical entity), they tried to shut everything off and return it to the way it was.

I agree.  Data in Next Generation was one of my 3 favorites.  You are fully functional, aren't you?"
Data: "Of course, but ..."
Yar: "How fully?"
Data: "In every way, of course. I have been programmed in multiple techniques, a broad variety of pleasuring ..."
Yar: "You jewel! That's exactly what I hoped."
– An 'inebriated' exchange prior to Data's first intimate encounter .

Seriously, I also got very irritated with Tali about the Geth in ME1 and I was glad she got to hear the 3 different Admirals with their view points.  Turning back the clock; War and  Geth as the Quarian's children.    In my game, Tali started realizing how complex the issue is and after talking to Legion - becuase I figure they all do that between missions, she has started thinking about working with them instead of just destroying them.

Geth aren't human.  But they think, they can multiply, they make decisions based on information they have available and they are "self aware". 

[DarthCaine]

thegreateski wrote...

Souls? Oh come on people.

When you bring the immaterial into a material debate then everything will go to **** because neither side will be able to disprove the other.

Actually, neither side can convince the other that they are wrong, but there's plenty of proof that dispoved religion

[Maginipowfire]

DarthCaine wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Souls? Oh come on people.

When you bring the immaterial into a material debate then everything will go to **** because neither side will be able to disprove the other.

Actually, neither side can convince the other that they are wrong, but there's plenty of proof that dispoved religion

Please, don't.

[DarthCaine]

Maginipowfire wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Souls? Oh come on people.

When you bring the immaterial into a material debate then everything will go to **** because neither side will be able to disprove the other.

Actually, neither side can convince the other that they are wrong, but there's plenty of proof that dispoved religion

Please, don't.

I don't intend to. Like I said neither side can convince the other that they are wrong

[Driving Ghost]

The answer to the OP's question:



Because you touch yourself at night.

[Singu]

I think that most players will recognize the Geth as cognitive and sentient machines in Mass Effect. What's interesting though is that the lore of ME clearly treats artifical intelligence like the lore from the Battlestar Galactica universe, and other similar fictions written over the years. Basically you reach either a treshold of banishment or a devastating conflict of two vastly different sentient beings with sapient characteristics who are mutually exclusive.

Council space has banned the evolution of computers to go past VI levels into AI. You can only reason that this is based upon the experience the Quarians did with the Geth - but obviously also on the fact that the council banned AI's even before the Geth evolved into sentient beings. They've licensed four experimental AI's - not counting Cerberus' research that created EDI. So, maybe it's not based on experiences similar to the Geth, but a careful approach into the all the unknown quantities that envelop the creation of artificial sentient beings.

You as a player could choose to deem the Geth unworthy of existance if you interpret the Reapers as Artificial Intelligence gone bad some 37 million years ago. Or you could choose to belive that the Reapers are synthetic representations of sentient organic beings that uploaded into central hubs located in arch ships - which would make more sense perhaps based on what we know so far.

If you ask me a person wether I think dabbling into research into Strong Artificial Intelligence is smart? I would say no. At least with the present religious constructs occupying most of human society, we need to evolve further as a species before we create a new sentient one. I sided with Legion and reprogrammed the Heretics in the game though, because I think in the ME universe with the information we get as a player it makes a sound choice both as a paragon path of action and preparing for the final showdown against the Reapers.

And I don't consider the Reapers an AI gone bad. But rather the evolution of a sentient organic race that evolved past a singularity event where they uploaded into a single hub in the vessel that we recognize as a Reaper today Only to for some unimaginable reason ending up deciding to exterminate all major sentient life in the Milky Way approximately every 50.0000 year for the last 37 million year Some might argue that we're not that far away from a singularity event on earth;



Graph is taken from Wikipedia article on Singularity. And is the product of futurist Ray Kurzwell's attempt at mapping out a timeline leading up to a singularity event.

You can probably make a similar graph to number of conflicts between
religious groupings and scientifical communities doing applied research
into microbiology and the field of cybernetics. Which I think inevitably will make that graph flatten out before a singularity event untill humans abolish religion all together. Which could take a looooong time.

Modifié par Singu, 09 mars 2010 - 01:28 .

[Thundertactics]

Terraneaux wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

A thought

The only difference between a machine and an animal are the materials used in the construction . . . and the ability to ensure it's survival.

QFT.  A lot of people aren't ready to accept this.

Not exactly, the main difference between us, is the fact that Geth can replace their exterior shell entirely (into a default mobile platform, an Armature or even a simple processing array), they aren't defined by hardware (like organics), but by software. That's what makes them different, and that's why destroying them isn't actually that big a deal (given that they can re-upload their "soul" to another platform).