330 réponses à ce sujet

[Habelo]

Singu wrote...

I think that most players will recognize the Geth as cognitive and sentient machines in Mass Effect. What's interesting though is that the lore of ME clearly treats artifical intelligence like the lore from the Battlestar Galactica universe, and other similar fictions written over the years. Basically you reach either a treshold of banishment or a devastating conflict of two vastly different sentient beings with sapient characteristics who are mutually exclusive.

Council space has banned the evolution of computers to go past VI levels into AI. You can only reason that this is based upon the experience the Quarians did with the Geth - but obviously also on the fact that the council banned AI's even before the Geth evolved into sentient beings. They've licensed four experimental AI's - not counting Cerberus' research that created EDI. So, maybe it's not based on experiences similar to the Geth, but a careful approach into the all the unknown quantities that envelop the creation of artificial sentient beings.

You as a player could choose to deem the Geth unworthy of existance if you interpret the Reapers as Artificial Intelligence gone bad some 37 million years ago. Or you could choose to belive that the Reapers are synthetic representations of sentient organic beings that uploaded into central hubs located in arch ships - which would make more sense perhaps based on what we know so far.

If you ask me a person wether I think dabbling into research into Strong Artificial Intelligence is smart? I would say no. At least with the present religious constructs occupying most of human society, we need to evolve further as a species before we create a new sentient one. I sided with Legion and reprogrammed the Heretics in the game though, because I think in the ME universe with the information we get as a player it makes a sound choice both as a paragon path of action and preparing for the final showdown against the Reapers.

And I don't consider the Reapers an AI gone bad. But rather the evolution of a sentient organic race that evolved past a singularity event where they uploaded into a single hub in the vessel that we recognize as a Reaper today Only to for some unimaginable reason ending up deciding to exterminate all major sentient life in the Milky Way approximately every 50.0000 year for the last 37 million year Some might argue that we're not that far away from a singularity event on earth;



Graph is taken from Wikipedia article on Singularity. And is the product of futurist Ray Kurzwell's attempt at mapping out a timeline leading up to a singularity event.

You can probably make a similar graph to number of conflicts between
religious groupings and scientifical communities doing applied research
into microbiology and the field of cybernetics. Which I think inevitably will make that graph flatten out before a singularity event untill humans abolish religion all together. Which could take a looooong time.

power corrupts
if you only think of these as a catch phrase- look at hitler. A genius that had way to much power and became alill insane(as you can see just before he looses the war in russia).

[DarkNova50]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

It's a very popular and controversial debate about whether or not Artificial Intelligence constitutes 'life' as we know it. The analogy has been made that Humans are simply organic machines, after all. It's a very frequently visited issue in science fiction, and I think it's a great deal more ambiguous than you're giving it credit for.

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

We don't have souls either. We ourselves are just machines who adopt to our surroundings...

[The Governator]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...

We don't have souls either. We ourselves are just machines who adopt to our surroundings...

More importantly, the human consciousness shows every indication of not being a homogenous system but indeed the product of many simpler individual processes. Brain damage victims who lose specific abilities provide a lot of information in this regard - the ability to lose the connection between one's visual cortex and the emotional processor of the brain giving rise to the problem of people seeing for example, their mother, and being convinced she's an imposter - but not knowing why.
Epilepsy patients who undergo corpus calosum removal, under laboratory conditions and in day-to-day activities display behaviors indicative that the loss of communication in the brain has led to the various subsections competing with each other and reaching different conclusions. An example of an experiment is separating the visual fields of both eyes, and showing pornography to one half - the individual blushes with embarassment, but is baffled why since the parts of the brain are not communicating properly. A day to day example is some loss of agreement between tasks - some people report trying to put on a shirt, but find one hand is buttoning it up, the other is trying to take it off.
Humans are very likely a single gestalt intelligence, like Legion anyway. Legion is just more aware of its condition by design.

[Wild Still]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

1.7 words for you: Robo-Sexuals

Deviants, all of 'em.

[Singu]

Habelo wrote...

Singu wrote...(..)
And I don't consider the Reapers an AI gone bad. But rather the evolution of a sentient organic race that evolved past a singularity event where they uploaded into a single hub in the vessel that we recognize as a Reaper today Only to for some unimaginable reason ending up deciding to exterminate all major sentient life in the Milky Way approximately every 50.0000 year for the last 37 million year Some might argue that we're not that far away from a singularity event on earth;(..)

power corrupts
if you only think of these as a catch phrase- look at hitler. A genius that had way to much power and became alill insane(as you can see just before he looses the war in russia).

I guess you where talking about the reaper part of my post. Yeah, power does corrupt. And if we take that statement back to the OP you might deduct that the fear of the Geth manifests itself primarily not from their present intentions but from the extreme potential that lies in their adaptibility and growth compared to an organic species.

[Maginipowfire]

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

I don't know man. I would treat someone who could have a reasonable conversation with me as a person anytime. I don't think animals can do that.

We just have to go back and read the definition of "people".

human beings, as distinguished from animals or other beings.

So, no... Geth are not people, but I would treat them as such because they can speak, and apparently are capable of understanding.

[LOST GAM3R]

If the Geth are true AI, then they could have different personallities (that could explain the Heretics). The Heretics believed the reapers were gods, but a normal machine wouldn't care for religion. And let's not forget that the Geth were asking the Quarians if they have souls (you can ask Legion to play a pretty sad tape of it too). All of these traits can only be carried by living/sentient beings, so, in my opinion, the Geth are also "real" people.

[mopotter]

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

This is the argument I got really irritated with Ash about.  dog/bear/aliens.  

As far as I know, and maybe in the future this will change in the distant future, but  dogs, cats, birds don't convey any type of cohesive thought process.  I love my dog, but she doesn't discuss the pros and cons of things like - the end justifies the means - power corrupts or the use of symbolism in paintings like Jan van Eyck's "The Amolfini Marriage".   The Geth could do this and would have different viewpoints like they did with the loyalty quest.  They could not reach a consensus.   I think therefor I am

[Maginipowfire]

mopotter wrote...

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

This is the argument I got really irritated with Ash about.  dog/bear/aliens.  

As far as I know, and maybe in the future this will change in the distant future, but  dogs, cats, birds don't convey any type of cohesive thought process.  I love my dog, but she doesn't discuss the pros and cons of things like - the end justifies the means - power corrupts or the use of symbolism in paintings like Jan van Eyck's "The Amolfini Marriage".   The Geth could do this and would have different viewpoints like they did with the loyalty quest.  They could not reach a consensus.   I think therefor I am

I wouldn't go that far. Nobody understands that.

[Singu]

Maginipowfire wrote...

mopotter wrote...

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

This is the argument I got really irritated with Ash about.  dog/bear/aliens.  

As far as I know, and maybe in the future this will change in the distant future, but  dogs, cats, birds don't convey any type of cohesive thought process.  I love my dog, but she doesn't discuss the pros and cons of things like - the end justifies the means - power corrupts or the use of symbolism in paintings like Jan van Eyck's "The Amolfini Marriage".   The Geth could do this and would have different viewpoints like they did with the loyalty quest.  They could not reach a consensus.   I think therefor I am

I wouldn't go that far. Nobody understands that.

Haha, you made me google that painting. Looks very interesting

[Booglarize]

 Probably already been referenced, but..
OP, the answer to your question lies in the episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Data gets put on trial to determine whether he is property of Starfleet because he's "just a machine".

In particular, watch this clip of Captain Picard defending Data's rights:

www.youtube.com/watch

[Jzadek72]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

The geth are sentient, and what some would call a 'soul' is just that. Personally I call it a bunch of electrical impulses, but that's just me.

[Commissar Gash]

I consider every thing that is sentient, organic or synthetic equal, except that Humans are more equal then the rest.

[mopotter]

Maginipowfire wrote...

mopotter wrote...

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

This is the argument I got really irritated with Ash about.  dog/bear/aliens.  

As far as I know, and maybe in the future this will change in the distant future, but  dogs, cats, birds don't convey any type of cohesive thought process.  I love my dog, but she doesn't discuss the pros and cons of things like - the end justifies the means - power corrupts or the use of symbolism in paintings like Jan van Eyck's "The Amolfini Marriage".   The Geth could do this and would have different viewpoints like they did with the loyalty quest.  They could not reach a consensus.   I think therefor I am

I wouldn't go that far. Nobody understands that.

I definitely didn't.  But I did remember the paining after the class was over.    :happy:

[Gabey5]

a.i are people now

[Pauravi]

The Governator wrote...
Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

What definition of the word "person" are you using?
If it specifically excludes anything made of metal: why?

[Wild Still]

Pauravi wrote...

The Governator wrote...
Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

What definition of the word "person" are you using?
If it specifically excludes anything made of metal: why?

Because metal can't hold a soul, says so in "The Bible 2.3".

If you get a stainless steel kneecap it will repel your soul and you will be a godless cybernetic monster.


OK, you got me... I made that up.

[Booglarize]

gashgfjaskgfkagh wrote...

I consider every thing that is sentient, organic or synthetic equal, except that Humans are more equal then the rest.

Are you a Cerberus employee by any chance?

[GuardianAngel470]

Pauravi wrote...

The Governator wrote...
Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

What definition of the word "person" are you using?
If it specifically excludes anything made of metal: why?

Don't forget, the turians skin contains metal.

[tertium organum]

The entire debate about strong A.I is a rife with errors and confusion: not a single "A..I" has done anything that is not interpreted by humans and therefore given meaning. Onto itself, it is just a machine doing absolutely nothing until a cognitive being recognizes or interprets it's readings. The idea that computers are thinking, that A.I. will or can ever become sapient, in a few hundred years will be looked upon like we look at Greek myths: fabulous tales but completely ridiculous. Not a single A.I. researcher ever observes anything other than himself in his machines - it is a projection of our own mental capabilities into mechanical objects then forgotten. Computers certainly do things much faster than we normally would but that's only because of programming that we recognize, not the "compute" as some sentient entity devising and coming up with solutions - in a world without cognitive beings, the computer sits there like and other object. Bioware's foray into this area is typical of the type of world we live in where people are incapable of distinguishing themselves from the objects they create.

[The Governator]

mopotter wrote...

The Governator wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

I am ready for some backlash here but, I think people that treat Geth as people are just as likely to treat animals as people.  I would find it less offensive to treat Geth as a person than to watch an animal being treated as a person.  Neither animals nor machines are people and they never can be.

This is the argument I got really irritated with Ash about.  dog/bear/aliens.  

As far as I know, and maybe in the future this will change in the distant future, but  dogs, cats, birds don't convey any type of cohesive thought process.  I love my dog, but she doesn't discuss the pros and cons of things like - the end justifies the means - power corrupts or the use of symbolism in paintings like Jan van Eyck's "The Amolfini Marriage".   The Geth could do this and would have different viewpoints like they did with the loyalty quest.  They could not reach a consensus.   I think therefor I am

Evidently I am being gravely misinterpreted. 

I definitely do not think that animals are anywhere near the level of people.  I think that Geth are far closer to people than animals are, and I still do not think Geth are people. 

People> Geth>.............................................................................................................animals

[GuardianAngel470]

[quote]superimposed wrote...

[quote]GuardianAngel470 wrote...

[quote]superimposed wrote...

[quote]badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.[/quote]

The soul is a fabricated ideal established by stone-age myths designed to frighten people in to submission. To rely on that as a measure of 'existance' or 'life' is to rely on ignorance to form your views for you.

[/quote]

I'm not saying that badjezus is right, but there is no proof that the soul does or doesn't exist. Yes there is historical precedent that says that the existence of a soul is a good tool for manipulating populations but it is also true that we are scientifically ignorant of what makes us who we are.  We can't track down a personality, and because of this ignorance the existence of a soul is still a distinct possibility.  Dismissing it out of hand belies our ignorance either way.
[/quote]

No. We can link both biology and psychology to the make up of an individual persona, that the increase or decrease in certain chemicals, injuries to parts of the brain or exposure to emotional trauma can all change an individual's personality.
What can not be shown is that anywhere involved is the presense of any outside or internal metaphysical force. It's not a matter of ignorance of the soul, it is the simple matter that everything functions without having to invoke the metaphysical, nothing is reliant or dependant on the idea, and there is not any evidence that proves the existence of the soul.
And something must be proved before it can be disproved.


[quote]
Super imposed, I'm just playing devils advocate, I don't think we have souls, but I can't prove we don't either, which still leaves the possibility that there is such a thing as a metaphysical soul, however unlikely.  I don't expect you to understand, not because i think you're stupid or anything, but because when I posed my stance that anything, absolutely anything, is possible until proven otherwise to my aero engineer dad he got mad, even though my belief would support his belief in god.  It is an exercise in openmindedness, even if the true ramifications will probably never be seen by me or anyone.  

The argument is just that you can't say someone needs proof if you can't provide proof to contradict them.