330 réponses à ce sujet

[Pauravi]

The Governator wrote...

Evidently I am being gravely misinterpreted. 

I definitely do not think that animals are anywhere near the level of people.  I think that Geth are far closer to people than animals are, and I still do not think Geth are people. 

People> Geth>.............................................................................................................animals

That still doesn't answer the question of what you consider to be a "person", and why the Geth are not people?

[GuardianAngel470]

tertium organum wrote...

The entire debate about strong A.I is a rife with errors and confusion: not a single "A..I" has done anything that is not interpreted by humans and therefore given meaning. Onto itself, it is just a machine doing absolutely nothing until a cognitive being recognizes or interprets it's readings. The idea that computers are thinking, that A.I. will or can ever become sapient, in a few hundred years will be looked upon like we look at Greek myths: fabulous tales but completely ridiculous. Not a single A.I. researcher ever observes anything other than himself in his machines - it is a projection of our own mental capabilities into mechanical objects then forgotten. Computers certainly do things much faster than we normally would but that's only because of programming that we recognize, not the "compute" as some sentient entity devising and coming up with solutions - in a world without cognitive beings, the computer sits there like and other object. Bioware's foray into this area is typical of the type of world we live in where people are incapable of distinguishing themselves from the objects they create.

With enough work and time dedicated to creating an AI it could become as independant as humans.  All humans do is interpret input and react.  Emotions are just a biological reaction, duplicable with lines of code. If a then b, if b then c, and so on and so forth.  We do nothing that a machine can't do, with enough lines of code to be able to react to every possible and permutational situation.

[GuardianAngel470]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

tertium organum wrote...

The entire debate about strong A.I is a rife with errors and confusion: not a single "A..I" has done anything that is not interpreted by humans and therefore given meaning. Onto itself, it is just a machine doing absolutely nothing until a cognitive being recognizes or interprets it's readings. The idea that computers are thinking, that A.I. will or can ever become sapient, in a few hundred years will be looked upon like we look at Greek myths: fabulous tales but completely ridiculous. Not a single A.I. researcher ever observes anything other than himself in his machines - it is a projection of our own mental capabilities into mechanical objects then forgotten. Computers certainly do things much faster than we normally would but that's only because of programming that we recognize, not the "compute" as some sentient entity devising and coming up with solutions - in a world without cognitive beings, the computer sits there like and other object. Bioware's foray into this area is typical of the type of world we live in where people are incapable of distinguishing themselves from the objects they create.

With enough work and time dedicated to creating an AI it could become as independant as humans.  All humans do is interpret input and react.  Emotions are just a biological reaction, duplicable with lines of code. If a then b, if b then c, and so on and so forth.  We do nothing that a machine can't do, with enough lines of code to be able to react to every possible and permutational situation.

I would add that it would be a ridiculous amount of work to to it that way, much easier to use adaptive techniques already known.

[Bartlebyfinch]

I'm making the assumption that "real people" as it's used here is synonymous for "intelligent/sapient beings" - a category that would also include Asari, Turians, Elcor, Krogan, Salarians, etc. If it is, I would offer that I do indeed consider Geth to be "real people." For me, determining who are "real people" is a fairly simple matter.

1. Are they self-aware, and do they deliberately question the nature of their existence?

2. Are they capable of calculus?



The whole organic / soul issue really isn't worth bringing up.  There is no right or wrong answer in that debate, and all arguing about it is going to accomplish is to ****** a lot of people off.

Modifié par Bartlebyfinch, 09 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[Commissar Gash]

Booglarize wrote...

gashgfjaskgfkagh wrote...

I consider every thing that is sentient, organic or synthetic equal, except that Humans are more equal then the rest.

Are you a Cerberus employee by any chance?

How did you know? Did you saw me and TiM in that human-only stripclub (smoking is allowed there ofcourse)?I told him that it wasn't a smart idea to plan "how to make Humans take over the galaxy in three steps" in a stripclub, but he'd said "Nude women make you think beter and the drinks are very good in this place. "
We also met a stupid alien-loving human who didn't agreed with our plans, let's say that my Revenant  didn't agreed with him.....YEEEAAAH!
(Sorry for the CSI style oneliner)

[GuardianAngel470]

Bartlebyfinch wrote...

I'm making the assumption that "real people" as it's used here is synonymous for "intelligent organic beings" - a category that would also include Asari, Turians, Elcor, Krogan, Salarians, etc. If it is, I would offer that I do indeed consider Geth to be "real people." For me, determining who are "real people" is a fairly simple matter.

1. Are they self-aware, and do they deliberately question the nature of their existence?

2. Are they capable of calculus?



The whole organic / soul issue really isn't worth bringing up.  There is no right or wrong answer in that debate, and all arguing about it is going to accomplish is to ****** a lot of people off.

Congratulations, you are the umpteenth person to have that opinion about souls.  Regardless, they want to talk about it like it matters, and nothing any of us says is going to dissuade them. Nice try though, have a cookie.

[The Governator]

Pauravi wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Evidently I am being gravely misinterpreted. 

I definitely do not think that animals are anywhere near the level of people.  I think that Geth are far closer to people than animals are, and I still do not think Geth are people. 

People> Geth>.............................................................................................................animals

That still doesn't answer the question of what you consider to be a "person", and why the Geth are not people?

Defining a person in a few short words is impossible.  A person is an individual, that is or has the lifetime potential of being self aware, of learning morals, feeling emotions, expressing thoughts and understanding good versus evil beyond punitive consequences.  A person can offer comfort, compassion and communicate in ways words will never allow.  A person should have 'higher cognitive function' whether he/she is able to define what it is or not. 

Geth cannot do this.  animals cannot do this. 

[klossen4]

we are all geth.

[cronshaw8]

Any discussion of real world AI is irrelevant to this thread.

[GuardianAngel470]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Any discussion of real world AI is irrelevant to this thread.

I agree.  My point was to contradict his statement that because we can't do it in this world that it isn't possible to do it in the ME universe.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 09 mars 2010 - 08:39 .

[IamDanThaMan]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Bartlebyfinch wrote...

I'm making the assumption that "real people" as it's used here is synonymous for "intelligent organic beings" - a category that would also include Asari, Turians, Elcor, Krogan, Salarians, etc. If it is, I would offer that I do indeed consider Geth to be "real people." For me, determining who are "real people" is a fairly simple matter.

1. Are they self-aware, and do they deliberately question the nature of their existence?

2. Are they capable of calculus?



The whole organic / soul issue really isn't worth bringing up.  There is no right or wrong answer in that debate, and all arguing about it is going to accomplish is to ****** a lot of people off.

Congratulations, you are the umpteenth person to have that opinion about souls.  Regardless, they want to talk about it like it matters, and nothing any of us says is going to dissuade them. Nice try though, have a cookie.

If #2 is really a requirement, then I know a lot of people who are not really people.

[GuardianAngel470]

The Governator wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Evidently I am being gravely misinterpreted. 

I definitely do not think that animals are anywhere near the level of people.  I think that Geth are far closer to people than animals are, and I still do not think Geth are people. 

People> Geth>.............................................................................................................animals

That still doesn't answer the question of what you consider to be a "person", and why the Geth are not people?

Defining a person in a few short words is impossible.  A person is an individual, that is or has the lifetime potential of being self aware, of learning morals, feeling emotions, expressing thoughts and understanding good versus evil beyond punitive consequences.  A person can offer comfort, compassion and communicate in ways words will never allow.  A person should have 'higher cognitive function' whether he/she is able to define what it is or not. 

Geth cannot do this.  animals cannot do this. 

I would say to you that there is evidence that the geth can think as individuals, and that they are capable of emotion.  My evidence is when Legion is talking about his dyson sphere thing he says, "Then no geth would be alone."  Beings who are only capable of higher thought processes when they are linked together in groups cannot ever be alone.  To be one geth process would mean that they are incapable of understanding the meaning of the word, they'd just be a VI.  So how can a species incapable of understanding the meaning of the word alone when actually truly alone ever be alone?  My only answer is that geth mobile platforms when housing geth runtimes form some form of individuality.

The evidence suggesting the geth are capable of emotion is the conversation with legion about the n7 armor and the more revealing conversation with him after siding with tali.  In the former he displays clearly some form of embarassment, suggesting that he envies or looks up to Shepard.  In the latter his emotions are more clearly defined.  He feels dissapointed and somewhat angry with shep, and if you tell him that you were lying to tali he seems relieved.  All of those are complex emotions that you say he shouldn't have.

[Pauravi]

The Governator wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Evidently I am being gravely misinterpreted. 

I definitely do not think that animals are anywhere near the level of people.  I think that Geth are far closer to people than animals are, and I still do not think Geth are people. 

People> Geth>.............................................................................................................animals

That still doesn't answer the question of what you consider to be a "person", and why the Geth are not people?

Defining a person in a few short words is impossible.  A person is an individual, that is or has the lifetime potential of being self aware, of learning morals, feeling emotions, expressing thoughts and understanding good versus evil beyond punitive consequences.  A person can offer comfort, compassion and communicate in ways words will never allow.  A person should have 'higher cognitive function' whether he/she is able to define what it is or not. 

Geth cannot do this.  animals cannot do this. 

Well, I disagree that someone must have emotions, or be able to "offer comfort", or even learn morals in order to be a person.  Desirable traits, certainly... we may even call someone without those abilities a "bad person", but they are a person nonetheless.  But I suppose this is your definition.

That said, I see no reason why the Geth could not meet those conditions.  Legion already shows signs of having emotions and an understanding of morality, and he is only constructed of ~1100 Geth.  Millions of Geth networked together would have orders more complexity, and I have every reason to believe that they will meet every one of your criteria.

[Bartlebyfinch]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Bartlebyfinch wrote...

I'm making the assumption that "real people" as it's used here is synonymous for "intelligent organic beings" - a category that would also include Asari, Turians, Elcor, Krogan, Salarians, etc. If it is, I would offer that I do indeed consider Geth to be "real people." For me, determining who are "real people" is a fairly simple matter.

1. Are they self-aware, and do they deliberately question the nature of their existence?

2. Are they capable of calculus?



The whole organic / soul issue really isn't worth bringing up.  There is no right or wrong answer in that debate, and all arguing about it is going to accomplish is to ****** a lot of people off.

Congratulations, you are the umpteenth person to have that opinion about souls.  Regardless, they want to talk about it like it matters, and nothing any of us says is going to dissuade them. Nice try though, have a cookie.

If #2 is really a requirement, then I know a lot of people who are not really people.

Number 2 is a joke... sorta.  It's a semi-quote from Mordin, but one that I thought was pretty cool.  He used it as a benchmark for whether a species could be ethically experimented on.  Seems like sorta the same question to me.

By "capable" I meant "able to be taught" as well as "able to perform" and the statement is meant to be applied towards a species-wide average.  To quote Mordin (again) "outliers in all species... geniuses and idiots."

[Booglarize]

 Okay, what this thread needs is a working definition of the word "person", since a lot of the arguing seems to be based not on specific points of facts but rather, people talking past each other because they've started off from different premises. 
As a belated attempt to rectify this, I will provide the definition that I'm working with myself: I define a person as any being that is sentient. The Geth would seem to meet this requirement.

Now, following from this, if one were to disagree, one would have to show either that the Geth are not sentient, or that the definition of a person should include requirements other than that of sentience. Barring the demonstration of either of these things, I see no reason to exclude Geth, as they are presented in the game, from the category of "people". 

[Llandaryn]

badjezus007 wrote...

I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

So, what you're saying is that the geth are collections of base units (cells, making up larger components, which work together to function as a body), which require energy to survive, react to external stimuli, and have a means of self-propogation?

If I nuke a few plants and trees from orbit, that's not genocide, but it doesn't mean they're no less alive.

[badjezus007]

Geth. They do not have minds, brains, etc. Because of this they cannot feel anything, like pain or emotions. They can think, they can be logical, but only because they were programmed that way. Humans and other species in the galaxy can, which is why I believe geth cannot be treated like organics.

[Llandaryn]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth. They do not have minds, brains, etc. Because of this they cannot feel anything, like pain or emotions. They can think, they can be logical, but only because they were programmed that way. Humans and other species in the galaxy can, which is why I believe geth cannot be treated like organics.

I don't think they should be treated like organics either, but that doesn't mean they can't be treated with the respect owed to any other self-aware entity.

[Terraneaux]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth. They do not have minds, brains, etc. Because of this they cannot feel anything, like pain or emotions. They can think, they can be logical, but only because they were programmed that way. Humans and other species in the galaxy can, which is why I believe geth cannot be treated like organics.

Legion obviously has a stalker crush on Shepard.  That's definitely an emotion.  Geth can also judge right from wrong - the Heretics called Sovereign a 'god' which implies some sort of value judgment - it was worthy of being emulated.  The Geth also feel existential dread at being alone, and loneliness is pretty close to an emotion - to use the Bible for a minute, remember in Genesis when God sees Adam is alone, and judges it not to be good?  Geth have that same feeling of loneliness that we do.  

[Terraneaux]

Llandaryn wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth. They do not have minds, brains, etc. Because of this they cannot feel anything, like pain or emotions. They can think, they can be logical, but only because they were programmed that way. Humans and other species in the galaxy can, which is why I believe geth cannot be treated like organics.

I don't think they should be treated like organics either, but that doesn't mean they can't be treated with the respect owed to any other self-aware entity.

Yeah, the same way you can't treat a Salarian like a Human or an Asari.  Geth are a just another (radically) different species inhabiting the galaxy.  

[Maginipowfire]

Llandaryn wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth. They do not have minds, brains, etc. Because of this they cannot feel anything, like pain or emotions. They can think, they can be logical, but only because they were programmed that way. Humans and other species in the galaxy can, which is why I believe geth cannot be treated like organics.

I don't think they should be treated like organics either, but that doesn't mean they can't be treated with the respect owed to any other self-aware entity.

Well, after meeting Legion I would treat Geth better than I would treat Batarians. 

[Zemore]

why do we need to treat anyone on this forum like real people? i think thats a more reasonble question.

[Terraneaux]

Maginipowfire wrote...
Well, after meeting Legion I would treat Geth better than I would treat Batarians. 

/agree

[Booglarize]

Terraneaux wrote...

Maginipowfire wrote...
Well, after meeting Legion I would treat Geth better than I would treat Batarians. 

/agree

Or Vorcha. 

[cronshaw8]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...

Any discussion of real world AI is irrelevant to this thread.

I agree.  My point was to contradict his statement that because we can't do it in this world that it isn't possible to do it in the ME universe.

Right on. I don't like to incessantly quote and i had seen it referenced more than once so i just made a general statement.