330 réponses à ce sujet

[OverlordNexas]

Ah yes "souls," the immaterial or eternal part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body. We have dismissed this claim.

[Rebel_Guy]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

It's because we all watched Star Trek: The Next Generation. :-)

Seriously, I think that might be part of it... for me, it didn't even occur to me not to consider the geth as "real people" because I have this Star Trek background that shows how machines, robots, androids, etc can be individuals in their own right and can, in every way that counts, be just like us in terms of self awareness, learning, and even metaphysical thought (e.g. the geth asking if they have a soul).

The quarian treatment of the geth was, in my mind, horrible (though they didn't deserve what happened to them); it was the only time I got actually pissy with Tali in ME1. Perhaps they were created as tools, but Tali herself says the quarians realized the geth had gained self awareness. Rather than nurturing that self awareness and treating it as a new species (or, at the very least, an entirely new kind of mechanical entity), they tried to shut everything off and return it to the way it was.

Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

[Jagri]

Chris Griffin: (Speaking to Brian) Your a dog you have no soul!!!

Brian: Ouch...

[Throw_this_away]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

We are computers.  Action potentials (electric currents) run up and down our neurons (wires) and our brain (processor) interprets AP or no AP (0's and 1's) to interpret the world... control our limbs, etc. 

We are computers, but our processors and wires are made of organic materials... not silicon and the like (and some of us are made of a couple of those too).   

[Onyx Jaguar]

DarthCaine wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Besides what is "real people"

We might all just be figments of your imagination

Maybe we're in the Matrix

Someone is going to be in for a surprise

[Stephenc13]

Rebel_Guy wrote...
Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

But Legion traverses alone

[Onyx Jaguar]

Throw_this_away wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

We are computers.  Action potentials (electric currents) run up and down our neurons (wires) and our brain (processor) interprets AP or no AP (0's and 1's) to interpret the world... control our limbs, etc. 

We are computers, but our processors and wires are made of organic materials... not silicon and the like (and some of us are made of a couple of those too).   

Pretty much, the actual workings can be eerily similar

[GenericPlayer2]

What was that line by Shylock in the Merchant of Venice? Goes something like "Tickle us do we not laugh? Prickle us do we not bleed? Wrong us do we not avenge?". At least the Geth get 1 out of 3 of those things, and thats the most important one. The Geth have probably done enough harm to the Quarians to make up for the lack of the first 2 points

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 08 mars 2010 - 11:05 .

[RyrineaNara]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Big Yam wrote...

It's because we all watched Star Trek: The Next Generation.

heh Data crossed my mind when people on this board started going off how the Geth are real people. 

Quite frankly, I thought  Data and the whole idea about a robot finding it's humanity was played out twenty years ago.  The Star Trek admirals should have gotten their way and made an army of Datas to do all the dangerous work.

Actually, didn't they sort of play with that with the holographic doctor on Voyager? I seem to recall there being a plot thread about how the Federation was now using holograms and whatnot to do dangerous work like mining. 

Yeap, they did that with the doctor on voyager. 

[Rebel_Guy]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...
Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

But Legion traverses alone

When connected to the same network, they all think at the same time, legion being alone, knows everything the Geth knew at the time it left, and when it connects to their network again it gains everything that's happened or whatever since then.

[Dijohn17]

Good analogy here:



You create your child, but would you kill it for asking if it has a soul?

[Rebel_Guy]

Dijohn17 wrote...

Good analogy here:

You create your child, but would you kill it for asking if it has a soul?

Your child not a machine you created is asking if they have a soul, big difference.

[The Angry One]

Everybody who ever says "Maybe we're in the Matrix" should be subjected to electro-nipple torture until they recant.



In Latin.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Rebel_Guy wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...
Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

But Legion traverses alone

When connected to the same network, they all think at the same time, legion being alone, knows everything the Geth knew at the time it left, and when it connects to their network again it gains everything that's happened or whatever since then.

At the same time, though, doesn't Legion indicate that each "separate" geth process produce different opinions and conclusions, for lack of a better word? While I accept your point that they are not individuals, the fact that each process can take the same information but deliver a different conclusion suggests there is more "personality" here than meets the eye. If the geth were pure machine and based everything solely on logic, every process would produce the same answer, and Legion would not be conflicted about things like, say, the heretic reprogramming. If we extrapolate from this that "each" geth can have its own opinions (that are later gathered for a "consensus"), that seems to indicate some sort of individuality, or at least personality.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Angry One wrote...

Everybody who ever says "Maybe we're in the Matrix" should be subjected to electro-nipple torture until they recant.

In Latin.

I'm not saying I'm in the Matrix, I'm saying YOUR in the Matrix 

Or wheover is actually the sapient one

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 mars 2010 - 11:12 .

[RyrineaNara]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...
Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

But Legion traverses alone

When connected to the same network, they all think at the same time, legion being alone, knows everything the Geth knew at the time it left, and when it connects to their network again it gains everything that's happened or whatever since then.

At the same time, though, doesn't Legion indicate that each "separate" geth process produce different opinions and conclusions, for lack of a better word? While I accept your point that they are not individuals, the fact that each process can take the same information but deliver a different conclusion suggests there is more "personality" here than meets the eye. If the geth were pure machine and based everything solely on logic, every process would produce the same answer, and Legion would not be conflicted about things like, say, the heretic reprogramming. If we extrapolate from this that "each" geth can have its own opinions (that are later gathered for a "consensus"), that seems to indicate some sort of individuality, or at least personality.

To me that mean they are a single body not a whole network. 

[marshalleck]

Legion is both a geth collective (1,183 individual geth programs) and a mobile platform. You have to make a distinction there.

[The Benster]

Number Five is alive



Go watch Short Circuit, bro

[Daewan]

Rebel_Guy wrote...

Dijohn17 wrote...

Good analogy here:

You create your child, but would you kill it for asking if it has a soul?

Your child not a machine you created is asking if they have a soul, big difference.

It walks on its own, talks on its own, can create more of its own kind, and considers you the Creator.

What's the difference here?

If you refuse to consider that your actions might cause pain to someone else, no matter their origin or species, what does that make you?

[Rebel_Guy]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Rebel_Guy wrote...
Geth aren't individuals "We are geth"

But Legion traverses alone

When connected to the same network, they all think at the same time, legion being alone, knows everything the Geth knew at the time it left, and when it connects to their network again it gains everything that's happened or whatever since then.

At the same time, though, doesn't Legion indicate that each "separate" geth process produce different opinions and conclusions, for lack of a better word? While I accept your point that they are not individuals, the fact that each process can take the same information but deliver a different conclusion suggests there is more "personality" here than meets the eye. If the geth were pure machine and based everything solely on logic, every process would produce the same answer, and Legion would not be conflicted about things like, say, the heretic reprogramming. If we extrapolate from this that "each" geth can have its own opinions (that are later gathered for a "consensus"), that seems to indicate some sort of individuality, or at least personality.

Good point, and that reminds me Legion did say something like "Geth are not FULLY individual" meaning maybe a mix?

[Goth Skunk]

There are countless stories about man trying to play "God" and create life via unnatural means, synthetic and real. The Golem, Frankenstein, Terminator, Jurassic Park, just to name a few.

The geth were originally created to be little more than expendable super tools, used mainly for manual labour, mundane tasks, and possibly dangerous work like construction and/or mining. Rudimentary subroutines in their programming prevented them from expanding beyond their logical computaion capabilities. Everything they did was either YES or NO, DO or DO NOT, IF X THEN Y, IF NOT X, THEN NOT Y and so on. Through gradual tinkering and small modifications to their rudimentary code, Quarians eventually gave birth to the foundation of geth AI.

As Tali so eloquently put it, when one geth began asking questions of its overseer, "Am I alive? Why am I here? What is my function?" it caused a near panic amongst the Quarians themselves, and for good reason. There isn't a single person on Earth that enjoys subjugation, oppression, or slavery. And no slave would willingly choose to remain a slave if they were capable of overthrowing their master or overseer. Organic or synthetic.

In The Terminator, SKYNet became self aware of its capabilities and its superiority over humanity. It viewed humanity not as an equal, but as a threat to its existence. It decided humanity's fate in a microsecond: Extermination. And why not? It had control over all the computers, all the communications, all the WMDs. Who was going to stop it? Were it not for John Connor, it would have succeeded.

Compare that to the fate of the geth, who are physically superior to Quarians in every aspect, and intellectually superior to quarians when in close proximity to the neural net. Once geth realized that they were little more than tools and slaves to quarians, you can rest assured they wouldn't take it lying down. They would rise up, resist. At the very least, they would demand equal rights with quarians. At worst, they would determine that the universe would be better off without any quarians at all.

I completely see where the quarians would be worried about their own existence. At its core, sentient life is unpredictable. Coexistence with a race of synthetic artificial life forms would require a great deal of trust in them not deciding to simply eradicate every quarian on Homeworld. Trust that is flaky at best, especially considering geth physical and mental superiority compared to quarians. In interests of self preservation, when faced against a superior opponent, the best strategy is to strike first, fast, and hard to do the most damage possible before being forced to bear the brunt of retaliation. Which is exactly what the quarians did.

Now in Mass Effect 2, after encountering Legion, we're faced with a social dilemma. Personally, it sounds to me like geth ARE willing to peacefully co-exist with organic life, and that it was just the heretics who felt otherwise. If such coexistence is possible, every effort must be made to see it happen, which is what my main Shepard character is trying to explain to Tali.

On the other hand, where there is trust, there is also a risk of deception and treachery. There is a lingering thought in the back of my head... 'What if Legion is lying?' Don't be naive and think that just because it's a machine that it isn't capable of wilfully deceiving Shepard right to his/her face.

Modifié par Goth Skunk, 08 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[Madecologist]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

That's exactly what the Quarians thought... look where it got them. You do have a point, but not for the reason you listed. Killing the Heretics is not genocide, but only because you only destroy those in the station, remote platforms still surivie. The Heretics would be a subfaction of the Geth. So even if you destryoed every Heretic you only detroyed one faction.

[GuardianAngel470]

  This arguement about whether or not the geth are sapient is meaningless.  If the Devs wanted the geth to be known as non-sapient, they would have put them in the conveniently named Non-Sapient section of the ME1 Codex.  As it stands, they are in the Non-Council Races section.  This is what the Codex page says about the Geth:

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked AIs.  They were created by the Quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. When the geth showed signs of self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them.  The geth won the resulting war. This example has led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligences in galactic society.  

The geth possess a unique distributed intelligence. An individual has rudimentary animal instincts, but as their numbers and proximity increase, the apparent intelligence of each individual improves.  In groups, they can reason, analyze situations, and use tactics as well as any organic race.

Geth space is located at the trailing end of the Perseus Arm, beyond the lawless Terminus Systems.  The Perseus Veil, and obscuring 'dark nebula' of opaque gas and dust, lies between their space and the Terminus Systems."

Again, this was in the Non-Council Races section of the ME1 Codex.  ME2 adds the Geth Government and Culturesections to the Non-primary codex entries.  The devs say they are sapient, and they made the game.

[badjezus007]

People evolved. Ok. Geth did not evolve. They were created by people. They don't have feelings, a nervous system etc.. They are not alive. Geth can be programmed to do things (like we saw when u could rewrite the heritics). I don't hate geth. I don't mind having them around. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to him because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since he can't feel anything at all.