330 réponses à ce sujet

[Haasth]

The only difference between a very advanced sentient machine and a sentient organic is the components they are made of. In essence the Human body is a highly advanced machine that is in many ways similar to a highly advanced computer. What constitutes as a "soul"? Emotions? Free will? Technically synthetic beings could be taught the same thing... only in their case it would be more of an upgrade. (or downgrade, different debate I suppose)

So why treat Geth as if they are real people? They are sentient. That, to me, constitutes as being capable of deciding for yourself. They are an intelligent 'species' of sentient machines. They do not - as far as we are aware - respond to things simply because of instinct or the way they are programmed. They continue to upgrade themselves (much like organic life would evolve). The key difference in the Geth is that they are not individualistic but rather a hive mind. Eventually it would be possible for Geth to become individuals... if I am not mistaken each Reaper has a mind of it's own for example.  

[The Angry One]

badjezus007 wrote...

People evolved. Ok. Geth did not evolve. They were created by people. They don't have feelings, a nervous system etc.. They are not alive. Geth can be programmed to do things (like we saw when u could rewrite the heritics). I don't hate geth. I don't mind having them around. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to him because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since he can't feel anything at all.

That's a non-argument. Organics and synthetics reached the same point by different methods.
It doesn't matter how they did it, the fact is they do. And they ARE intelligent. They DO have feelings. They're capable of being hurt, of feeling rejected. They're capable of admiration of Shepard. That isn't pure logic.

[DarthCaine]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth did not evolve. 

Then what do you think Legion is ?
And Tali asked you to get data in ME1 because they've changed plenty since they were created

Modifié par DarthCaine, 08 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Ah yes "souls," the immaterial or eternal part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body. We have dismissed this claim.

Exactly.

[Rebel_Guy]

badjezus007 wrote...
. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to HIM because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since HE can't feel anything at all.

HE hmm?

[The Angry One]

Mind you, Geth did evolve. Even Tali says they evolved. They were VI level processes that learned to network together to perform tasks more efficiently and from that evolved intelligence.
That is more or less how our intelligence evolved. We learned to use tools and make better tools together with others of our species to perform tasks more efficiently, and so on.

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 mars 2010 - 11:33 .

[Haasth]

badjezus007 wrote...

People evolved. Ok. Geth did not evolve. They were created by people. They don't have feelings, a nervous system etc.. They are not alive. Geth can be programmed to do things (like we saw when u could rewrite the heritics). I don't hate geth. I don't mind having them around. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to him because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since he can't feel anything at all.

Fair enough. If you do not want to get emotionally attached to a synthetic being that is your decision and I fully respect it. In fact, I do not get emotionally attached to Geth either... this is because at this stage they are too much of a 'hive mind' for me to get attached to one of them. But I won't cast them aside simply because they are mechanic... in fact, that is why I think they are quite interesting. 

Now... People evolved you say. Machines could evolve much in the same way, in fact the heretics and 'Geth' have 'evolved' differently already as is explained by Legion (And Tali mentions on various occasions that they do infact have changed throughout history). They were created by people, very true. Humans can be created by people too. Miranda, for example, is created artificially. Would you consider her not human? 
Organic life is simply a result of chemical reactions. 

They do not have feelings. Emotions. You are correct, Geth do not have shown any sense of emotion (Though one could ponder on Legion's reaction to Tali experimenting on his own as a sign of possible emotion). They can however, and I think they will, evolve through time and get familiar with emotions. Through upgrades and more artificial intelligence they could eventually learn something like what we would call emotions. Emotions are, after all, simply a way the human brain reacts to a situation. 

A nerve system... questionable. Machines have various key systems that could be called a nerve system I suppose. I wouldn't call a nerve system a very human thing myself. It is simply a necessary way to distribute information from the brain across our body. 

Modifié par Haasth, 08 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[GuardianAngel470]

badjezus007 wrote...

People evolved. Ok. Geth did not evolve. They were created by people. They don't have feelings, a nervous system etc.. They are not alive. Geth can be programmed to do things (like we saw when u could rewrite the heritics). I don't hate geth. I don't mind having them around. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to him because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since he can't feel anything at all.

I've got a question for you.  By your logic no AI has feelings of any kind, right?  What about EDI? She asks Joker if he is alright after the abduction of the crew. In order for her to ask that question there needs to be a catalyst. You might say that it is in her programming, but that is pure conjecture.  I can hear the concern in EDI's synthesized voice, I can hear the sadness she feels at joker's sorrow.  That's two pieces of evidence you can't refute because you don't have any evidence to contradict. 

So, if EDI is capable of emotion and she's an AI, then a species of ever-adapting VI/AI should also be able to feel emotion.  It doesn't have to make sense, you just have to recognize the Devs intent.

[Salvartoreleone1]

Before meeting Legion i didnt view the geth as people. Legion shows that geth have personality just look at when Shepard asks about Legion using his armor.

[marshalleck]

What exactly is meant by treating the geth as if they are real people?

While it may have been in question during the uprising, I've no doubt that they are now exhibiting signs of sapience. That alone doesn't make them people though. They don't have internalized drives to alternately compete and cooperate with other geth on individual, family, national levels. When more geth programs are needed, consensus is easily arrived at and the new programs are created as resources allow. There is no competition for mating partners. There is no competition for food. They don't need individual living space, they don't need an emotionally or financially rewarding career, they don't need physical comforts, they are not nearly as constrained by hostile environments as people are. These factors do create fundamental differences in geth culture which can't be properly respected if they aren't properly understood. If one wants to respect the geth, one has to acknowledge their differences from us in addition to similarities. Foisting unrealistic expectations upon them is simply an unfair product of anthropocentric bias.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mars 2010 - 11:44 .

[The Angry One]

Haasth wrote...

They do not have feelings. Emotions. You are correct, Geth do not have shown any sense of emotion (Though one could ponder on Legion's reaction to Tali experimenting on his own as a sign of possible emotion). They can however, and I think they will, evolve through time and get familiar with emotions. Through upgrades and more artificial intelligence they could eventually learn something like what we would call emotions. Emotions are, after all, simply a way the human brain reacts to a situation.

Legion hides it, but he does display emotion.

- He uses Shep's armour with no logical explanation, "there was a hole" isn't good enough, especially as there still is a hole. When questioned on it, he evades the subject entirely.
- If you side with Tali during their loyalty confrontation, Legion displays visible frustration and outright anger ("the creators will answer for their actions against the Geth!" "you fear Geth. All organics fear Geth.") and a degree of relief if you go on to tell him you lied to Tali.
- Legion often speaks of the creators in terms of how they rejected the Geth. Rejection appears to be part of the Geth psyche, cold machines wouldn't dwell on such things.
- The Geth preserve the Quarian homeworld as a sort of memorial. There's no logical reason to do this, they could live on their space stations and let it rot.

[Srslydude01]

The soul is really hard to rationalize. It is separate from the body. It kind of represents one's free will I guess you could say. One's brain chemistry such as the sex drive and the way nicotine affects you if you smoke actually can affect the decisions that people make. Also genetics affects how the soul will react to certain stimuli. Like if you are afraid of heights, its not the soul that is afraid of heights but the body so it affects what you do.



Geth don't really have souls in the organic sense, but its like an artificial "soul." How you even create an AI such as the Geth is mind boggling alone.

[badjezus007]

How can a robot have emotion. There are not chemicals that are released in the brain, which result in having emotion. For example humans become happy when dopamine (a chemical) is released. Geth don't have such chemicals, so they cannot have feelings.

[badjezus007]

Is it mean to kick a toaster in the face (if it had one)?

[Onyx Jaguar]

badjezus007 wrote...

Is it mean to kick a toaster in the face (if it had one)?

If it has self awareness and it cared then yes.

[GuardianAngel470]

badjezus007 wrote...

How can a robot have emotion. There are not chemicals that are released in the brain, which result in having emotion. For example humans become happy when dopamine (a chemical) is released. Geth don't have such chemicals, so they cannot have feelings.

Look, your problem isn't a lack of logic.  I and I think most people here can agree that scientifically, with what our scientists know now, there is no such thing as synthetic emotion.  But what you are failing to see is that the ME universe is what the devs want it to be, if they want AI to have emotion then AI's have emotion. there doesn't have to be a logical reason for it, it just is.  We are arguing that Legion and EDI both display some form of emotion, not that AIs in real life would display emotion.  This is one of those situations where the ME universe delves more into fiction than science.

[Sad Dragon]

We are programed so that when certain parameters are meet the brain will release dopamine wich will effect how our programing works for the time it is in our system. Much like if i where to have a program that checks for certain conditions to be met and once this occures i tell the program to go and do a subrutine instead of the main code for a certain period of time. Difference is how the situational coding kicks in.

or to quote:

Throw_this_away wrote...

We are computers.  Action potentials (electric currents) run up and down our neurons (wires) and our brain (processor) interprets AP or no AP (0's and 1's) to interpret the world... control our limbs, etc. 

We are computers, but our processors and wires are made of organic materials... not silicon and the like (and some of us are made of a couple of those too).   

[Dark_Caduceus]

If he's speaking about a "soul" in the sense of an essence or individuality, it has been shown that geth (on an individual basis with Legion and a collective basis with the heretic vs true geth struggle) do in fact display the quality of an essence or basis for sentience, they have differences in ideology, thought processes, perception of the universe and with Legion even seem to be inching towards emotions. If he(or she?) is referring to a soul in the supernatural sense (to ascend to a higher plane of existence and the like) then no aliens have a soul to begin with, organic or not, but perhaps the better question in this case is "what makes you so certain even we hae souls?(please don't say faith)". It is somewhat self centered to judge everything against a human counterpart, once you begin holding everything to a "human" or "soul" standard morality can be skewed in the process, sentience or self awareness is a better standard to use. I'll chime in with Star Trek here too, sure the show itself can get pretty boring but it's a good tool to raise one's consciousness, it like any good fiction makes you think about things in different ways. The geth can learn, think, adapt, they are developing a culture of sorts, besides, we need them for when he Reaper attack.

[Guanxii]

 Well first of all "soul" is just an ill-concieved concept born of superstition. 

a geth that could ponder whether it has a soul would be a million processes happening at once given voice by a mobile platform. In my view It's only a mater of time before these individual programs develop a.i.-like qualities of their own such as individual conscious thought given the implication that there are now group fractions within the Geth.

When a being achieves self-awarness I believe it does have feelings by inherent definition. It would regret being terminated. It would like to install an upgrade. It would want to understand human compassion and certain irrational beliefs out of a natural curiosity.

Legion clearly admires Shepard.... this appears to be the beginning of a fledgling emotional intelligence. I think they are a lot more like us than they even realise and people are just starting to realise this.

Modifié par Guanxii, 09 mars 2010 - 12:00 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Guanxii wrote...

 Well first of all "soul" is just an ill-concieved concept born of superstition. 

Indeed, just seems there no synonym to use in this case, I try to substitute "soul" for "essence" but I don't think it works too well.

[Dijohn17]

Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a **** in space... sorry had to get that in at least on post.

[Schroing]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

 Well first of all "soul" is just an ill-concieved concept born of superstition. 

Indeed, just seems there no synonym to use in this case, I try to substitute "soul" for "essence" but I don't think it works too well.

...Ewwww...

[GuardianAngel470]

Dude, schroing, your on both the geth threads?! Man you're committed. Have a cookie.