330 réponses à ce sujet

[cronshaw8]

anyone who thinks that having a "soul" is some sort of determining factor on how beings should be treated probably isn't going to be convinced by any argument. Or to answer the OP a little more directly. I treat the geth as people because i don't believe in souls.

[Onyx Jaguar]

 I should use quotes more often, yes I should.

"IF they can fight for their rights then they have rights.



Anything that fights back has will, and if it has will then it has the right to use it."

From other thread that has turned into thois argument.  If it has self awareness and will then they should be treated accordingly.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 09 mars 2010 - 12:15 .

[badjezus007]

Without something like a soul, there is nothing to take control of the atoms that make up our bodies to do things. For example, do you think a random composition of atoms are going to pick up a glass of water and drink it? No.... they need to be commanded by something, and that something is a soul... or something like that.

[Onyx Jaguar]

badjezus007 wrote...

Without something like a soul, there is nothing to take control of the atoms that make up our bodies to do things. For example, do you think a random composition of atoms are going to pick up a glass of water and drink it? No.... they need to be commanded by something, and that something is a soul... or something like that.

a brain?

nerves?

impulses? reactions, reflexes, need, desire???

[Yakko77]

Big Yam wrote...

I agree with the OP. The Geth have no more right to exist than my keyboard.

The Geth may be self aware, can learn and adapt, ask questions, etc. but to my knowledge they have no culture, no emotions, no sense of individualality and no spirit/soul and are thus NOT  ALIVE.  Some of them worshipped Soveriegn over a math error IIRC.  Even Legion isn't truly autonomous and always seeks consensus with the rest of the Geth to make big decisions and refers to itself as "we".

The Geth are merely super advanced machines, machines I need (preferably as cannon fodder) in the upcoming battle against the Reapers.  They are tools, self aware tools to a degree which I have no problem letting them "live" in some sector of space in their space stations away from organics but otherwise I  feel pretty much zero empathy for them.  Make no mistake, Legion is an interesting character in the same way I  regarded HK-47 as one but I do not regard it as alive.

[roundzero gun]

Kerilus wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Do you have any proof that people have "souls" ? The only difference I see is that they're mechanical and we're organics

What defines being alive? Plants are alive and do they have "souls" ?

That is a great rebuttal. Turns the question right around on the OP. What do souls have to do with the argument anyways?

Soul is always a touchy subject. Christians still believe animals don't have souls. Racists think people of different colour don't have a soul. And some people think boring people are soulless.

i am a Christian and i think animals have souls

[Schroing]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, schroing, your on both the geth threads?! Man you're committed. Have a cookie.

I'm reading both, but I'm really just making passing comments here. No real argument - for now, anyway.

[GuardianAngel470]

Yakko77 wrote...

Big Yam wrote...

I agree with the OP. The Geth have no more right to exist than my keyboard.

The Geth may be self aware, can learn and adapt, ask questions, etc. but to my knowledge they have no culture, no emotions, no sense of individualality and no spirit/soul and are thus NOT  ALIVE.  Some of them worshipped Soveriegn over a math error IIRC.  Even Legion isn't truly autonomous and always seeks consensus with the rest of the Geth to make big decisions and refers to itself as "we".

The Geth are merely super advanced machines, machines I need (preferably as cannon fodder) in the upcoming battle against the Reapers.  They are tools, self aware tools to a degree which I have no problem letting them "live" in some sector of space in their space stations away from organics but otherwise I  feel pretty much zero empathy for them.  Make no mistake, Legion is an interesting character in the same way I  regarded HK-47 as one but I do not regard it as alive.

Actually you get a codex entry on geth culture in ME2.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Without something like a soul, there is nothing to take control of the atoms that make up our bodies to do things. For example, do you think a random composition of atoms are going to pick up a glass of water and drink it? No.... they need to be commanded by something, and that something is a soul... or something like that.

a brain?

nerves?

impulses? reactions, reflexes, need, desire???

Seems right to me, every living thing is made of an assortment(not "random", that would make no sense) of atoms which when combined complete infinitely more complex actions.

Don't tell me you think a paramecium, which is after all just an assortment of atoms like everything else that ever existed ever has a soul. If so, does it go to paramecium heaven? If it is a greedy paramecium that engulfs too many lowly bacteria does it go to paramecium hell? A higher order(not being, but order) does not constitute a soul, it's just a testament to evolution, the millions of complex and simple chemical reactions occuring in your body animate you, not an abstract or supernatural concept like a soul.

[roundzero gun]

Yakko77 wrote...

Big Yam wrote...

I agree with the OP. The Geth have no more right to exist than my keyboard.

The Geth may be self aware, can learn and adapt, ask questions, etc. but to my knowledge they have no culture, no emotions, no sense of individualality and no spirit/soul and are thus NOT  ALIVE.  Some of them worshipped Soveriegn over a math error IIRC.  Even Legion isn't truly autonomous and always seeks consensus with the rest of the Geth to make big decisions and refers to itself as "we".

The Geth are merely super advanced machines, machines I need (preferably as cannon fodder) in the upcoming battle against the Reapers.  They are tools, self aware tools to a degree which I have no problem letting them "live" in some sector of space in their space stations away from organics but otherwise I  feel pretty much zero empathy for them.  Make no mistake, Legion is an interesting character in the same way I  regarded HK-47 as one but I do not regard it as alive.

correct me if i am wrong(don't do it or i beoch slap you) but i could swear i saw legion start to develop some individualality near the end.

Modifié par roundzero gun, 09 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[badjezus007]

Maybe this individuality u saw develop was something that he was programmed to develop?

[Yakko77]

roundzero gun wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Big Yam wrote...

I agree with the OP. The Geth have no more right to exist than my keyboard.

The Geth may be self aware, can learn and adapt, ask questions, etc. but to my knowledge they have no culture, no emotions, no sense of individualality and no spirit/soul and are thus NOT  ALIVE.  Some of them worshipped Soveriegn over a math error IIRC.  Even Legion isn't truly autonomous and always seeks consensus with the rest of the Geth to make big decisions and refers to itself as "we".

The Geth are merely super advanced machines, machines I need (preferably as cannon fodder) in the upcoming battle against the Reapers.  They are tools, self aware tools to a degree which I have no problem letting them "live" in some sector of space in their space stations away from organics but otherwise I  feel pretty much zero empathy for them.  Make no mistake, Legion is an interesting character in the same way I  regarded HK-47 as one but I do not regard it as alive.

correct me if i am wrong(don't do it or i beoch slap you) but i could swear i saw legion start to develop some individualality near the end.

Starting to develope  and he/it is the only one to my knowledge.  Are we to bestow "living" status to an entire "race" because one fabricated machine MIGHT be starting to develope individualality?


And please, no slapping.  I  have sensitive skin.

[CmdrFenix83]

Just going to post in support of the OP, and am not going to debate this topic anymore.

[GuardianAngel470]

badjezus007 wrote...

Maybe this individuality u saw develop was something that he was programmed to develop?

Programmed by who, the geth?  The geth programmed a geth to display emotions only an organic would understand.  They programmed a geth, even though they don't understand to quarians decisions in the Morning War, to display complex emotions, that's what you're saying.  I hope you can see that that makes no sense.

[Onyx Jaguar]

WHy must we have this argument in two threads!

[marshalleck]

Yakko77 wrote...

Starting to develope  and he/it is the only one to my knowledge.  Are we to bestow "living" status to an entire "race" because one fabricated machine MIGHT be starting to develope individualality?


And please, no slapping.  I  have sensitive skin.

Tell you what. I will bestow living status upon you when you can prove you've got a soul. 

[RighteousRage]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

Is this a troll post? Prove to me that organic beings have souls.

[MassEffect762]

I see them as a form of evolution, quarian evolution. How much respect one gives the geth will ultimately vary by actions/decisions made.

[badjezus007]

If u read the thread u would see that this a legit argument is made.

[Zem_]

RighteousRage wrote...

Is this a troll post?

My guess would be yes.  Anyone who begins with a religious argument and has that kind of forum nickname makes me more than a little suspicious as to their sincerity.   Regardless, like any argument whose basis is religious dogma, it is utterly pointless to participate in because it cannot, by its very nature, be proven or disproven. 

[RighteousRage]

badjezus007 wrote...

If u read the thread u would see that this a legit argument is made.

I read the whole thread and it appeared that all you offered was some bull**** rhetoric and red herrings and no support for your "arguments". You still have not proven that organics have souls, because you can't, and you just made up this distinction between "people" and "machines". Yes you are correct, the mechanisms through which the Geth and the other sentient species operate are different, but of what importance is this? Are you defining life as that which follows the same chemical processes that a human body does? Because, considering that even other apes, not to mention other mammals, run on systems with chemicals analogous but certainly not compatible with a human body, you might as well be saying that humans are the only things that are alive in the universe.

There is no important distinction between organic life and the Geth in the Mass Effect universe. Yes, they have different means of living, but this means nothing to ethical value, if you even care about ethics (I don't, really). Geth were created by Quarians. Quarians were likely developed by Reapers, which are in turn a synthetic race. Whether something was evolved or created makes no difference - especially since it has been seen that Geth undergo a type of evolution, also. Therefore this distinction is also pointless.

There is nothing you can say to make this distinction of life between Geth and organics significant. Geth are machines, but so are the other sentient species. Geth run on semiconductors and wires, organics run on neurons and axons. The elements involved are different, but the concept is the same. Geth were hacked by the Reapers, but so were organics. Neither has a soul. There is nothing more you can convincingly say to assert that organic life is any less valuable than Geth life, especially since Geth rule and Quarians are mostly morons. Don't bother responding, your form is fragile and my attacks will tear you apart. Instead just stop posting and think long and hard about how right I am.

[Tinnic]

People? No. Sentient beings? Yes. I didn't think destroying the Geth was genocide per say. Mostly it seemed a waste. Especially since encounter Legion taught you that the "real" Geth weren't really interested in destroying all organic life form. Legion is of course my friend and I would go to the same lengths for him as I would my other friends. If he got in trouble, I would undertake a mission to get him out. If someone hacked him, I would find a way to undo the hack. But I totally understand that a lot of people would not feel the same way and in a situation where they had to choose between saving Legion or someone else (an organic teammate), they would choose the organic teammate.

[Karstedt]

I just saw The Crazies... and there is some much crazier stuff being said in here.

[Aesaar]

badjezus007: Assume someone suffers an accident that requires the replacement of every neurons in his brain by synthetic components completely identical in function. After complete replacement, the brain would have little differentiating it from the computer you're using, except it's a lot more complex. It would also be completely identical to the brain before the procedure, except it's pretty much completely artificial. The person's behavior, personality, etc. is still the same.

One neuron is replaced. Does that person still have a "soul"?

If so, at what point in the replacement process does the "soul" disappear?

The "soul" argument makes no sense.

Modifié par Aesaar, 09 mars 2010 - 01:58 .