330 réponses à ce sujet

[GethHead]

I won't make accusations, but is the argument of whether they have souls or not really valid? At all? In ANY way? It doesnt have anything to do with the storyline or purpose of the game. The question of a sould plays no part in how you are meant to see them. It's not trying to make a religious question out of it. Only you can do that. And if you let personal opinions like that to get you so upset over a game, well then how much fun can you possibly have playing it? It cheapens the experience.

[JThompson6577]

Big Yam wrote...

I agree with the OP. The Geth have no more right to exist than my keyboard.

 

Your keyboard is self-aware?  That is awesome!

[Weskerr]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

Neither being a person nor being a machine is criterion for determining whether or not something is alive. Having a soul is also irrelevant - it is a metaphysical question and does not have a place in science.

Modifié par Weskerr, 09 mars 2010 - 02:32 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

People treat Geth like real people? They are still machines, useful perhaps in the case of Legion, but machines regardless.

Problem is that Quarian incompetence means that they would likely fail at retaking their homeworld, and who is to say the main Geth force won't go on the offensive sometime?

Modifié par ReconTeam, 09 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[A.N.A.N]

Aesaar wrote...

badjezus007: Assume someone suffers an accident that requires the replacement of every neurons in his brain by synthetic components completely identical in function. After complete replacement, the brain would have little differentiating it from the computer you're using, except it's a lot more complex. It would also be completely identical to the brain before the procedure, except it's pretty much completely artificial. The person's behavior, personality, etc. is still the same.

Someone like say, Commander Shepard? Miranda outright states that synthetic components were used to make the project run faster and cheaper.

Modifié par A.N.A.N, 09 mars 2010 - 02:55 .

[Throw_this_away]

badjezus007 wrote...

People evolved. Ok. Geth did not evolve. They were created by people. They don't have feelings, a nervous system etc.. They are not alive. Geth can be programmed to do things (like we saw when u could rewrite the heritics). I don't hate geth. I don't mind having them around. Legion is pretty cool, but I am not going to become emotionally attached to him because I know that he is just a machine, who couldn't possibly feel the same way about me, since he can't feel anything at all.

Computers evolve all of the time.  Ever use voice recognition? 

Babies are created by people too. 

What is a feeling but a designed stereotypical physiological/emotional response?  When a computer gets hot... on goes a fan.  A window pops up warning you that your computer is overheating.  Could that be a primitive emotion/physiological response? 

Humans can be programmed to do things... that is called education, brainwashing if you want to get extreme. Babies only fear snakes because we teach them to.  

What does it mean to feel?  Electric currents running in the wires in your body going to the processor in your head as little 0's and 1's that say "soft"  or "cold" or whatever. 

[DuffyMJ]

Flamewielder wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

[*cough* Fixed for offensiveness. <_<

I admit my Isaac Asimov is not what it should be - read some of him when I was a teenager but not recently. So yes, probably he's a better example. Having said that, he contributed a lot to Star Trek in terms of how it envisions mechanical beings, so it's not like one is bad and one is good... they're both coming from the same place.

Asimov's Bicentenial Man centers precisely on this debate, so add it to the list along with Turing's papers on artificial intelligence. AND Asimov was a good friend of Gene Roddenbery, by the way...

Robin WIlliams robot fart jokes, awesome. 

[CrookedAsylum]

Ecael wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

Shepard, Legion appears to be troubled and would like to talk to you. He is waiting anxiously in your private cabin.

In addition, he has replaced the picture of your former teammate, Liara T'Soni, with a picture of himself.

Oh dear.
He's not up there wit Thane, is he?

[CrookedAsylum]

The Angry One wrote...

Everybody who ever says "Maybe we're in the Matrix" should be subjected to electro-nipple torture until they recant.

In Latin.

I hope Latin grammar structure counts.
Because if that's the case, then I can just copy Yoda.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I don't consider any computer network I work on to be a living being. So why should I consider Geth to be alive. They are far more advanced but they are still a bunch of networked computers lacking any real free-will. As much as one can try to simulate intelligent life, I believe there is always a line, a divide.



Everybody's favorite Terminator was a badass too. A "learning computer" kinda like the whole Geth network. Yet at it's core it is still a machine and Shepard would like to point out that machines can be broken.

[TomBmbadil]

Im almost always Paragon in all my decisions, it's just who I am, but when people say the Quarians got they deserved for trying to power off a bunch of computers, and yes I get they are sentient, It makes me pretty mad. The Geth could have contacted the Quarians and asked them to surrender or sign a peace treaty but instead they wiped out 99% of their population and thats genocide, se yeah I basically compare the Geth to evil space ****s

[DJ Doc]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

Proof to me that there is this soul you're talking about next proof to me that you have one next proof that for all fictional "poeple" in the ME universe and maybe I'll consider to do the same for Geth when I'm bored enough

[CrookedAsylum]

ReconTeam wrote...

I don't consider any computer network I work on to be a living being. So why should I consider Geth to be alive. They are far more advanced but they are still a bunch of networked computers lacking any real free-will. As much as one can try to simulate intelligent life, I believe there is always a line, a divide.

Everybody's favorite Terminator was a badass too. A "learning computer" kinda like the whole Geth network. Yet at it's core it is still a machine and Shepard would like to point out that machines can be broken.

Ah, but see, that is where you are wrong. The Geth ended up dividing into two different groups because they saw things differently, and chose to react differently to their perceptions. If they truly lacked any free will, then not only would there be general consensus, there would be a lack of advancement.

The Geth - I'm talking of the group - chose to ignore Sovereign. Why? If they were truly just networked computers, working toward their advancement due to programming, why would they not accept Sovereign's offer of technology? Because they wanted to do things their own way. Legion even says so.

They may not be 'living' in the traditional sense, but they are certainly sentient. And Legion, at the very least, has the rudiments of emotions.

Shepard: Why are you wearing my armor? Why didn't you replace it?

Legion: There was a hole.

Shepard: And? Why didn't you patch it up with something more sound, later?

Legion: ...No data available.

(Totally butchered that convo, but I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere.)

He admires Shepard.

And then there was his loyalty mission, where Legion engages Shepard with conversation, asking in a very naive and quiet voice about, "Where did we go wrong?" A machine would not contemplate wrong, not like that. A machine would be aiming for data errors, and there was no data error that led to the Heretics to worship Sovereign. Legion was startled that things have degraded so terribly between the Geth and the Heretics. And later on, he leaves the fate of the Heretics up to Shepard, stating that the runtimes(programs?) have not reached a consensus. Opinions, even among the Geth.

Sentience is awesome.

I'mma go back to my nonsensical ramblings now. As if this post was any different.

Modifié par CrookedAsylum, 09 mars 2010 - 03:27 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

Any argument that synthetics can't have consciousness is easy to shoot down, not only because of our lack of definition regarding its existence, but because we cannot perceive any consciousness besides our own. I think it is telling that we try so hard to make our "souls" unique. I believe it is the fear of the underlying notion that our consciousness is simple. Think about it: 90% of what you do in a day relates to promoting your survival or genetic code when viewed through a cynic's eye, and the other 10% that we regard as "higher intelligence" (self, existence, calculus) is simply an incentive for survival.



We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

[CrookedAsylum]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

Or do we?~

Modifié par CrookedAsylum, 09 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[DJ Doc]

ReconTeam wrote...

I don't consider any computer network I work on to be a living being. So why should I consider Geth to be alive. They are far more advanced but they are still a bunch of networked computers lacking any real free-will. As much as one can try to simulate intelligent life, I believe there is always a line, a divide.

There we got it you believe, thats typical human "oh I don't wont to think about it I just find faith and this will make my headache go away"

We always should ask ourselfs if, based on proofen and quantified facts, something is true or false and when we have to admit that we don't know we can assume something and re evaluate as soon as we get new facts.

[MyChemicalBromance]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

Or do we?~

Yes. If you repeatedly stomp your foot between an ant and food, he will approach the food and get squashed. You might say it's because he isn't intelligent enough to perceive what's happenning, but doesn't that make this an example of intelligence being the same as self preservation?

I propose that mindset can applied to the height of our knowledge.

[CrookedAsylum]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

Or do we?~

Yes. If you repeatedly stomp your foot between an ant and food, he will approach the food and get squashed. You might say it's because he isn't intelligent enough to perceive what's happenning, but doesn't that make this an example of intelligence being the same as self preservation?

I propose that mindset can applied to the height of our knowledge.

Nah man, I agree. I just felt like posting something that added absolutely nothing to this topic.

[slyguy07]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I don't have a soul

Serious.

Meh save that for theological debates.

[MyChemicalBromance]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

Or do we?~

Yes. If you repeatedly stomp your foot between an ant and food, he will approach the food and get squashed. You might say it's because he isn't intelligent enough to perceive what's happenning, but doesn't that make this an example of intelligence being the same as self preservation?

I propose that mindset can applied to the height of our knowledge.

Nah man, I agree. I just felt like posting something that added absolutely nothing to this topic.

Now that's difficult to explain... without being insulting.

[CrookedAsylum]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


We might not like to think of our ability to reflect as evolution's carrot on a stick, but it's obvious a creature such as us has a greater interest in self preservation than an ant drone.

Or do we?~

Yes. If you repeatedly stomp your foot between an ant and food, he will approach the food and get squashed. You might say it's because he isn't intelligent enough to perceive what's happenning, but doesn't that make this an example of intelligence being the same as self preservation?

I propose that mindset can applied to the height of our knowledge.

Nah man, I agree. I just felt like posting something that added absolutely nothing to this topic.

Now that's difficult to explain... without being insulting.

Eh, insult away. You had a good point, dude.

[jasonontko]

What if there is no "soul" and we are all merely a series chemcial reactions that occur in the brain? If that be the case, then we are no different than the geth, only they use circuitry instead of organic tissue.

You might say that is far fetched but if I take a peice of your brain or change it, you will become a different person then you are currently. There are numerious examples in medcine where brain injury lead to personality changes. Furthermore many of us use chemicals that slightly alter the chemical responses in the brain leading us to do, think or say things we ordinarily would not do.

You might also say none this matters because of God. Of course that justification has been used to justify everything a human ever thought was right and there are those like myself that think that it is very unlikely God exists.

That is why alot of people think of the Geth as living.

Modifié par jasonontko, 09 mars 2010 - 04:06 .

[slyguy07]

Kerilus wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Do you have any proof that people have "souls" ? The only difference I see is that they're mechanical and we're organics

What defines being alive? Plants are alive and do they have "souls" ?

That is a great rebuttal. Turns the question right around on the OP. What do souls have to do with the argument anyways?

Soul is always a touchy subject. Christians still believe animals don't have souls. Racists think people of different colour don't have a soul. And some people think boring people are soulless.

Lol yeah our species is a rather curious, if diverse group.

[FoxMcKalen]

jasonontko wrote...

...and there are those like myself that think that it is very unlikely God exists. That is why alot of people think of the Geth as living.

Not really. I'm Christian, yet I consider the geth to be alive. Merely a different form of life, created by different means, evolving in different ways.

I don't believe a "soul" is required for something to be alive. Clearly, neither do a lot of people I've known. Most people where I live seem to think that animals don't have souls, yet I'd love to meet someone who seriously claims that animals aren't living things because of it. It would give me a just cause to call someone an idiot.