330 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

jasonontko wrote...
 Maybe you behave like a very advance computer and you just dont know it.

What suggests that the Geth are able to think on a philisophical level? They try to understand humans and organic races, and perform experiments relating to such issues, but I don't see anything to suggest they can think beyond a pattern a machine would take.

And if you find such a computer it should be running my games at max graphical detail and not pondering the nature of man.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 09 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[Pauravi]

Tinnic wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

People? No. Sentient beings? Yes.

What is the distinction you're making between the two?

Well
Geth are not a collection of individuals per say. As displayed by
Legion's inability (in the beginning) to understand the concept of
individuality. So they can't be "people" because that denotes a
collection of individuals. They are all "Geth", more or less one
entity. What that also means is that, with the sole exception of
Legion, destroying a mobile platform of the Geth is not the same as
destroying a person: a Human, an Asari, a Turian etc, etc.

Ah, I get your meaning.  Yes I agree with that assessment.  It's
a sticky wicket, though, because all you really need is for enough of
them to congregate in one place and then disconnect from the network
(like Legion) before it really does become possible to call an
individual platform a "person".  The Geth present some interesting
issues

ReconTeam wrote...

Pauravi wrote...
Your brain is a bunch of networked neurons.  The difference between a computer network and your brain or  a Geth is simply one of degrees of complexity.  Can you quantify what that divide is?  Or why you believe that?  Or is it just an idea that you're invested in regardless of evidence?

Regardless of evidence? Obviously you would fit in fine with the Geth judging from your behavior but brain chemestry does not equate to evidence in your favor and against my view that there is something more than lines of code in a brain that makes us human.

I didn't say that it was, I was simply drawing a parallel.  What IS correct about what I said is that neurons form a complex network that forms the basis of our thought patterns.

However, what I asked was why you believed that there was a fundamental divide.  You still haven't answered, all you did was say "theres no evidence for your theory, either!".  But I'm not the one that made the assertion of there being a divide, so I don't need evidence.  You don't get to assume that your position is correct by default.  The fact is that you're still basing that belief on nothing in particular.

Ignoring the entire philosophical and theological issues surrounding life doesn't make your stance correct

Whether my stance is incorrect or not has nothing to do with the basis for your own beliefs.  You're just dodging the question.

If I am invested in anything it is that we shouldn't try to behave like computers.

That isn't what you said at first, and it isn't what I asked you.  In fact, it is a meaningless statement.  Nobody is arguing that we should "behave like computers".  What would that even mean, anyway?

[jasonontko]

ReconTeam wrote...

jasonontko wrote...
 Maybe you behave like a very advance computer and you just dont know it.

What suggests that the Geth are able to think on a philisophical level? They try to understand humans and organic races, and perform experiments relating to such issues, but I don't see anything to suggest they can think beyond a pattern a machine would take.

And if you find such a computer it should be running my games at max graphical detail and not pondering the nature of man.

Their self aware,  They believe in self-determination.  They dont want to die.   

[GuardianAngel470]

Pauravi wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

People? No. Sentient beings? Yes.

What is the distinction you're making between the two?

Well
Geth are not a collection of individuals per say. As displayed by
Legion's inability (in the beginning) to understand the concept of
individuality. So they can't be "people" because that denotes a
collection of individuals. They are all "Geth", more or less one
entity. What that also means is that, with the sole exception of
Legion, destroying a mobile platform of the Geth is not the same as
destroying a person: a Human, an Asari, a Turian etc, etc.

Ah, I get your meaning.  Yes I agree with that assessment.  It's
a sticky wicket, though, because all you really need is for enough of
them to congregate in one place and then disconnect from the network
(like Legion) before it really does become possible to call an
individual platform a "person".  The Geth present some interesting
issues

ReconTeam wrote...

Pauravi wrote...
Your brain is a bunch of networked neurons.  The difference between a computer network and your brain or  a Geth is simply one of degrees of complexity.  Can you quantify what that divide is?  Or why you believe that?  Or is it just an idea that you're invested in regardless of evidence?

Regardless of evidence? Obviously you would fit in fine with the Geth judging from your behavior but brain chemestry does not equate to evidence in your favor and against my view that there is something more than lines of code in a brain that makes us human.

I didn't say that it was, I was simply drawing a parallel.  What IS correct about what I said is that neurons form a complex network that forms the basis of our thought patterns.

However, what I asked was why you believed that there was a fundamental divide.  You still haven't answered, all you did was say "theres no evidence for your theory, either!".  But I'm not the one that made the assertion of there being a divide, so I don't need evidence.  You don't get to assume that your position is correct by default.  The fact is that you're still basing that belief on nothing in particular.

Ignoring the entire philosophical and theological issues surrounding life doesn't make your stance correct

Whether my stance is incorrect or not has nothing to do with the basis for your own beliefs.  You're just dodging the question.

If I am invested in anything it is that we shouldn't try to behave like computers.

That isn't what you said at first, and it isn't what I asked you.  In fact, it is a meaningless statement.  Nobody is arguing that we should "behave like computers".  What would that even mean, anyway?

On the subject of geth not being individuals, the last bit of dialog with legion gives me a nagging sensation.  He says that the dyson sphere being built would mean that NO GETH WOULD BE ALONE, kinda sorta implying that there is some individuality there that the geth aren't ready to acknowledge.  I could be wrong or reading too much into it, but there it is.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Pauravi wrote...
I didn't say that it was, I was simply drawing a parallel.  What IS correct about what I said is that neurons form a complex network that forms the basis of our thought patterns.

Yes, but how does the mechanical layout of the brain mean Geth function the same?

However, what I asked was why you believed that there was a fundamental divide.  You still haven't answered, all you did was say "theres no evidence for your theory, either!".  But I'm not the one that made the assertion of there being a divide, so I don't need evidence.  You don't get to assume that your position is correct by default.  The fact is that you're still basing that belief on nothing in particular.

Because mankind or at least some behave different from the machines that we code or a typical animal. How is that basing my belief on "nothing in particular?" In ME it is clear enough that the Geth behave quite differently.

Whether my stance is incorrect or not has nothing to do with the basis for your own beliefs.  You're just dodging the question.

Why do you care about the basis of my belief on the matter? I believe what makes sense to myself based on my life's experiences.

That isn't what you said at first, and it isn't what I asked you.  In fact, it is a meaningless statement.  Nobody is arguing that we should "behave like computers".  What would that even mean, anyway?

What did I say and what did you ask? You simply dismissed everything based on your idea that the Geth network functions just like a human brain.

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
On the subject of geth not being individuals, the last bit of dialog with legion gives me a nagging sensation.  He says that the dyson sphere being built would mean that NO GETH WOULD BE ALONE, kinda sorta implying that there is some individuality there that the geth aren't ready to acknowledge.  I could be wrong or reading too much into it, but there it is.

I interpreted it more along the lines that the dyson sphere would create the ability for the indiviual platforms to somehow have instant access to the the collective intelligence of the entire Geth.  Which would also help alleviate a weakness that their cognitive functions are reduced whenever they are not together in large numbers. 

Yeah, but the wording seems to indicate individuality.  He didn't say that all geth would have access to the other geth, he said no geth would be alone.

[GuardianAngel470]

Johnny, didn't recognize you, my bad. You changed your pic.

[GuardianAngel470]

Also, their is some dialog with legion where he is describing what it is like to be isolated. It was on the heretic station, i think. He said it was...quieter, with pause. Contemplating the loneliness of it maybe? Again, I may be over reading it.

[aeetos21]

It comes back to each of our own interpretations of the facts and how they fit in with our perspectives of what warrants individuality. Some people are on here ****ing that they're robots, they don't have souls, there's no way they can ever be considered an individual or a person or whatever label you want to throw on that particular lunchbox. Other people are choosing to ignore the physical and see more the metaphysical and how each geth platform has only minimal artificial intelligence (barely more than a chimpanzee - for example - and we don't treat monkeys like people so why do geth get a second look).

This whole argument has less to do with what warrants individuality and whether the geth fall into that category of a higher intelliegence and more to do with our own preconceptions of what makes something a higher being. No amount of forum hollering is going to change those preconceptions anytime soon.

Modifié par aeetos21, 09 mars 2010 - 05:26 .

[jasonontko]

aeetos21 wrote...

It comes back to each of our own interpretations of the facts and how they fit in with our perspectives of what warrants individuality. Some people are on here ****ing that they're robots, they don't have souls, there's no way they can ever be considered an individual or a person or whatever label you want to throw on that particular lunchbox. Other people are choosing to ignore the physical and see more the metaphysical and how each geth platform has only minimal artificial intelligence (barely more than a chimpanzee - for example - and we don't treat monkeys like people so why do geth get a second look).

This whole argument has less to do with what warrants individuality and whether the geth fall into that category of a higher intelliegence and more to do with our own preconceptions of what makes something a higher being. No amount of forum hollering is going to change those preconceptions anytime soon.

Nice straw man, who ever said they were not an individual?  Without the scarecrow, the whole argument falls to peices.   

Modifié par jasonontko, 09 mars 2010 - 05:31 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Uh huh. thats what you said five minutes ago *puts gun on your leg and fires* WHAT ABOUT NOW, HUH?!!!! STILL BUILDING CONSENSUS NOW?!!!! *Puts gun on flashlight head* YOU GOT SOMETHIN' TO SAY NOW?!!! *eye twitch*

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, their is some dialog with legion where he is describing what it is like to be isolated. It was on the heretic station, i think. He said it was...quieter, with pause. Contemplating the loneliness of it maybe? Again, I may be over reading it.

Yeah I remember that, though fleetingly.  I am not quite an ME2 guru just yet.

Don't worry. With heart and determination, you can do anything.

[Pauravi]

ReconTeam wrote...

Pauravi wrote...
I didn't say that it was, I was simply drawing a parallel.  What IS correct about what I said is that neurons form a complex network that forms the basis of our thought patterns.

Yes, but how does the mechanical layout of the brain mean Geth function the same?

I posited the idea that neurons share information, just like a computer network does.  I did not say that I believed that a brain works exactly the same as a computer network, I'm simply putting forth the notion that, perhaps, information sharing is what creates the capacity for intelligence, awareness, or emotion, regardless of the type of network.  However, I wasn't making a theory to contradict or disprove yours -- that wasn't my purpose.

However, what I asked was why you believed that there was a fundamental divide.  You still haven't answered. ...  The fact is that you're still basing that belief on nothing in particular.

Because mankind or at least some behave different from the machines that we code or a typical animal. How is that basing my belief on "nothing in particular?" In ME it is clear enough that the Geth behave quite differently

Animals are irrelevant to the discussion, and the machines we code are fundamentally unlike the Geth.  Neither of those support your argument, and they are irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

As for Geth behavior... Legion is remarkably person-like, if you ask me.  Disregarding superficial things like a synthesized voice, he exhibits a desire for self-preservation, curiosity, reasoning, indecision, desires, and even a sense of compassion and empathy for EDI, and this is despite the fact that Legion is barely a microcosm of the complexity of the actual Geth collective.

But all of that is completely beside the point.  You're asserting that there is a fundamental difference between an electronic system and an organic one that absolutely prevents computers or digital networks from becoming sentient by any means, no matter how complex the network the operate on, or how much information they share.  I asked you what that difference was.  You still haven't answered.  All you said was, basically, "My PC doesn't act like a person".  True, but not an answer.

Whether my stance is incorrect or not has nothing to do with the basis for your own beliefs.  You're just dodging the question.

Why do you care about the basis of my belief on the matter?

Because you made a statement and asserted its correctness.  Making a positive factual statement implies having knowledge to support it.  I was simply wondering if you were actually making a good argument, or if you were just telling everyone "Hey, this is what I think and you should believe me".

That isn't what you said at first, and it isn't what I asked you.  In fact, it is a meaningless statement.  Nobody is arguing that we should "behave like computers".  What would that even mean, anyway?

What did I say and what did you ask? You simply dismissed everything based on your idea that the Geth network functions just like a human brain.

You said that computers are fundamentally different from organic networks in a way that prevents computers from ever being "people".  I simply asked what evidence you had to support the claim.

I didn't dismiss anything based on the Geth-brain idea, I simply pointed out that brains and computer networks share similarities, which is true.

[aeetos21]

jasonontko wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

It comes back to each of our own interpretations of the facts and how they fit in with our perspectives of what warrants individuality. Some people are on here ****ing that they're robots, they don't have souls, there's no way they can ever be considered an individual or a person or whatever label you want to throw on that particular lunchbox. Other people are choosing to ignore the physical and see more the metaphysical and how each geth platform has only minimal artificial intelligence (barely more than a chimpanzee - for example - and we don't treat monkeys like people so why do geth get a second look).

This whole argument has less to do with what warrants individuality and whether the geth fall into that category of a higher intelliegence and more to do with our own preconceptions of what makes something a higher being. No amount of forum hollering is going to change those preconceptions anytime soon.

Nice straw man, who ever said they were not an individual?  Without the scarecrow, the whole argument falls to peices.   

A big argument of the OP was based on the idea of geth not having a soul and thus not being individuals - no higher moral compass or emotions to govern them by. Only cold hard logic. If a person interprets individuality as needing a soul or higher moral compass then you will never convince that person into believing the geth have a soul - to them they are just robots - even if the geth (Legion for example) clearly show signs of individuality.

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
On the subject of geth not being individuals, the last bit of dialog with legion gives me a nagging sensation.  He says that the dyson sphere being built would mean that NO GETH WOULD BE ALONE, kinda sorta implying that there is some individuality there that the geth aren't ready to acknowledge.  I could be wrong or reading too much into it, but there it is.

I interpreted it more along the lines that the dyson sphere would create the ability for the indiviual platforms to somehow have instant access to the the collective intelligence of the entire Geth.  Which would also help alleviate a weakness that their cognitive functions are reduced whenever they are not together in large numbers. 

Yeah, but the wording seems to indicate individuality.  He didn't say that all geth would have access to the other geth, he said no geth would be alone.

Right, and I see a Geth as having this access to the collective mind as not being alone and seperated from the hive.  I can't seem to draw individuality from "NO GETH WOULD  BE  ALONE" though.  Maybe I am missing something here.

Using the term alone at all implies individuality. Individuals can be alone, collections of 100 geth programs can't, but he distinctly said alone.

[Tooneyman]

Human machinal relations. Its like a man who loves his car. You just feel for the damn thing. Though if people start calling legion a she we will have a problem!

[GuardianAngel470]

Tooneyman wrote...

Human machinal relations. Its like a man who loves his car. You just feel for the damn thing. Though if people start calling legion a she we will have a problem!

Yes, we will. Revolution, in fact.  Us men aren't gonna stand for this anymore.  Women don't have rights, they're just things, we can discard them whenever we want!

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

Human machinal relations. Its like a man who loves his car. You just feel for the damn thing. Though if people start calling legion a she we will have a problem!

Yes, we will. Revolution, in fact.  Us men aren't gonna stand for this anymore.  Women don't have rights, they're just things, we can discard them whenever we want!

As long as the women know that your kidding or we will have a revolution in this thread.

Kidding?! what are you talking about?

[MajorStranger]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

You made my toaster cried you heartless bastard!