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[ObserverStatus]

I don't see why you're so surprised. I see people treating machines better than human beings all the time.
http://www.sfgate.co...?entry_id=58670

Modifié par bobobo878, 09 mars 2010 - 06:07 .

[Sina84]

Humans don't have souls either. We are advanced organic machines. The Geth are advanced synthetic machines.



One of the themes to ME2 was the whole question of what it means to be alive, and how we define life. Is Legion, who is capable of advanced rational thought and emotion, less alive than a dustmite? Everything and everyone in the Universe is made of the same basic matter, so what's so different about evolving from single cell organisms and evolving from computer chips?

[Hellebore5000]

Picard has a problem with this thread!

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

@GuardianAngel470
Ah, ok I see your angle. That Dyson Sphere I suppose is what stuck my mind. Thinking it would be capable of storing the collective intelligence of the entire Geth. Similar to an organic species' homeworld. But your interpreting that the individual Geth platforms themselves will have much higher cognitive functions even when seperated from the hive and alone.

Not really.  I'm making the assumption that some of Legions programs have been isolated at some time.  I don't know how being an individual is possible as a collection f 100 programs but his word choice tells me that there is some individuality there.  I'm ignoring the Dyson Sphere concept and focusing only on Legions word choice.  You can tell alot about what a person really means by the words they choose to convey their meaning.  Even if what he says means that, literally, no geth will be alone, I take it a bit further and see that you can't not be alone if it isn't possible to be alone in the first place.

From my perspective, it shouldn't be possible for geth to ever be alone because a geth mobile platform is useless without more than one geth runtime inside. That means that there is always more than one geth runtime present in every mobile platform.  If that is true, then how is it possible to be alone? there is always more than one runtime present, but legion specifically says ALONE.  So I'm thinking that within the platform, the memories a collection of runtimes gather make that mobile platform an individual, a single being, and that once rejoined with the collective that collection of runtimes maintains some form of individuality. 

But all that is just conjecture, what I'm trying to say is that it isn't possible to not be alone if it is impossible to be alone in the first place. Consider that legion says We when he refers to himself.  That implies that there are more than one person involved.  We is a word used to describe a group, so legion is essentially many people in one body.  So how can he be alone?

One thing to remember is that "alone" is a word invented by us, humans, to describe us, as individuals, when no one else is present.  For the geth, someone else is always present, so they would have no need to describe a state that is impossible for them.

[superimposed]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

The soul is a fabricated ideal established by stone-age myths designed to frighten people in to submission. To rely on that as a measure of 'existance' or 'life' is to rely on ignorance to form your views for you.

[GuardianAngel470]

superimposed wrote...

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

The soul is a fabricated ideal established by stone-age myths designed to frighten people in to submission. To rely on that as a measure of 'existance' or 'life' is to rely on ignorance to form your views for you.

I'm not saying that badjezus is right, but there is no proof that the soul does or doesn't exist. Yes there is historical precedent that says that the existence of a soul is a good tool for manipulating populations but it is also true that we are scientifically ignorant of what makes us who we are.  We can't track down a personality, and because of this ignorance the existence of a soul is still a distinct possibility.  Dismissing it out of hand belies our ignorance either way.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Pauravi wrote...
Animals are irrelevant to the discussion, and the machines we code are fundamentally unlike the Geth.  Neither of those support your argument, and they are irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

You asked for the basis of my beliefs here and I gave them. A computer today can piece together information, Geth simply take it to a higher level being able to determine what information to gather and form their own conclusions.

As for Geth behavior... Legion is remarkably person-like, if you ask me.  Disregarding superficial things like a synthesized voice, he exhibits a desire for self-preservation, curiosity, reasoning, indecision, desires, and even a sense of compassion and empathy for EDI, and this is despite the fact that Legion is barely a microcosm of the complexity of the actual Geth collective.

Yet all of these are related to the task Legion was built and specified to do. Self-preservation? Needed to effectively perform his mission. Curiosity, desires, reasoning? All part of his goal to collect information on organic races. Indecision? A result of difficultly comprehending morality perhaps?

But all of that is completely beside the point.  You're asserting that there is a fundamental difference between an electronic system and an organic one that absolutely prevents computers or digital networks from becoming sentient by any means, no matter how complex the network the operate on, or how much information they share.  I asked you what that difference was.  You still haven't answered.  All you said was, basically, "My PC doesn't act like a person".  True, but not an answer.

Remembering ME1 and the motives of the heretics for joining Saren, perhaps the Geth as whole may be considered sentient if you define that on the basis of being able to learn and define objectives and goals indepentently. Yet does this mean they are the same as people? Not in my opinion. The way they think, operate, and their construction makes them far removed.

Because you made a statement and asserted its correctness.  Making a positive factual statement implies having knowledge to support it.  I was simply wondering if you were actually making a good argument, or if you were just telling everyone "Hey, this is what I think and you should believe me".

Everybody thinks their own opinion is correct.

You said that computers are fundamentally different from organic networks in a way that prevents computers from ever being "people".  I simply asked what evidence you had to support the claim.

Every individual is a sentient being, not so with the Geth. Each is simply many different individual programs in a body. Only in groups do they become sentient. And even so as machines they are going to think with different processes, and will come to different answers.

[Bogsnot1]

badjezus007 wrote...

Geth are not people. They are machines. They don't have souls. I see people  on the forums saying how if you chose to destroy the geth on legion's loyalty mission you are committing genocide. No? Its a freaking machine, its not alive. It never was alive. It never will be alive. It is a robot that has the ability to adapt to its surroundings. Thats it. Nothing more.

A few things in response....
1) Never heard of the Turing test?
2) Someone with a similar train of thought as yours, only he had a little wimpy moustache under his nose, said something along those lines about the Jews in the 30's and 40's. Your average christian redneck will say the same about blacks, hispanics, jews, asians, and anyone else who does not "look right".
3) A sentient species is able to correlate data, think critically, and come to logical conclusions. The Geth have done this, you have not.
4) The word "soul" invokes religious connotations. The game itself contains enough fiction, without you adding your delusional "fan-fiction" to it.

[Inquisitor Recon]

superimposed wrote...
The soul is a fabricated ideal established by stone-age myths designed to frighten people in to submission. To rely on that as a measure of 'existance' or 'life' is to rely on ignorance to form your views for you.

Oh really now? And you know this how? Trying to define mankind through mechanical processes alone simply doesn't work. Perhaps you simply want an excuse to behave like a common animal, perhaps you don't want to recognize anything beyond your own body, but there is clearly more to what makes us human than you would like to admit.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
4) The word "soul" invokes religious connotations. The game itself contains enough fiction, without you adding your delusional "fan-fiction" to it.

Ah. Didn't take long for a typical ****** atheist to show up thinking he is smart because he is doing what his parent's didn't want. Pathetic.

[Aesaar]

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh really now? And you know this how? Trying to define mankind through mechanical processes alone simply doesn't work. Perhaps you simply want an excuse to behave like a common animal, perhaps you don't want to recognize anything beyond your own body, but there is clearly more to what makes us human than you would like to admit.

And you know this how?

We don't have to prove that something doesn't exist.  You claim the soul is real.  The burden of proof is on you.

To provide another example of your logic:
There is a teapot in orbit of Mars.  You can't prove otherwise.  Therefore it exists.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Aesaar wrote...
And you know this how?

We don't have to prove that something doesn't exist.  You claim the soul is real.  The burden of proof is on you.

To provide another example of your logic:
There is a teapot in orbit of Mars.  You can't prove otherwise.  Therefore it exists.

Let me guess, your another atheist. Same boring arguments as usual. Shall I direct you to a website or copy and paste something for you?

I don't know, maybe I should blame your parents instead of you...

Modifié par ReconTeam, 09 mars 2010 - 06:49 .

[GuardianAngel470]

ReconTeam wrote...

Aesaar wrote...
And you know this how?

We don't have to prove that something doesn't exist.  You claim the soul is real.  The burden of proof is on you.

To provide another example of your logic:
There is a teapot in orbit of Mars.  You can't prove otherwise.  Therefore it exists.

Let me guess, your another atheist. Same boring arguments as usual. Shall I direct you to a website or copy and paste something for you?

I don't know, maybe I should blame your parents instead of you...

I'm an atheist, and because of that I agree with Recon.  You can't say someone else needs proof but you don't.  It is my firm belief that anything, literally anything, is possible until PROVEN otherwise.  I can't prove that god doesn't exist, I would just be lying to myself if I said I believed he did.  I can't prove that the Laws of Physics can't spontaneously change due to some unknown force, that doesn't mean they can, it just means that no one has proven it one way or the other.  A lot of the reasons atheists are atheists is because (at least this is what they tell you) you can't prove god exists.  Unfortunately for them, you can't prove he doesn't.

That's not to say I don't think you're a pompous ass, recon, just that if you are going to make an argument about proof then you better be able to back it up.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 09 mars 2010 - 07:03 .

[Aesaar]

ReconTeam wrote...

Let me guess, your another atheist. Same boring arguments as usual. Shall I direct you to a website or copy and paste something for you?

I don't know, maybe I should blame your parents instead of you...

Blame my parents if you want.  I made the choice to be an atheist for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with my parents.  Nor does my being an atheist have anything to do with the legitimacy of my arguments.

I could direct you to a website too, so you'll forgive me if I don't consider "Shall I direct you to a website?" to be any kind of argument.

Modifié par Aesaar, 09 mars 2010 - 07:01 .

[thegreateski]

I'm Commander Shepard and I'm a complete douche.



*hacks the Geth and forces them to do "the robot" forever*

[GuardianAngel470]

thegreateski wrote...

I'm Commander Shepard and I'm a complete douche.

*hacks the Geth and forces them to do "the robot" forever*

Lets do this...*dances pathetically beside the awesomeness that is legion*

[Inquisitor Recon]

Aesaar wrote...
Blame my parents if you want.  I made the choice to be an atheist for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with my parents.  Nor does my being an atheist have anything to do with the legitimacy of my arguments.

I could direct you to a website too, so you'll forgive me if I don't consider "Shall I direct you to a website?" to any kind of argument.

Heard it all before. If I said what I wanted to say I would probably get banned... and since a website exchange will lead us nowhere, lets get to the part where we agree that we would stab each other to death.

[thegreateski]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I'm Commander Shepard and I'm a complete douche.

*hacks the Geth and forces them to do "the robot" forever*

Lets do this...*dances pathetically beside the awesomeness that is legion*

YOUR DANCE-FU IS WEAK!

*Changes it from "the robot" to "Thriller"*

[GuardianAngel470]

To any of you religious people saying the geth aren't people because they don't have souls, I say that if god is all knowing, all powerful, and completely in control, then the geth being created is by design, perhaps as a means to expand organics' perceptions of what is or isn't a person. God may be trying to expose our weaknesses, preconceptions, and prejudices in order to make us more accepting and loving people. Is that beyond the realm of possibility?

[GuardianAngel470]

thegreateski wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I'm Commander Shepard and I'm a complete douche.

*hacks the Geth and forces them to do "the robot" forever*

Lets do this...*dances pathetically beside the awesomeness that is legion*

YOUR DANCE-FU IS WEAK!

*Changes it from "the robot" to "Thriller"*

Dear god, Zombie Legion.  RUN AWAY!!!!

[GuardianAngel470]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I'm Commander Shepard and I'm a complete douche.

*hacks the Geth and forces them to do "the robot" forever*

Lets do this...*dances pathetically beside the awesomeness that is legion*

YOUR DANCE-FU IS WEAK!

*Changes it from "the robot" to "Thriller"*

Dear god, Zombie Legion.  RUN AWAY!!!!

He might grow a few more heads to represent his multiple personalities.  4 headed legion.

[thegreateski]

Souls? Oh come on people.



When you bring the immaterial into a material debate then everything will go to **** because neither side will be able to disprove the other.

[GuardianAngel470]

thegreateski wrote...

Souls? Oh come on people.

When you bring the immaterial into a material debate then everything will go to **** because neither side will be able to disprove the other.

Exactly what I said in an earlier post.  Just not in so little words.