97 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

I have no idea why they chose to go with this particular model, they just did.It's designed to start off from netural and gradually go up or down and reveal content. Reseting the meter for the sake of an expansion is the simpliest way of dealing with it.  It doesn't make much sense I agree but they're not going to redesign the whole system.

Well, if the supposed reason is going to be "because it's the easiest/most lazy way out" then it's of course hard to argue with, i just hope they realize what impact this sort of decision has on overall impression of the expansion, as well as on people's willingness to keep getting involved with these particular "gameplay elements". To use the quote from earlier:

Oghren: "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
Player: "If few months down the road you're not going to even remember my name again why should i care to do anything new for you at all? Hit the road, Oghren."

Modifié par tmp7704, 14 mars 2010 - 08:00 .

[blademaster7]

At least now we know the reason why they didn't bring Leliana and Zevran back even though their endings(most of them anyway) suggest otherwise. It wouldn't have worked very well.

I can see it right now...

Zevran will ambush you in a random encounter and try to kill you again. It's sad but he has to die this time.

As for Leliana, you return back to Denerim after your long adventure in Awakening:

Warden: Honey, I'm home.
Leliana: Hello.
Warden: I've been gone for so long and all you have to say is hello? And why are you packing?
Leliana: I had another vision. The maker told me I don't love you anymore. I'm leaving for Orlais.
Warden: *facepalm* I should have stayed dead.

Modifié par blademaster7, 14 mars 2010 - 08:02 .

[Mass Fraud]

tmp7704 wrote...
Oghren: "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
Player: "If few months down the road you're not going to even remember my name again why should i care to do anything new for you at all? Hit the road, Oghren."

Thus the reason why after you do their personal quest, you forget about them and leave them alone for the rest of the game.
No reason to waste time chatting with them if it's not going to be woth it in the future.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...
Well, if the supposed reason is going to be "because it's the easiest/most lazy way out" then it's of course hard to argue with, i just hope they realize what impact this sort of decision has on overall impression of the expansion, as well as on people's willingness to keep getting involved with these particular "gameplay elements". To use the quote from earlier:

Oghren: "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
Player: "If few months down the road you're not going to even remember my name again why should i care to do anything new for you at all? Hit the road, Oghren."

To quote myself

"And I think he'll start on neutral for gameplay purpouses. But will
still act like old buddies if you completed his personal quest, as David
mentioned that quest flags do carry over."

Reseting the meter is for the sake of gameplay but as long as he's written to acknowledge you as old buddies if you completed his quest properly then he approval meter is just a bar with some number on it and I don't mind. I expect this to be the case..

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 08:06 .

[dirtyvermin]

I'm not really bothered one way or the other never played him in my group apart from when i had to and don't intend using him in the expiation unless I have to. Would have been my last choice of the original group to carry over if I had my way .

[shedevil3001]

i've read that oghren is funny in awakening so i guess all is not lost as for lack of other companions returning well i'm hugely dissapointed as alistair was my fave but if he comes back in other expansions and doesnt remember being married to my warden then i'm going on a serious temper tantrum spree "all beware"

[C bomby white]

YOu think its possible that when you meet up with ohgren you do something to P*** him off? after all the meter is starting at 0.

[shedevil3001]

maybe you drank his ale so he got mad at you and disowned you lol :}

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

To quote myself

"And I think he'll start on neutral for gameplay purpouses. But will
still act like old buddies if you completed his personal quest, as David
mentioned that quest flags do carry over."

Reseting the meter is for the sake of gameplay but as long as he's written to acknowledge you as old buddies if you completed his quest properly then I the approval meter is just a number and I don't mind. And I think he will be.

Except in this game the very way the NPCs treat someone 'like old buddy' is by giving them access to approval-based dialogues i.e. something they'd only tell a trusted friend. In other words what he might tell you ("ohai old bosom buddy") and how he actually treats you ("no you can't inquire about my bedroom performance with my new wife until you get at least 25 points of approval, stranger") are pretty clearly two different things, and such dichotomy isn't doing anything to improve the image of the character as actual "living" person the players are supposed to care about. The opposite if anything -- if the gameplay is supposed to take priority over continuity and the character development then you risk that's all the characters will be viewed as: a very simple system to be gamed for potential small bonus and nothing else.

[Wowlock]

Well I can understand the gameplay purposes but still and imported character should be recognized by Oghren. We defeated a blight for god sake. He didnt forgot that Sodding Branka for 2 years how come he can forget The Warden who save him from himself and give him a reason to fight again after 6 months ?



Again I can understand the gameplay issues but for Rpg that means these '' friendships'' can be overlook that easily. I am a bit dissappointed.

[Adfero]

David Gaider wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
And I think he'll start on neutral for gameplay purpouses.

That is indeed it. The approval system is a gameplay system, and starting off a follower at max approval would circumvent the system's purpose.

Or, if one prefers, you can imagine the worst and decide that we'll clearly be having dialogues like this:

"But you were my friend!"
"Who, you? Nah!"
"But I got you and Felsi back together!"
"Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
"I defended you on the forums!"
"BURP."

Dog?

[tmp7704]

C bomby white wrote...

YOu think its possible that when you meet up with ohgren you do something to P*** him off? after all the meter is starting at 0.

Perhaps the beginning of expansion has the almost-dead Archdemon kill you in the last lunge, and you're then resurrected two years later by infamous anti-dwarf organization which makes you work for them. Which causes Oghren declare he can't believe you'd change so much and then storm off, after you run into him in the middle of village which you've just defended from darkspawn attempt to spirit the village folks away...

Modifié par tmp7704, 14 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[Booglarize]

tmp7704 wrote...

C bomby white wrote...

YOu think its possible that when you meet up with ohgren you do something to P*** him off? after all the meter is starting at 0.

Perhaps the beginning of expansion has the almost-dead Archdemon kill you in the last lunge, and you're then resurrected two years later by infamous anti-dwarf organization which makes you work for them. Which causes Oghren declare he can't believe you'd change so much and then storm off, after you run into him in the middle of village which you've just defended from darkspawn attempt to spirit the village folks away...

I almost feel like your post reminds me of something, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Edit: Though I have to say, the thought of Oghren as a former lover made me throw up in my mouth a little a lot

Modifié par Booglarize, 14 mars 2010 - 08:36 .

[Count Viceroy]

Wowlock wrote...

Well I can understand the gameplay purposes but still and imported character should be recognized by Oghren. We defeated a blight for god sake. He didnt forgot that Sodding Branka for 2 years how come he can forget The Warden who save him from himself and give him a reason to fight again after 6 months ?

Again I can understand the gameplay issues but for Rpg that means these '' friendships'' can be overlook that easily. I am a bit dissappointed.

It *will* be recognised. It's just the meter which will reset to allow for new approval gain, that is all.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Mass Fraud]

If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?

Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...


Except in this game the very way the NPCs treat someone 'like old buddy' is by giving them access to approval-based dialogues i.e. something they'd only tell a trusted friend. In other words what he might tell you ("ohai old bosom buddy") and how he actually treats you ("no you can't inquire about my bedroom performance with my new wife until you get at least 25 points of approval, stranger") .

Yes well the issue is that they need to reset it and thus this is how it has to be. The system is far from perfect. 0 approval with an imported ogren you helped out and was at 100 approval with, will probably be different from the 0 approval you start out with if you ruined that ogrens chances with felsi for example. So there's still room for different behaviour regardless of what the meter would suggest, it'll be at neutral simply because there's no other way of doing it.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 08:42 .

[David Gaider]

Mass Fraud wrote...
If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?
Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

If your only concern is how things could possibly affect future stories, and not how they affect this one, then why do anything? Nothing is guaranteed to carry over in any fashion -- things exist as they are to make the game you're actually playing a better one, not to affect some hypothetical future game.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 mars 2010 - 08:52 .

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Yes well the issue is that they need to reset it and thus this is how it has to be.

That's the thing though, does it really need to be reset? (not speaking of technical inability to carry over the rating but rather the mindset associated with this, the "it's gameplay, it needs reset!" thing) I mean, let's say the 'approval-based content' for Oghren in expansion goes like:

* if you have 25 approval, you can ask Oghren about his bed adventures with new wife.

* if you had the 1st conversation and have 50 approval he will confess the little Oghren isn't sometimes up to task.

* if you had the 2nd conversation and have 75 approval he will ask you to find him rumoured blue pill of prowess from the magic shop in Denerim. Getting him the pill gets his personal quest done and you're cordially invited to join the dwarf couple. Or something.

So a player who didn't get Oghren's approval up in the base game might need to fill him with a few drinks to unlock that content and it might take them couple hours. On the other hand someone with imported 100% approval might be able to get through these conversations faster and without need for the extra drinks. Why is the latter possibility an actual problem that has to be addressed? What's so tragic and absolutely unacceptable about the player being able to benefit from decisions made in the earlier game (i.e. spending some time to gain Oghren's approval back then)

[shedevil3001]

uh oh thats bad david i was hoping if our warden married alistair or anora it wouldnt just be hand waved i really hope it doesnt get forgotten in later releases as thats my main character playthrough as for the approval rating thing well i understand it going back to 0 but i never read anywhere that oghren doesnt know who the warden is

[David Gaider]

shedevil3001 wrote...
uh oh thats bad david i was hoping if our warden married alistair or anora it wouldnt just be hand waved i really hope it doesnt get forgotten in later releases as thats my main character playthrough as for the approval rating thing well i understand it going back to 0 but i never read anywhere that oghren doesnt know who the warden is

Where did I say Oghren doesn't know who the Warden is? I also said nothing about the Warden's marriage, which is in fact recognized. This is about Oghren's approval rating -- the numerical value -- period.

[Booglarize]

David Gaider wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...
If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?
Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

If your only concern is how things could possibly affect future stories, and not how they affect this one, then why do anything? Nothing is guaranteed to carry over in any fashion -- things exist as they are to make the game you're actually playing a better one, not to affect some hypothetical future game.

I'm just wondering - was there any thought given to making the approval system invisible altogether (like something KOTOR II-esque, maybe)? If people couldn't actually see the number, then perhaps they wouldn't be too bothered about whether it carried over from game to game, and "starting over" would feel more natural.

Also, I'm not sure if others felt this way, but it was a tad awkward for me to see an actual number that described some character's disposition towards me. So making the approval "invisible" in that sense would've made the in-game interaction feel a bit more natural too. 

[Mass Fraud]

David Gaider wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...
If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?
Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

If your only concern is how things could possibly affect future stories, and not how they affect this one, then why do anything? Nothing is guaranteed to carry over in any fashion -- things exist as they are to make the game you're actually playing a better one, not to affect some hypothetical future game.

Than why not just give us their personal quest from the get go instead of us partaking in meaningless conversations that will get us nothing.
I guess that makes  conversations gameplay in Awakening better than in Origins, since we won't have any pointless banter with our companions just to get them to like the pc more then.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Yes well the issue is that they need to reset it and thus this is how it has to be.

That's the thing though, does it really need to be reset? (not speaking of technical inability to carry over the rating but rather the mindset associated with this, the "it's gameplay, it needs reset!" thing) I mean, let's say the 'approval-based content' for Oghren in expansion goes like:

* if you have 25 approval, you can ask Oghren about his bed adventures with new wife.

* if you had the 1st conversation and have 50 approval he will confess the little Oghren isn't sometimes up to task.

* if you had the 2nd conversation and have 75 approval he will ask you to find him rumoured blue pill of prowess from the magic shop in Denerim. Getting him the pill gets his personal quest done and you're cordially invited to join the dwarf couple. Or something.

So a player who didn't get Oghren's approval up in the base game might need to fill him with a few drinks to unlock that content and it might take them couple hours. On the other hand someone with imported 100% approval might be able to get through these conversations faster and without need for the extra drinks. Why is the latter possibility an actual problem that has to be addressed? What's so tragic and absolutely unacceptable about the player being able to benefit from decisions made in the earlier game (i.e. spending some time to gain Oghren's approval back then)

Well you'd loose any sense of progression if you could start off having everything available from the start. We'll still be rewarded so to speak by having good approval when importing with custom dialog. Don't get me wrong I see where you're coming from and I agree with you. I don't like it reseting either but I can understand why it has been done.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 09:11 .

[Count Viceroy]

Mass Fraud wrote...

Than why not just give us their personal quest from the get go instead of us partaking in meaningless conversations that will get us nothing.
I guess that makes  conversations gameplay in Awakening better than in Origins, since we won't have any pointless banter with our companions just to get them to like the pc more then.

Wow.  Those conversations add to the story, they build the characters and their relationship with the player. I can't belive this has to be explained, this is a roleplaying game. Who generally tend to empasis on story...

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[shedevil3001]

David Gaider wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...
uh oh thats bad david i was hoping if our warden married alistair or anora it wouldnt just be hand waved i really hope it doesnt get forgotten in later releases as thats my main character playthrough as for the approval rating thing well i understand it going back to 0 but i never read anywhere that oghren doesnt know who the warden is

Where did I say Oghren doesn't know who the Warden is? I also said nothing about the Warden's marriage, which is in fact recognized. This is about Oghren's approval rating -- the numerical value -- period.

i know you didnt say about the marriage thing it was that you said about decions in general maybe not carrying over as a response to someone with the oghren statement and the oghren thing i said it hasnt been mentioned that he doesnt recognize the warden i might not of worded it right my mistake sorry