97 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Booglarize wrote...
Also, I'm not sure if others felt this way, but it was a tad awkward for me to see an actual number that described some character's disposition towards me. So making the approval "invisible" in that sense would've made the in-game interaction feel a bit more natural too. 

I've thought of this too, but I think the problem is that sometimes I would have a conversation with someone or do something ( often with Morrigan) expecting to get a certain disapproval or approval only to be surprised that they reacted differently. Especially with Morrigan, I think you can learn a bit more about her inner character by seeing how her approval moves in ways that might be incongruous with how she was acting- I'm thinking specifically when you romance her and sometimes you pick the more chivalrous response only for her to verbally demean you when once the conversation is over, you see the elusive "Morrigan Approves" making it seem like maybe she actually likes a given response despite her reaction.

As for starting at zero or neutral approval with returning characters, it makes sense within the confines of a game. So long as the choices from the past are accounted for, it makes sense that given the passage of time and gameplay wise it makes sense too, especially if certain quests are triggered by approval. Just think about the approval meter starting at neutral  with Oghren either already your friend  and the approval goes up or down strictly on what happens in the confines of Awakening, not from your actions in DAO which are accounted for in how Oghren reacts to you through dialogue.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 mars 2010 - 09:21 .

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Well you'd loose any sense of progression if you could start off having everything available from the start.

I'd argue it's the opposite, actually -- it's seeing your whole progress so far (minus possible meaningless dialogue fluff that pretends to acknowledge what you did) being entirely negated in a blink, that's likely to cause the loss of sense of progression, and question whether it's worth to carry on with what appears to be endless treadmill. While getting a tangible benefit from the progress made so far would likely reinforce the idea it's worth to "invest" in these gameplay systems because it can provide also a long-term payoff. Not to mention the whole continuity concept.

I can agree that the mileage may vary etc, but at the same time i think it's worth noting the mileage may indeed vary, and so not everyone is going to be happy with this reset thing, nor is everyong going to find game handled this way a better experience.

[Mass Fraud]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...

Than why not just give us their personal quest from the get go instead of us partaking in meaningless conversations that will get us nothing.
I guess that makes  conversations gameplay in Awakening better than in Origins, since we won't have any pointless banter with our companions just to get them to like the pc more then.

Wow.  Those conversations add to the story, they build the characters and their relationship with the player. I can't belive this has to be explained, this is a roleplaying game. Who generally tend to empasis on story...

Then if thats the case, why not still give it to us from the start and still have the conversations (and gaining approval) optional.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...



I can agree that the mileage may vary etc, but at the same time i think it's worth noting the mileage may indeed vary, and so not everyone is going to be happy with this reset thing, nor is everyong going to find game handled this way a better experience.

No doubt, you can't please everybody. While we can argue pros and cons back and fourth, this is how they have chosen to do things. We'll just have to deal with it or forget about the expansion.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 14 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[Jenocide]

David Gaider wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...
If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?
Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

If your only concern is how things could possibly affect future stories, and not how they affect this one, then why do anything? Nothing is guaranteed to carry over in any fashion -- things exist as they are to make the game you're actually playing a better one, not to affect some hypothetical future game.

I with you on this one Dave the system isn't about ranking up high approval to move them on too the next game. its really used to allow you to feel as if your the Warden himself / Herself making you think about how your action will be judged by your group. i remember playing the urn quest and pausing for a good 5 - 10 mins thinking about the out-come and how this could effect my party and the future of the game itself.

though the approval rating doesn't need to Fallow you form game to game Because this system is really only in place to make you think about your action witch fallow you form game to game.

personal i think this idea fix perfect with the timing of Awakening as Oghren would away form you and your party for over six month's making his approval of you lower no matter what. 

Modifié par Jenocide, 14 mars 2010 - 09:29 .

[tmp7704]

Jenocide wrote...

I with you on this one Dave the system isn't about ranking up high approval to move them on too the next game. its really used to allow you to feel as if your the Warden himself / Herself making you think about how your action will be judged by your group. i remember playing the urn quest and pausing for a good 5 - 10 mins thinking about the out-come and how this could effect my party and the future of the game itself.

So how does it feel to know your decisions you spent time agonizing over mean literally squat to these other characters because few months have passed?

"Oghren disapproves?" Who cares, Oghren himself apparently the least.

[Feraele]

David Gaider wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
And I think he'll start on neutral for gameplay purpouses.

That is indeed it. The approval system is a gameplay system, and starting off a follower at max approval would circumvent the system's purpose.

Or, if one prefers, you can imagine the worst and decide that we'll clearly be having dialogues like this:

"But you were my friend!"
"Who, you? Nah!"
"But I got you and Felsi back together!"
"Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
"I defended you on the forums!"
"BURP."

Okay I think I see what you mean.   If you have a character like..Alistair or someone at 100% approval..then you start Awakening..there wouldn't be any conversations triggered, that how it works?   And is that why the decision to make Oghren neutral was made?

If so ..okay, because really alot of the fun with the companions was the triggered conversations, but that was with the old dialogue trees.   

Got a question, will we still be tabbing to find hidden notes and things like that..or has that changed too?

[Booglarize]

Brockololly wrote...

I've thought of this too, but I think the problem is that sometimes I would have a conversation with someone or do something ( often with Morrigan) expecting to get a certain disapproval or approval only to be surprised that they reacted differently. Especially with Morrigan, I think you can learn a bit more about her inner character by seeing how her approval moves in ways that might be incongruous with how she was acting- I'm thinking specifically when you romance her and sometimes you pick the more chivalrous response only for her to verbally demean you when once the conversation is over, you see the elusive "Morrigan Approves" making it seem like maybe she actually likes a given response despite her reaction.

Just to clarify, I'm perfectly fine with the game letting you know generally whether a character approves or disapproves, without attaching a number to it - which was basically how KOTOR II did it. So I think something like "Morrigan approves" would be fine, but "Morrigan approves +4" strikes me as a bit silly. 

Modifié par Booglarize, 14 mars 2010 - 10:52 .

[Vim]

Booglarize wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I've thought of this too, but I think the problem is that sometimes I would have a conversation with someone or do something ( often with Morrigan) expecting to get a certain disapproval or approval only to be surprised that they reacted differently. Especially with Morrigan, I think you can learn a bit more about her inner character by seeing how her approval moves in ways that might be incongruous with how she was acting- I'm thinking specifically when you romance her and sometimes you pick the more chivalrous response only for her to verbally demean you when once the conversation is over, you see the elusive "Morrigan Approves" making it seem like maybe she actually likes a given response despite her reaction.

Just to clarify, I'm perfectly fine with the game letting you know generally whether a character approves or disapproves, without attaching a number to it - which was basically how KOTOR II did it. So I think something like "Morrigan approves" would be fine, but "Morrigan approves +4" strikes me as a bit silly. 

But then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a +1 and a +20, and I think there should be a way to tell the difference. Optimally you should be able to read the degree of her approval in her facial expressions and body language. But game graphics aren't quite there yet. Until then we'll need some artifical method to supplement the rendered video.

Modifié par Vim, 15 mars 2010 - 01:44 .

[Booglarize]

Vim wrote...

But then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a +1 and a +20, and I think there should be a way to tell the difference. Optimally you should be able to read the degree of her approval in her facial expressions and body language. But game graphics aren't quite there yet. Until then we'll need some artifical method to supplement the rendered video.

Well, you're right about body language and facial expressions, but you're forgetting something even more basic - that is, what an NPC actually says to you. You can usually gauge how strongly they approve or disapprove just by looking at how they've responded to something you've said or done. For example, whether they're simply being mildly critical of something you've done (which would be minor disapproval), or whether they actually feel deeply insulted (major disapproval). Numbers need not be involved - just some good dialogue-writing on the part of the game makers, and some rudimentary skill at assessing people's responses on the part of the player. 

[CybAnt1]

C bomby white wrote...

YOu think its possible that when you meet up with ohgren you do something to P*** him off? after all the meter is starting at 0.

Most people helped him hook up with Felsi. And if you didn't it looks like the game assumes you did. 

This is my in-game explanation; like many people, he's probably not happy that you helped crimp his tavern-crawling lifestyle by getting him shackled up with the old ball & chain. (He apparently never had a child with Branka, but has now had one with Felsi.) This is not enough to make him hate you and start at negative approval, but is enough to start his approval back at neutral. 

Well, that, and he wasn't actually as forgiving of you killing the ex-wife, either, now that he's thought about it. 

Like I said -- I'm terribly curious how much he flirts with Mhairi, Velanna, and Sigrun, now that he's married (again), and if I know Oghren, the answer is probably "lots"  in which case I'll know "he's the same old Oghren." 

Prediction two: being married has not meant he has lost his fondness for alcohol as gifts. 

[Vim]

Booglarize wrote...

Vim wrote...

But then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a +1 and a +20, and I think there should be a way to tell the difference. Optimally you should be able to read the degree of her approval in her facial expressions and body language. But game graphics aren't quite there yet. Until then we'll need some artifical method to supplement the rendered video.

Well, you're right about body language and facial expressions, but you're forgetting something even more basic - that is, what an NPC actually says to you. You can usually gauge how strongly they approve or disapprove just by looking at how they've responded to something you've said or done. For example, whether they're simply being mildly critical of something you've done (which would be minor disapproval), or whether they actually feel deeply insulted (major disapproval). Numbers need not be involved - just some good dialogue-writing on the part of the game makers, and some rudimentary skill at assessing people's responses on the part of the player. 

That doesn't work so well with companions who say something different from what they actually mean and are also highly adept at controlling their voices like Morrigan or Sten. Body language/facial expressions and close observation of the sort we don't have the opportunity to engage in within the game would be the the only ways to tell otherwise.

Modifié par Vim, 15 mars 2010 - 02:16 .

[Booglarize]

Vim wrote...

That doesn't work so well with companions who say something different from what they actually mean and are also highly adept at controlling their voices like Morrigan or Sten. Body language/facial expressions and close observation of the sort we don't have the opportunity to engage in within the game would be the the only ways to tell otherwise.

That's just part of any interaction process, as I see it. One's ability go gauge people's dispositions is limited in real life as well - you don't know what's going on inside peoples' heads, and can only extrapolate based on your assessment of what they do/say and how well you know them. I think it'd add to the realism of the game if it allowed for the player to actually err occasionally in his assessment of how much certain characters had approved/disapproved of certain things. 

[Vim]

Booglarize wrote...

Vim wrote...

That doesn't work so well with companions who say something different from what they actually mean and are also highly adept at controlling their voices like Morrigan or Sten. Body language/facial expressions and close observation of the sort we don't have the opportunity to engage in within the game would be the the only ways to tell otherwise.

That's just part of any interaction process, as I see it. One's ability go gauge people's dispositions is limited in real life as well - you don't know what's going on inside peoples' heads, and can only extrapolate based on your assessment of what they do/say and how well you know them. I think it'd add to the realism of the game if it allowed for the player to actually err occasionally in his assessment of how much certain characters had approved/disapproved of certain things. 

I don't disagree with your point for the most part. I just think that in almost every circumstance, someone who knows what to look for can come away with a highly accurate idea of how the other person really feels even if they're masking their voice.  A lot of people don't know what to look for however, or they simply don't pay enough attention.  And until it's possible to refine the game down to that level, I prefer things the way they are.

[Booglarize]

Vim wrote...


I don't disagree with your point for the most part. I just think that in almost every circumstance, someone who knows what to look for can come away with a highly accurate idea of how the other person really feels even if they're masking their voice.  A lot of people don't know what to look for however, or they simply don't pay enough attention.  And until it's possible to refine the game down to that level, I prefer things the way they are.

Maybe, but that's not always the way things were... I'm thinking of a game like Baldur's Gate 2 - where if you, say, pissed Viconia off badly enough, your only means of knowing it would have been by interpreting what she said - and since only a few of the lines were voice-acted all you really had was the text. And still, it was well-written enough to get the message across quite clearly (of course if you were desperate enough, you could open up your save game and check the variables like LoveTalk or ViconiaRomanceActive or what have you, but it was rarely necessary unless the game was bugging or something).

If they get that basic mechanic right, and maybe supplement it with good voice-acting and character animations, then I don't think we'd need any additional handholding. To take the example of Morrigan in the game - things that she really approves of are fairly obvious - such as helping her out with the Flemeth quest, or giving her that mirror that she talks about. And also things that she really disapproves of - like calling her a **** or unilaterally ending a relationship. Then there are things that move away from the two extremes but are still somewhat obvious - following or ignoring a piece of advice that she gives, agreeing or disagreeing with something she says or siding with or against her in some argument. Then there are things like her random reactions to things you do which, while admittedly hard to gauge accurately without some numerical reference, are usually minor enough that the ambiguity doesn't really matter all that much.

As for someone like Sten, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that he'd be much harder to assess without being able to see his numerical approval ratings. I think he was meant to be one of the characters that's tougher to figure out, in contrast with someone more obvious than Zevran. 

[Mass Fraud]

I don't know why this bothers me so much, but it does.

I guess since I played through the game several times over, that I got tired of chatting it up and giving gifts to my companions that it kinda pisses me off that now all that work is for nothing (except for the personal quest). I now know that it's worthless to continue chatting with them after you receive their personal quest or something specific to them, and I won't bother with wasting my time with them anymore......

[Loc'n'lol]

Mass Fraud wrote...

I won't bother with wasting my time with them anymore......

Except maybe... you know... for your own enjoyment ?
Why do you bother wasting your time playing the game in the first place ?

[Mass Fraud]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...

I won't bother with wasting my time with them anymore......

Except maybe... you know... for your own enjoyment ?
Why do you bother wasting your time playing the game in the first place ?

I enjoy making progress, instead of going nowhere.

[Bryy_Miller]

David Gaider wrote...

"But you were my friend!"
"Who, you? Nah!"
"But I got you and Felsi back together!"
"Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
"I defended you on the forums!"
"BURP."

... wow. Just wow. That is great.

[Jack o Smiles]

I have no idea why they chose to go with this particular model, they just did.It's designed to start off from netural and gradually go up or down and reveal content. Reseting the meter for the sake of an expansion is the simpliest way of dealing with it.  It doesn't make much sense I agree but they're not going to redesign the whole system.

My thing is if they wanted to reset the approval ratings system for gameplay purposes, why did they not reset the degrading approval bonus system as well? I just fed Oggie a beverage and was awarded "+6". Does not seem like they considered gameplay at all. I want my ninjaed points back!

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Alcohol kills brain cells. He drank so much between Origins and Awakenings that he barely remembers you. ROFL!

I wonder if it's possible to save all the alcoholic beverages from Origins and give them to him in Awakenings. I usually keep the 3 maps and give one to Anders, Nathaniel, and Oghren. I get a +5 for Anders and Nathaniel, but only a +1 for Oghren. I don't know what the drinks would be worth.

[ShinsFortress]

David Gaider wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...
If this is seriously the case, who in their right mind would work in Oghren's approval in Awakening now?
Now that I know that it doesn't carry over, I suddenly don't give a crap about how my companion cares about me, especially since there's no romance.

If your only concern is how things could possibly affect future stories, and not how they affect this one, then why do anything? Nothing is guaranteed to carry over in any fashion -- things exist as they are to make the game you're actually playing a better one, not to affect some hypothetical future game.

Am quite new to Awakenings, but I find this logic flawed, as Oghren is only 1/6 of recruitable companions that were also in Origins.  Let that 'system' stand for all the rest, or maybe -5 to -40 dip.  But -50 approval for him since last meeting?  Pfft.  I also remember the news of the terrible 1.03 that came with Awakenings.  Bad QA, breaking a core mechanic!

Other than that, I rather like Awakenings and find myself in the opposite situation to what last year I guessed I would be in.  Uninstalling everything to do with ME and firing up DA again....

[TEWR]

Jack o Smiles wrote...
My thing is if they wanted to reset the approval ratings system for gameplay purposes, why did they not reset the degrading approval bonus system as well? I just fed Oggie a beverage and was awarded "+6". Does not seem like they considered gameplay at all. I want my ninjaed points back!

Indeed. It's a bit baffling how they didn't even consider this as possible, along with the fact that they've done nothing to try and fix it in the year or two Awakening has been released.

Even now with DAII being finished, they've said they'll still "patch that game as needed". Yet to this day, Origins still suffers from some pretty bad bugs that haven't been fixed -- Oghren's approval glitch and Velanna's quest rarely triggering being two, in Awakening even! -- and I doubt ever will be fixed.

I mean, it's even worse when they've made it a point to tie certain factors to epilogue endings, and Oghren's epilogue and Velanna's epilogue are... tied to their quests, which more often then not cannot be triggered or completed due to their respective bugs.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 juillet 2012 - 02:36 .