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[jklinders]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...

How may I ask. The type of comm unit Shep and TIM used cannot be hacked. Shep can only communicate with TIM on that thing through some kind of ME based techno magic. Chat with EDI in the Comm room for full details.

I don't know, I'm not terribly knowledgable about the ins-and-outs of impossible communications systems that could never possibly exist in real-life. However TIM makes it very clear why he doesn't tell you. I have yet to hear a logical reason why he'd betray Shepard like that after going to great expense to ressurect him and provide him the tools necessary to stop the Collectors.

His reason is semi plausible. But it betrays a pattern of behaviour. He truly believes that he is the only person who can handle all the facts. He keeps his subordinates under a shroud of need to know. If he does not trust me, the feeling is mutual. This not the way to handle things. If Shep is his most important asset, he needs to give that asset the tools it needs to succeed.
Lack of trust is the number one reason I flip the bird at him at the end. I was half convinced that he had the right approach, but at every turn he showed disrespect by withholding information. What he needs is a good HR manger, and more importantly be man enough to listen to opinions that have not origionated from his own divine brain.

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

And if Shepard gets captured or killed, the whole Lazarus Cell is a waste.  TIM took an unreasonable risk; it panned out, but only through sheer luck and no skill or good judgment on TIM's part.

That's purely your opinion and frankly I don't think your own judgement is very sound.

Okay.  If our government had a war strategy that hinged on some soldiers being led into an ambush against an unknown enemy, totally outnumbered and outgunned, and then somehow fighting their way out of it, would you have faith in your leadership?  Keep in mind that your government has spent years trying to make this operation happen, and it on its own won't guarantee victory, but the failure of this op guarantees failure.  

There's no reason to think that the Collectors have such an accurate picture of Shepard's behavior so as to pick up when he's faking ignorance about going into an ambush.  If they have that clear of a psychological profile of Shepard the whole mission is ****ed anyway because they've got his reactions to anything they throw at him down pat.  

[Vaenier]

I knew it was a trap going in. How my Shepard could not see that was annoying... Tim should have told him anyway. if the Collectors transmitted the faulty turian code, they expected Shep to expect a trap, so it wouldnt have screwed anything up if TIM told Shep.

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...


Remember 'Cerberus IS humanity?' at the end of the game.

Yes and I agree with him.

If you're willing to sell out humanity for Cerberus than you can't exactly claim any sort of moral high ground here.  

[Terraneaux]

jklinders wrote...

His reason is semi plausible. But it betrays a pattern of behaviour. He truly believes that he is the only person who can handle all the facts. He keeps his subordinates under a shroud of need to know. If he does not trust me, the feeling is mutual. This not the way to handle things. If Shep is his most important asset, he needs to give that asset the tools it needs to succeed.
Lack of trust is the number one reason I flip the bird at him at the end. I was half convinced that he had the right approach, but at every turn he showed disrespect by withholding information. What he needs is a good HR manger, and more importantly be man enough to listen to opinions that have not origionated from his own divine brain.

That's why I'm hoping that there's an option for Renegade Sheps to take over Cerberus from TIM during ME3 (it should have been at the end of ME2).  The 'Cerberus Method' fits with the Renegade ethos, but TIM is not good enough for the job.  

[MassEffect762]

Paragon Femshep here.

Cerberus is just a tool, a very dangerous yet very useful tool to my Shepard.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

No.



Just because Hitler donated money to schools, does not mean he was advancing humanity in any way other then to eventually shape things to his view of how things should be.

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

If you're willing to sell out humanity for Cerberus than you can't exactly claim any sort of moral high ground here.  

I can absolutely claim the moral highground because anything less than a total loyalty to the species is heinous.

I agree.  I also think that you very clearly stated that you lauded loyalty to TIM and not to humanity.  If TIM was actually walking his talk I wouldn't have a problem, but his pattern of behavior suggests a more self-interested and ultimately short-sighted viewpoint.  

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

So he's like every officer ever. He trusts Shepard can get the job done and gives Shepard whatever information he feels he needs. You disagree with him... too bad. I mean I understand the frustration, but the fact is to TIM you are an asset, an important one at that, but not the only one.

The thing is, if TIM is dangerously incompetent, he needs to be removed or ignored.  His not telling Shepard about the trap on the Collector Ship veers straight past 'dangerously incompetent' and possible into 'actively malfeasant.'  That was information that Shepard 'needed to know.'

[MassEffect762]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

No.

Just because Hitler donated money to schools, does not mean he was advancing humanity in any way other then to eventually shape things to his view of how things should be.

Was it Hitlers own hard earned money or his gubment socialist cheese he used? Big difference. Not that I disagree.

[jklinders]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...


His reason is semi plausible. But it betrays a pattern of behaviour. He truly believes that he is the only person who can handle all the facts. He keeps his subordinates under a shroud of need to know.

So he's like every officer ever. He trusts Shepard can get the job done and gives Shepard whatever information he feels he needs. You disagree with him... too bad. I mean I understand the frustration, but the fact is to TIM you are an asset, an important one at that, but not the only one.

The difference lies in the intent. This superiority complex is a likely reason why so many projects by Cerberus blew up. It's like he is trying to play Darwin with his own staff. And TIM is not like an officer because every officer answers to someone higher than himself for his failures. When confronted by past failures TIM handwaves them off as not his fault.
Textbook megalomania. Never his fault, it was always someone else's failure. no accountability, power without balance. You want to work with that, fine. For my part, I run at the first opportunity.

I agree to disagree with you here. We are both set in our opinion. No point in further debate really.

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

I disagree with you because I've never seen any indication that TIM is not dedicated to the advancement of humanity, or at worst, believes that he is. The only conflict I may have with him would be if he and I disagreed on the direction humanity should go in for some reason.

What about when he leaked the information that you were working for Cerberus to the Council?  It would seem that if Shepard was trying to stop the Reapers, having support from the Council as well would be great.  Remember, what Cerberus was doing in ME1 was trying to create a super-soldier.  Well, it happened on its own, and he/she is named Shepard.  TIM does his best to make sure he can get his hands on him/her, and doesn't Shepard working for anyone else, even if Shepard could desperately use allies in this period of time.  What he *should* have done if he actually cared would have been to bring him back, let him return to the council, then use an undercover agent, someone like Miranda, to feed him money, resources, and information if the council is slacking.  Shepard has already shown that he/she is willing to flat-out mutiny against the Council if the mission is at stake, so he doesn't run the risk of Shep not doing the right thing if the council balks, but at the same time Shep would enjoy the simultaneous support of both the Council and Cerberus.  Instead, he attempts to engineer things so that Shepard is under his thumb as much as possible.  

[MassEffect762]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

Paragon Femshep here.

Cerberus is just a tool, a very dangerous yet very useful tool to my Shepard.

Agreed.  You don't have to like them or trust them IMO.  The councils' head is in their collective butt as far as we know.  Same goes for the Alliance.  What choice do we have right now?  The galaxy is facing the threat of total annihilation. 
So knowing what we know at the present state concerning the Reaper/Council/Alliance/Cerberus situation, what else is Shep going to do?

Keep on fighting the good fight, they don't call it the high road for nothing.

[jklinders]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...


The difference lies in the intent. This superiority complex is a likely reason why so many projects by Cerberus blew up. It's like he is trying to play Darwin with his own staff.

Certainly, as I said Cerberus takes great risk. Chasca blew up because they didn't know they were dealing with Reaper technology. The rachni facilitly went to crap because they underestimated their foe, just as the researchers at Noveria did. Lazarus was a success, though at great cost to resources. The "mole" certainly did a lot of damage at the end, but those losses were superficial. Also these losses don't mean that nothing was gained. Again I point to the loss of the team on the derelict Reaper. TIM states in his report that he suspected the crew would be lost but in losing them Cerberus would have an opportunity to study a new kind of husk as well as a chance to study indoctrination in depth. Surely you must admit the value in studying indoctrination. It's just unfortunate that the only way to study indoctrination is to lose people to it. It must be done though.

I know I know and the only way to know how well a bio or chem weapon works is to use it on people. You see where this is going.

The ends do not always justify the means.

Just one question before I sign off on this thread. Shepard shuts down something like 4 Cerberus projects in ME 1. This is about a third of their projects. at least 2 of which had already gotten out of hand. Batting .300 is good in baseball but crappy in a secret society. Why are we giving this guy more power again?

[Raphael diSanto]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

What about when he leaked the information that you were working for Cerberus to the Council?

I've seen plenty of speculation about his reasons. Ultimately when I spoke to them (actually I never even got the chance) it was clear that the Council wouldn't have cared that I was working for Cerberus. They don't even believe in the Reaper threat so what difference does it make?

This.

You may call it bad writing. You may call it a plot hole. It remains that In The Story, the council have both officially and unofficially disregarded the Reaper threat. Personally, I don't find it unrealistic, but then I believe 99.999% of all politicians are dumb power hungry lying, cheating backstabbing idiots who make TIM look like Mother Theresa.

Regardless of how you feel about them, without Cerberus we wouldn't even have a Mass Effect 2. Without Cerberus, Shepard would be dead. Done. Gone. Pushing up daisies. Purchasing agricultural real estate.

Do I like Cerberus? Hell no. Do I trust them? Even more hell no. Will I work with them? Abso-freakin'-lutely. They're the only ones heading in the same direction as all of my Sheps. (that is - taking on the Reapers)

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 11 mars 2010 - 01:14 .

[jklinders]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...

The ends do not always justify the means.

It does when the survival of the species is at stake, or the advancement/protection of its vital interests.

jklinders wrote

Why are we giving this guy more power again?

Shepard singlehandedly stopped Sovereign and the Collectors so why are we taking the Reaper threat seriously again?

Eh? Power blows up in TIM's face again and again. His incompetence has little to do with the threat from the reapers.

And if the means to the end of defeating the reapers is to become as bad as or worse than them, it could be pretty unpleasant. I'm not wanting to line up to my turn at the reaper making slurry machine. It is pretty obvious that is what TIM wanted the base for.